What ports should make a return to the 2021 Macbook Pro?

[panzer06]

“Constraints” are just other requirements. Software gets requirements too. In case you ever work on a large project you can download NASA’s manual and there are ISO/IEEE guides if you ever wanted to be ISO certified for quality. Sure, you can start out with a ridiculously long list before eliminating things as you design. It’ll just take more time. But you don’t start designing and then figure out what you want to make. In this case, you don’t figure out what ports you can fit in after you have designed the case and board. You make a list of what you want/require, allocate engineering estimates (space, weight, power, cost), and then iterate diving further down revising as detailed analysis is available.

And no I am not being disingenuous, there are so many things we don’t know about the computer that authoritatively stating “if they add MagSafe I lose my ability to connect USB-C” is ludicrous hyperbole. It’s a brand new exterior with a brand new interior.

The switch to M chips has tons of variables and implications. Thermal and power needs on the M1 computers went down. In the old packaging Apple couldn’t optimize that change easily, but they can in a new case. But when going to the 16”, will it also be a full SoC? And how much space/weight can they save with the correct cooling? Is the fan and heat pipe smaller? What about graphics? Those are currently discrete. Can they fit enough RAM on the SoC? What’s the PCIe bus and how many TB controllers? How many ports to each controller? What about internal storage? Are they saving money by going to SoC or does it cost more? What about board complexity and cost? Which battery cells?

Going to the exterior: how thick will the screen be? What materials are they using which will affect weight and thickness (to include interior volume)? What manufacturing methods are they using and how does that effect cost? How will “squaring the sides” affect interior volume, stiffness and strength, usability, or cost?

I’m sure we could list dozens of other variables. None of us know definitive answers to these questions. We especially don’t know any answers about cost impacts of each decision. Anyone stating that they know the trades offs is pulling it out of their you know what.

If people were asking about quadrupling battery life or cutting thickness in half, we could speak to those trade offs because they are big enough scale. But a MagSafe or HDMI port is maybe 1-2% of the total volume and weight? Probably similar in parts cost. That’s too far in the weeds for people like us with so little information to make definitive statements given how much is changing.



I don’t even have to look that up, that HDMI measurement is clearly wrong. Are you looking at the width? The HDMI fit in the MacBooks which were 18mm at the thickest with rounded edges. If the HDMI were 14mm that would leave only 4mm for the screen, structure above and below the port, and the curvature. It’s not even a plausible number.

There are mini and micro hdmi connectors too but the would require people to buy different cables. Ah screw it. Just leave it with 4 USB C

 

[Kung gu]

There are mini and micro hdmi connectors too but the would require people to buy different cables. Ah screw it. Just leave it with 4 USB C

nope give me MagSafe and SD and 4 USB C

 

[Hessel89]

Please, just keep it TB/USB-C. One cable for all.. and really, how much does a an A to C adapter actually cost? (If you haven’t upgraded to USB C cables yet) A couple euro..

 

[leman]

The 2016 Macbook Pro is exactly how a very wealthy designer would design it. Form over function. Minimal. Purity. Anyone who has ever worked with a tech product designer (not product manager, not engineer) knows that if you leave a designer like that unchecked, they will always choose form over function.

There is no doubt that 2016 design is strongly motivated by aesthetics and symmetry (from both external and internal perspective), but your's is an incredibly one-sided way to put put. Referring to USB-C as form over function is just silly. It's a universal port for crying out loud. It offers more expandability and flexibility than any other Mc laptop ever.

I mean, we have enough data in this small poll showing that most people would rather have old ports back than to keep USB-C only and people here are much more open to forward-thinking than your typical user.

If it were up to "most people", we'd still be sitting on serial ports and VGA because "what do I do with my old printer". Yes, the industry and the users are conservative. That can't be there reason why we can't have good things. Just buy a new cable and move on. It's 2021 after all.

This is a graph of Mac marketshare. The 2016 design decisions clearly failed. People voted with their wallets and Apple is backtracking nearly everything they did with the 2016 generation.

View attachment 1720618

I am puzzled how are you reading all this into that graph. All I can see that the US growth slowed down a bit from around 2010 on and stabilized at around 12% USA from 2012 on. There is also a huge seasonal component that seems to all but disappear starting around 2016 that makes the graph even more difficult to read.

Anyway, what's really relevant is that Apple's global market share was 7.2% in 2015 and 8.2% in 2020 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Market_share_of_personal_computer_vendors). The net growth was positive. No evidence whatsoever to suggest that users are leaving Apple in droves because of USB-C or anything else. The growth has indeed slowed down (and the market share even went down) in 2018-2019, but one also has to consider factors such as global PC market decline and Intel's problems with bringing out new CPUs. As the result of the later Macs were only updated once per year after 2016, and the updates themselves were quite lackluster. Before 2016, we had two updates per year, which would obviously motivate stronger sales.

By the way, here is another MR graph, this time for 2019:

The same 2016-2018 span suddenly looks quite different, no?

 

[JouniS]

There is no doubt that 2016 design is strongly motivated by aesthetics and symmetry (from both external and internal perspective), but your's is an incredibly one-sided way to put put. Referring to USB-C as form over function is just silly. It's a universal port for crying out loud. It offers more expandability and flexibility than any other Mc laptop ever.

That's another form of aesthetics. The kind engineers are often guilty of when they are too far separated from customers. They create a clean and elegant general design that appeals to their aesthetic sense. Somebody else must then worry about all the ugly special cases that are needed to support actual user needs.

 

[Stephen.R]

Somebody else must then worry about all the ugly special cases that are needed to support actual user needs.

So you'd prefer instead that they cater to those special cases directly, and give anyone who isn't in that niche a "**** you, who needs flexibility" Hallmark card?

 

[senttoschool]

There is no doubt that 2016 design is strongly motivated by aesthetics and symmetry (from both external and internal perspective), but your's is an incredibly one-sided way to put put. Referring to USB-C as form over function is just silly. It's a universal port for crying out loud. It offers more expandability and flexibility than any other Mc laptop ever.

I'm not referring to USB-C as form over function. If I did, could you quote me on that?

I'm referring to the whole 2016 design as form over function, including removing all ports except USB-C and headphone jack. You should read my post again.

If it were up to "most people", we'd still be sitting on serial ports and VGA because "what do I do with my old printer". Yes, the industry and the users are conservative. That can't be there reason why we can't have good things. Just buy a new cable and move on. It's 2021 after all.

This reads like a false equivalence fallacy. VGA was replaced as a standard. HDMI has not been replaced as the standard for displays nor is there a plan to deprecate HDMI by the industry. USB-A continues to be the standard for accessories that don't require Thunderbolt speeds. IE. a mouse or keyboard or webcam does not need Thunderbolt speeds and the extra costs associated with switching to USB-C is mostly not worth it. Xbox Series X doesn't even come with a single USB-C port - just 3 USB-A ports.

I am puzzled how are you reading all this into that graph.

?

The growth has indeed slowed down (and the market share even went down)

 

[JouniS]

So you'd prefer instead that they cater to those special cases directly, and give anyone who isn't in that niche a "**** you, who needs flexibility" Hallmark card?

Not instead of but in addition to. Make the clean general design first and then add support for all the special cases users actually need. If a typical desktop PC has ~20 ports of various types, there is no fundamental reason why a high-end laptop could not have a few special-purpose ports in addition to 4 USB-C ports.

 

[macintoshmac]

I'd say they should bring back all possible ports to give people something new to complain about. Dongle Life has been going on for 5 years now, we need to see some new complaints.

That said, I would like to see HDMI, SDXC, USB-C MagSafe somehow, and that's about it. I can live with USB-C and without USB-A. I changed my cables and flash drives to USB-C and have not looked back. Now on my 2017 MBA I use the old-style drives and cables. What I missed on my 2016 was SDXC and HDMI, along with a MagSafe-like charging solution. If they come up with a USB-C to MagSafe cable, that would be amazing.

 

[Stephen.R]

Make the clean general design first and then add support for all the special cases users actually need.

Ok, so plenty of users actually need wired ethernet, there are surely >0 users who actually need Thunderbolt 3 ports, heck some probably need DVI or VGA, or even Serial ports. We haven't even started to mention Firewire or eSATA, much less the various analog audio and video connection types. What about XLR?


So would you happy to have a laptop with 4 TB3 ports and all of those special-case ports? I'm pretty sure it's going to get significantly thicker, if not heavier as well.

 

[Stephen.R]

If they come up with a USB-C to MagSafe cable, that would be amazing.

What, like these? https://www.amazon.com/s?k=magnetic...able+macbook,aps,391&ref=nb_sb_ss_ts-a-p_1_37

 

[svanstrom]

I mean, we have enough data in this small poll showing that most people would rather have old ports back than to keep USB-C only and people here are much more open to forward-thinking than your typical user.

Before you go and twist my part of said data to fit your narrative I'd like to point out that I'll take form over function any day if you otherwise make the thing lose its character…

If you give me the extra ports I want while compromising too much with looks, bezels, battery, weight, thickness, and so on… then that extra unwantedness becomes way more than the unwantedness of the adapters/hubs.

If I'd wanted to make these compromises I already would be buying my hardware from the non-Apple part of the isle…

 

[JouniS]

Ok, so plenty of users actually need wired ethernet, there are surely >0 users who actually need Thunderbolt 3 ports, heck some probably need DVI or VGA, or even Serial ports. We haven't even started to mention Firewire or eSATA, much less the various analog audio and video connection types. What about XLR?

There is no need to go from one extreme to another. The best trade-off is usually somewhere between the extremes.

USB-A, HDMI, and SD cards would fit in a MBP without making it any thicker, so supporting them would be a pretty obvious choice. And if Apple decided to make a new MBP model similar to the old unibody laptops, I would choose it over the thin MBPs without the slightest hesitation. Such laptops could then have 10 Gb Ethernet and maybe also other ports if people use them often enough.

 

[537635]

USB-A, HDMI, and SD cards would fit in a MBP without making it any thicker, so supporting them would be a pretty obvious choice.

This is not true.

 

[Falhófnir]

This is not true.

View attachment 1720720

If the report about the bottom taper being eliminated is true, the flat edges will be thicker than currently so there probably would be room, depending on if and how much more thickness they shaved off the machine overall. It could well end up looking like the 2015 but without the extra battery bulge on the bottom.

 

[Stephen.R]

There is no need to go from one extreme to another. The best trade-off is usually somewhere between the extremes.

Well there's no need to change anything - those "special cases" can all be accommodated right now.

USB-A, HDMI, and SD cards would fit in a MBP without making it any thicker, so supporting them would be a pretty obvious choice.

What happened to

add support for all the special cases users actually need

You've gone from "add support for all the special cases users actually need" to "add support for the special cases I want" in.. two posts.

 

[JouniS]

You've gone from "add support for all the special cases users actually need" to "add support for the special cases I want" in.. two posts.

I mentioned the ports 1) that "users actually need" in the sense "many people often use" and 2) that can be added without major changes to the design. (I personally don't care about the SD card reader, because I've never used the integrated one in any computer I've had.) The fourth commonly used port (Ethernet) would require making the laptop thicker, so adding it would probably be a poor trade-off. At least for the existing MBP models.

 

[Stephen.R]

I mentioned the ports 1) that "users actually need" in the sense "many people often use"

Many people often use DisplayPort and Ethernet. Also, FYI saying "all" as in "all the special use cases users actually need" doesn't mean "something that many people use". It means all. The hint is that you used the word.. "all". Well unless you're going to arbitrarily decide what people "need"?

The fourth commonly used port (Ethernet) would require making the laptop thicker, so adding it would probably be a poor trade-off.

As I've mentioned multiple times, every Mac mini since 2018 is 'hobbled', with 1 video output channel forced to the HDMI port. The Intel mini supports 3 displays, but 1 has to be HDMI. The M1 mini supports two, but 1 has to be HDMI.

The 2019 16" MBP will run 2x 4K or 1x6K over TB3/USB-C (which you can connect to a TB3/USB-C/DP/HDMI/DVI/VGA display of your choosing) in addition to the built in display. If a hypothetical 2021 replacement added HDMI, but meant that the "second" 4K display had to connect via HDMI, would you consider that a "pretty obvious choice" or "a poor trade-off".


I've been asking that same question for almost as long as this rumour has been discussed, and so far I've not found a single person who's arguing for HDMI ports, willing to even acknowledge that it's a possible outcome if Apple were to add back HDMI. Not one. Most ignore it, one started going on about magic 8 balls and how "Apples new SoC means they can do what they want" while ignoring the Silicon elephant in the room that is the M1 Mini.


So, how say you: is trading 'universal' functionality (i.e. being able to run all displays via a TB3/USB-C port) for a "special case" port that "steals" one output (HDMI, or DisplayPort, or anything - I'm actually equally opposed to any non-universal, high speed ports at this point) worth it, with the acknowledgement that it'll negatively affect those who don't use that port?

What about data? - Let's say they were going to add two USB3.2 10Gbit ports, a 10Gbit ethernet port, and a modern card reader (that isn't hobbled by an internal USB2 bus like the 2015 one was). That's pretty close to the bandwidth for an entire extra TB3 port (or technically a pair of ports if they shared a controller like the previous models, but the expectation seems to be 1port = 1 controller with their new stuff). Is it worth it, to put in those single-use ports, either at the expense of one of the four TB3 ports (or controllers), or at the expense of an additional TB3 port (or controller)?

 

[Never mind]

If I were a betting man I would bet a cookie that it will be an SD card reader and 4 USB – C ports. That’s it

 

[crevalic]

Many people often use DisplayPort and Ethernet. Also, FYI saying "all" as in "all the special use cases users actually need" doesn't mean "something that many people use". It means all. The hint is that you used the word.. "all". Well unless you're going to arbitrarily decide what people "need"?


As I've mentioned multiple times, every Mac mini since 2018 is 'hobbled', with 1 video output channel forced to the HDMI port. The Intel mini supports 3 displays, but 1 has to be HDMI. The M1 mini supports two, but 1 has to be HDMI.

The 2019 16" MBP will run 2x 4K or 1x6K over TB3/USB-C (which you can connect to a TB3/USB-C/DP/HDMI/DVI/VGA display of your choosing) in addition to the built in display. If a hypothetical 2021 replacement added HDMI, but meant that the "second" 4K display had to connect via HDMI, would you consider that a "pretty obvious choice" or "a poor trade-off".


I've been asking that same question for almost as long as this rumour has been discussed, and so far I've not found a single person who's arguing for HDMI ports, willing to even acknowledge that it's a possible outcome if Apple were to add back HDMI. Not one. Most ignore it, one started going on about magic 8 balls and how "Apples new SoC means they can do what they want" while ignoring the Silicon elephant in the room that is the M1 Mini.


So, how say you: is trading 'universal' functionality (i.e. being able to run all displays via a TB3/USB-C port) for a "special case" port that "steals" one output (HDMI, or DisplayPort, or anything - I'm actually equally opposed to any non-universal, high speed ports at this point) worth it, with the acknowledgement that it'll negatively affect those who don't use that port?

What about data? - Let's say they were going to add two USB3.2 10Gbit ports, a 10Gbit ethernet port, and a modern card reader (that isn't hobbled by an internal USB2 bus like the 2015 one was). That's pretty close to the bandwidth for an entire extra TB3 port (or technically a pair of ports if they shared a controller like the previous models, but the expectation seems to be 1port = 1 controller with their new stuff). Is it worth it, to put in those single-use ports, either at the expense of one of the four TB3 ports (or controllers), or at the expense of an additional TB3 port (or controller)?

Very well said.

People are stuck obsessing about their ancient single use ports while not seeing the amazing advantages and flexibility general purpose thunderbolt ports bring. Yes, 2015 and older MacBooks had many different ports, but they also only had 1 or at best 2 thunderbolt ports (older and lower bandwidth btw). You'd have to stupid to either want to sacrifice one of the TB3 ports (either existing or instead of getting one extra) or their full functionality (as you mentioned regarding monitor connectivity) in 2021.

 

[Falhófnir]

If I were a betting man I would bet a cookie that it will be an SD card reader and 4 USB – C ports. That’s it

MagSafe was mentioned by name by both Kuo and Gurman so that's a pretty safe bet. Gurman even specified it would be a 'similar design to the previous incarnation of ‌MagSafe‌ on Mac notebooks'.

 

[xxray]

I have a hard time answering this.

One part of me says, I don't care what ports they add or if they add any at all, as long as they keep USB-C charging, at least 3 USB-C ports, and at least one USB-C on each side so I can charge my MBP from either side. I do want USB-C to be the future so I only have to worry about one type of I/O, and Apple adding back other ports will only encourage other I/O options to stick around for longer.

The other part of me misses the convenience of having an HDMI port and being able to just hook up my laptop to any TV, not having to worry about dongles for connecting the multiple USB-A devices I still have, or having to buy new dongles. I also wouldn't mind an ethernet port for when I want really stable internet connection with the lowest latency possible. The fact that Apple has been trying to get USB-C to be the one port for all doesn't change the fact that there are still so many different settings (home, office, friends'/family's houses) with devices that don't have USB-C ports. Even if you buy dongles, you have to worry about having them on hand whenever you might need them, might have to buy multiple of the same kind, and the price adds up.

I really don't care about MagSafe at all. I never really have my laptop in a position where the charging cord can be tripped on anyways. I guess as long as I still have predominantly USB-C ports that I can charge from, and I can charge from either side of the laptop, I'll be happy whether Apple adds back ports or not.

 

[Stephen.R]

The fact that Apple has been trying to get USB-C to be the one port for all

I don't think that's a fair characterisation, at all.

It's the one port that can do it all. It can do ethernet, it can do HDMI, it can do DisplayPort, it can do FibreChannel, etc etc. Sure, more things are using it natively, but I don't think anyone who knows what they're talking about expects all devices to use USB-C ports.

The point is that if you want to use your ports to run an eGPU, 10Gbit (or even two or three or four of them) ethernet, or a 6K display, or multiple 4K displays, or a hub with 8 USB3.0 ports each at full speed, or whatever - you're able to.

The other part of me misses the convenience of having an HDMI port and being able to just hook up my laptop to any TV

Where the **** are you people going that you just find random HDMI cables hanging out of **** and plug your laptop in to it, and never think that you might need to take your own HDMI cable anyway?

I've done the "plug a device (we used an iPad) into a hotel TV" thing - but guess what? We took a ****ing HDMI cable and a 30-pin to HDMI adapter (yes it was that long ago). If we were doing it today, with one of our new iPads, or the MBP - we'd take a USB-C to HDMI cable.

 

[xxray]

I don't think that's a fair characterisation, at all.

It's the one port that can do it all. It can do ethernet, it can do HDMI, it can do DisplayPort, it can do FibreChannel, etc etc. Sure, more things are using it natively, but I don't think anyone who knows what they're talking about expects all devices to use USB-C ports.

The point is that if you want to use your ports to run an eGPU, 10Gbit (or even two or three or four of them) ethernet, or a 6K display, or multiple 4K displays, or a hub with 8 USB3.0 ports each at full speed, or whatever - you're able to.


Where the **** are you people going that you just find random HDMI cables hanging out of **** and plug your laptop in to it, and never think that you might need to take your own HDMI cable anyway?

I've done the "plug a device (we used an iPad) into a hotel TV" thing - but guess what? We took a ****ing HDMI cable and a 30-pin to HDMI adapter (yes it was that long ago). If we were doing it today, with one of our new iPads, or the MBP - we'd take a USB-C to HDMI cable.

Why are you so angry? All I did was give my opinion, which was fairly neutral saying I mostly didn't really care either way as long as it stayed predominantly USB-C and I could charge on both sides of the laptop. You're arguing with me over particular semantics and when I mostly agree with you.

Jesus. Go take a walk or something dude. ?‍♂️

Things are already polarized enough online. Can I just share my opinion (again, which is mostly agreeing with you) without getting yelled at over text?

 

[Stephen.R]

All I did was give my opinion

All I did was give a response.