What ports should make a return to the 2021 Macbook Pro?

[JouniS]

I'd love to hear about this 6K HDMI display you've got? **** it, even 5K.

I don't think people use 5k/6k displays that often. 4k is far more common, as are various ultrawide displays.

Sounds like you attend a lot of amateur hour talks.

They are usually conferences with 50-100 participants working in closely related research areas. With 10-20 laptop changes per day, the chances are somebody forgets the adapter every day or two.

I've also been involved in organizing much larger volunteer-run conventions for a couple of decades. Once we start talking about thousands of people in hundreds of subevents, the numbers are inevitably against you. Anything that depends on people remembering to do something is a disaster waiting to happen. Things that work 99% of the time fail all the time. Things that are 99.9% reliable still fail at a steady pace. Even when something is 99.99% reliable, there is a reasonable chance for it to fail.

 

[pshufd]

I don't think people use 5k/6k displays that often. 4k is far more common, as are various ultrawide displays.


They are usually conferences with 50-100 participants working in closely related research areas. With 10-20 laptop changes per day, the chances are somebody forgets the adapter every day or two.

I've also been involved in organizing much larger volunteer-run conventions for a couple of decades. Once we start talking about thousands of people in hundreds of subevents, the numbers are inevitably against you. Anything that depends on people remembering to do something is a disaster waiting to happen. Things that work 99% of the time fail all the time. Things that are 99.9% reliable still fail at a steady pace. Even when something is 99.99% reliable, there is a reasonable chance for it to fail.

I have three 4k displays on my work system. I have QHD displays on my older systems.

I'm considering a 27 inch iMac and those are 5k - so a lot of people do have 5k displays. Anyone with a 27-inch iMac within the past couple of years. I guess that's why they have those 8 and 16 GB video card options.

 

[leman]

Personally, I would be ok with them adding an HDMI port and a card reader, assuming the number and functionality of USB-C ports does not diminish. If adding HDMI would mean gimping the universal connectivity of the laptop, then no thanks. USB-A is a hard pass, no need to set the industry back even more.

 

[darngooddesign]

Sounds like you attend a lot of amateur hour talks.

Welcome to the corporate world where all kinds of people have to connect their laptops to projectors.

 

[svanstrom]

Sounds like you attend a lot of amateur hour talks.

You know what, a lot of amateurs do have to give presentations; just like amateurs prepare themselves dinner, without first giving themselves a 5+ year professional chef education.

If only there was a computer company that's taken pride in their stuff just working for users… taken pride in that their stuff just works… If only.

 

[theluggage]

None of which explains away why one of each devices display outputs is hardwired to HDMI, nor disproves a theory that the same limitation would continue with a new Mac with built in hdmi.

Well, I guess neither of us has full M1 technical documentation to hand, but it's not hard to make an educated guess:

That hardwired HDMI port in the M1 Mini is most likely driven by the display stream that would otherwise have been hardwired to the internal display in an Air/2-port MBP (the primary purpose for which the M1 was designed). If the Mini hadn't used it for HDMI, it would have gone to waste: it can't be fed back to the TB controller, because they're now on the SoC.

The M1 is cut to the bone to work in ultra-portable, silent laptops, and adding switching to flexibly route the 2 display streams between (internal) TB controllers and the internal display was probably deemed a waste of silicon for the niche case of wanting a second TB display instead of the laptop's internal display.

So if Apple did add HDMI to a future MacBook - which needs a stream for the internal display - they couldn't implement it the way they do on the M1 Mini.

The new soc could support 8 displays, if one them is forced to use hdmi that’s worse than if it could be used from USB-c.

So you feel that any resources used on non-USB-C ports are inherently wasted, even in a hypothetical scenario where there's no real scarcity of resources? That's not reasoning - that's just you re-stating your opinion that you only want USB-C ports and ignoring all the practical arguments that people have put forward for dedicated ports.

You're ignoring the fact that each additional TB3/4 controller needs 4 PCIe lanes, 2 DisplayPort streams and extra power circuitry - whereas the equivalent of 1 PCIe lane and 1 DP stream would provide all the dedicated ports people are asking for.

The point you're refusing to see is that using USB-C to connect a DisplayPort or HDMI display is not better in every respect than using a dedicated port. It needlessly makes unrelated resources like display, power and peripheral I/O compete for a single, expensive-to-implement socket - necessitating external hubs/docks. For most purposes it is only offering the same, single USB 3.1, HDMI and DisplayPort connections as dedicated ports, while replacing simple, cheap, passive DP/HDMI cables with more expensive adapters containing active components with more points of failures.

 

[Stephen.R]

I don't think people use 5k/6k displays that often

I think you mean not many people use them. I'd imagine the people that do have them use them quite frequently.

However, it's good to know where you stand: **** anyone who wants to use high-end gear, a $12 adapter is just too much hassle.

 

[Stephen.R]

With 10-20 laptop changes per day, the chances are somebody forgets the adapter every day or two.

Sorry Joe, your new laptop can't run two 6K displays like the last ones did, you see there are a lot of forgetful people out in the world.

I notice you don't seem to mention any of them ever forgetting the ****ing laptop. Coincidentally if they had forgot the laptop, and had the adapter - a recent iPad Air or iPad Pro could also use the same adapter, to present "How to live life with the memory of a goldfish" or whatever it is they're presenting before they forget that too.

 

[Stephen.R]

Well, I guess neither of us has full M1 technical documentation to hand, but it's not hard to make an educated guess:

Emphasis on guess. It's funny how often you contradict your own comments. One moment, Apple was at the mercy of the CPU/iGPU Intel provided, and couldn't do anything else (which I can actually agree with to some extent) but then the next moment, talking about their whiz bang new Intel replacement, and somehow they still couldn't solve the same issues?

But that's really what it comes down to, and what I've been trying to get at. It's not about whether Apple can make a laptop with a HDMI port that doesn't negatively impact other aspects. It's whether they will. Plenty of companies could technically do plenty of things. Doesn't mean they do those things.

So you feel that any resources used on non-USB-C ports are inherently wasted, even in a hypothetical scenario where there's no real scarcity of resources?

Based on how they've been implemented so far in e.g. the mini, yes. A common port gives equal flexibility all users. Single-use/legacy/"special case" ports give less flexibility to all users, and slight convenience to some, at the expense of others.

 

[deeddawg]

This seems weird to me. Flat edges means it will be really difficult to pick up the device from the table. Imagine a flush iPhone 5 without camera bump and that it weights 2kg. This is also why the edges of most (all?) laptops are not flat.

I do agree it would look nice. Like a big iPad Pro.

No, two inches thick and seven pounds makes it difficult to pick up the device from the table.

There'd still be feet.

 

[darngooddesign]

No, two inches thick and seven pounds makes it difficult to pick up the device from the table.

Ooooooo seven whole pounds. LOL

Sounds like someone never had to lug their SE-30 to LAN parties or home during the holidays.

My shoulder is still dented from that padded travel bag.

 

[smoking monkey]

Where the **** are you people going that you just find random HDMI cables hanging out of **** and plug your laptop in to it, and never think that you might need to take your own HDMI cable anyway?

You're being silly again. Far more places or other people have an HDMI cable for whatever reason than a USB C to HDMI connector. That's a given in 2021 still. Will change in time though.

With a flip out handle so you can pick it up.

also only available in key lime.

You joke, but it was awesome. Best Apple Computer I've ever owned. Although the upcoming 16M1x is probably gonna go close I'd say. My 17" was a stonking piece of kit as well.

I had one of those iBooks, personally I really liked the lime but I ended up with the special edition grey and white one (I think it was higher spec than the colorful ones).

I had a Key Lime but it was the SE version. Grey, Key Lime and Blue had SE versions IIRC.

-----------

The fact that the rumors only point to Magsafe and SD card means I reckon we won't be getting USB A. It would have been nice, but if it doesn't have it, so be it. I'll live with the dongle and get on with using my computer.

 

[svanstrom]

You're being silly again. Far more places or other people have an HDMI cable for whatever reason than a USB C to HDMI connector. That's a given in 2021 still. Will change in time though.

At this point I think he's just having some sort of identity crisis; that if the world works the way the rest of us live in it he's just not as special as he thinks he is, for having a few extra cables in his bag.

I honestly don't mean that as an attack in any way, it's just that I've never seen anyone get so damn upset about everyone else living happily (without having their professionalism negatively judged) without all the "musts" that he's judging people for if they don't have.

Having a regular sized HDMI-port is really all that's expected of people expected to hook their device up to something like this; and it's really the only way to come prepared.

The room you're giving your presentation in will be adjusted for that reality; and what it will not be adjusted for is people running around with their own cables looking for ports. Like you can't in the middle of a meeting refuse to the use the ducking cable infront of you, and start running around looking behind the tv/projector for a port, and then a table for your too short cable to reach, and then the remote to maybe have to switch "channel", and so on.

 

[darngooddesign]

The room you're giving your presentation in will be adjusted for that reality; and what it will not be adjusted for is people running around with their own cables looking for ports. Like you can't in the middle of a meeting refuse to the use the ducking cable infront of you, and start running around looking behind the tv/projector for a port, and then a table for your too short cable to reach, and then the remote to maybe have to switch "channel", and so on.

I believe his suggestion is that if you work in an environment where you have to hook up to HDMI projectors, you just bring an adapter to your meetings so you can use the projector's regular HDMI cable; I would just keep it in my desk at work, like I would with a mouse or second charger, so I didn't have to make sure that it is in my bag each day. He's not suggesting you refuse to use the ducking HDMI cable in front of you.

 

[senttoschool]

I believe his suggestion is that if you work in an environment where you have to hook up to HDMI projectors, you just bring an adapter to your meetings so you can use the projector's regular HDMI cable; I would just keep it in my desk at work, like I would with a mouse or second charger, so I didn't have to make sure that it is in my bag each day. He's not suggesting you refuse to use the ducking HDMI cable in front of you.

I see two problems with this suggestion of his:

1. When you're about to present, the last thing you want to think about is "where the heck is my adapter? Did I bring it?" Heck, people often get so nervous about their presentations that they just forget to bring the adapter.

2. What happens if you lost your adapter? These are tiny things so they're easy to replace. Buy a backup adapter? Where does it end?

 

[537635]

1. When you're about to present, the last thing you want to think about is "where the heck is my adapter? Did I bring it?" Heck, people often get so nervous about their presentations that they just forget to bring the adapter.

I can tell you don't do a lot of presentations.

If you would, you would know that it is second nature to know exactly where your VGA and HDMI adapters are. Really, many places, especially in smaller rooms, stills use VGA.

Oh, and any decent place always has one set of adapters per room.

HDMI to VGA
USB-C to HDMI
Display port to HDMI
Mini display port to HDMI

It's been 6 years. It will a couple more for the projectors and TVs to support USB-C.

 

[senttoschool]

I can tell you don't do a lot of presentations.

If you would, you would know that it is second nature to know exactly where your VGA and HDMI adapters are. Really, many places, especially in smaller rooms, stills use VGA.

Oh, and any decent place always has one set of adapters per room.

HDMI to VGA
USB-C to HDMI
Display port to HDMI
Mini display port to HDMI

It's been 6 years. It will a couple more for the projectors and TVs to support USB-C.

I'm a tech product manager so I pretty much do presentations to my team nearly every day. This wasn't really a problem in the office because I just left my adapter on my work table or the conference room already had an adapter. Our tech team is a Mac shop so dongles are pretty much everywhere.

The problem was, when I had to travel outside to give a presentation at a customer's office or when I gave tech talks at random places or I'm in a hotel and wanted to plug my laptop into the TV. Adapters/Compatability were an issue. "It just works" isn't really true.

I don't remember a time I saw a projector/TV that supports USB-C. It was always through a dongle. In addition, I can't even find a TV that supports USB-C for sale on Amazon. That tells you how much USB-C adoption is for projectors/TVs.

PS. I live and work in San Francisco/Silicon Valley. Sometimes I even had to travel to Cupertino (pre-pandemic).

 

[537635]

I'm a tech product manager so I pretty much do presentations to my team nearly every day. This wasn't really a problem in the office because I just left my adapter on my work table or the conference room already had an adapter.

The problem was, when I had to travel outside to give a presentation at a customer's office or when I gave tech talks at random places. Adapters/Compatability were an issue. "It just works" isn't really true.

I don't remember a time I saw a projector/TV that supports USB-C. It was always through a dongle. In addition, I can't even find a TV that supports USB-C for sale on Amazon. That tells you how much USB-C adoption is for projectors/TVs.

PS. I live and work in San Francisco/Silicon Valley. Sometimes I even had to travel to Cupertino.

So you want VGA port on a new Macbook also?


I mean, really? USB-C to HDMI is a small adapter, you can bring in the HDMI cable from either side (flexibility, remember how old Macbooks had HDMI on the right side, which was often inconvinient?).

I'm based in Europe, travel all over the world (or did). Inside our offices, I don't use cables, but AirPlay.

 

[senttoschool]

So you want VGA port on a new Macbook also?


I mean, really? USB-C to HDMI is a small adapter, you can bring in the HDMI cable from either side (flexibility, remember how old Macbooks had HDMI on the right side, which was often inconvinient?).

I'm based in Europe, travel all over the world (or did). Inside our offices, I don't use cables, but AirPlay.

In San Francisco/Silicon Valley, It's been years since I encountered a VGA device. And when there is a VGA device, there will 100% be a VGA to HDMI adapter next to it. Not the case for HDMI to USB-C.

You're just repeating yourself over and over again. The point is not that adapters are small/cheap. It's that we don't want adapters, period.

Adapters/hubs are annoying. You can lose them or forget them, they can break, and they're often not up to spec.

I'll give you two examples:

With my M1 MBA Air, I purchased what I thought was a good quality hub for $40. It turns out, this hub doesn't support 4k@60hz, only 4k@30hz. I didn't think or check this since I assumed by now that these hubs are always up to spec. This is an issue because I have a 4k 60ghz monitor that I'd like to use. Now I have to purchase another hub. I'm super technical. But imagine a 40-year old mom or a 20-year old art student having to figure all this out.

A second issue is the Logitech MX 2S Bluetooth mouse I purchased to use with my M1 Air. I thought, Bluetooth! Great! No dongles/connection needed. Nope. Latency and connection issues with BT. So now I have to try using the supplied USB-A receiver to minimize these issues. I have to plug the USB-A receiver into my hub and bring the hub along whenever I want to use my WIRELESS mouse, which could be at my home office desk, the kitchen desk, or in a local coffee shop. It's honestly dumb as hell having to lug along an entire hub just to use my wireless mouse.

These are real-life inconvenient issues that can easily be solved if there are USB-A and HDMI ports.

 

[senttoschool]

It's been 6 years. It will a couple more for the projectors and TVs to support USB-C.

That's right. There isn't a single TV on Amazon that supports USB-C as far as I know. Sorry, HDMI is not going away. HDMI 2.1 is the standard for high-end TVs now. The display industry has not said they will switch to USB-C.

 

[pshufd]

That's right. There isn't a single TV on Amazon that supports USB-C as far as I know. Sorry, HDMI is not going away. HDMI 2.1 is the standard for high-end TVs now. The display industry has not said they will switch to USB-C.

If Apple brings back HDMI on their laptops, then I think that it could be longer for USB-C.

I'm staring at a 2019 gaming laptop a few feet away and it has USB-C. And USB-A. And HDMI. And Ethernet. Probably a few more as well. There are lots of PCs shipping with the other ports. Sure the XPS 13 followed Apple but will Dell follow Apple again and put back the ports? I'm on my 2014 MacBook Pro and don't have to deal with this drama.

 

[senttoschool]

If Apple brings back HDMI on their laptops, then I think that it could be longer for USB-C.

There just isn't a plan to replace HDMI for USB-C. All the display makers such as Samsung, LG, Acer, Asus, HP, Dell have never said they plan to deprecate HDMI.

We won't start seeing Display 2.0 (USB-C) devices until at least the end of 2021. And guess what will happen? There will be different implementations. Some manufactures will fail to support the full Display 2.0 specs. Some cables won't work. Some USB-C 4.0 ports won't have DP 2.0. In other words, it'll be the same mess as today.

Meanwhile, we have HDMI 2.1 TVs, GPUs, motherboards out today.

 

[Apple Knowledge Navigator]

The point is not that adapters are small/cheap. It's that we don't want adapters, period.

Someone who gets it. This is the whole basis of the argument - that "it just works" is only the case when you buy into other products.

USB-C is only going to become convenient once other manufacturers and technologies have caught up; and the truth is that they haven't yet.

The reasons are likely both economical (the cost of switching) and the need rather than the want (that is to say, if HDMI doesn't cause users any inconvenience, why bother to switch to another technology? How would any number of peripherals benefit from USB-C, aside from joining the pack?)

HDMI and USB-A are available on desktop Macs, so the only logical reasons that Apple removed them from their notebook line was out of Trash Can Mac Pro-esque stubbornness and because the current chassis design with its taper couldn't accommodate the aforementioned I/O.

Those against the idea of other I/O returning also need to keep in mind that Apple isn't going sacrifice other aspects of the Mac experience just to build these in. It's your choice if you use them or not, and if you're fully in the USB-C space, then just keep using those products.

 

[537635]

You're just repeating yourself over and over again. The point is not that adapters are small/cheap. It's that we don't want adapters, period.

I guess everybody is repeating themselves, because we have a different philosophy when it comes to tech.

I will gladly help push a universal port forward and don't care about a couple of small adapters. USB-C gives me flexibility which I couldn't have before with single-function ports. I also clearly understand that any additional port in a small device comes with trade-offs in terms of volume, chassis thickness and design.

I think USB-C is a far superior port to HDMI, etc. A company like Apple pushing this forward means that new devices will come with USB-C as well. Everything peripheral I bought in the last year or two is USB-C. Only stuff that has a legacy design, still ships with micro-USB.

That's it. We won't come to an understanding, because we want different things in tech. Somebody made a really great analogy with NASA before. You're like NASA. Let's use those Space Shuttle boosters from the 60s fifty years later. We've been to the Moon, we are the best.

I'm like SpaceX. Iterate, advance, explore new solutions.

 

[537635]

USB-C is only going to become convenient once other manufacturers and technologies have caught up; and the truth is that they haven't yet.

If Apple thought like that, we would still be using optical drives, HDDs and VGA ports. There has to be somebody, who pushes forward.

This is really toxic thinking. Let everybody else take risks, I'll just sit back and stay in the past.