What ports should make a return to the 2021 Macbook Pro?

[darngooddesign]

Thats very true, and if you'd be so kind as to show me where I said "it's physically impossible to have more than two ports per side", you'd have a point.

"So what I really want to know, is how many that are clamouring for legacy ports, would still want them if they come at the expense of current functionality."

Your question implies that Apple can't add Magsafe, for example, without removing a USB-C port.

If someone had one hundred tuna sandwiches, and you said "you need more flavours", it's reasonable to think they might swap some of those hundred, for other flavours. If someone had two sandwiches and you said "you need more", it's reasonable to think they would probably get more sandwiches, of some kind.

Well the 13" Intel MBP has four sandwiches, while the 13" M1 MBP only has two sandwiches so it is reasonable to assume that there is room on the 13" M1 table for four sandwiches. And there is definitely room on the 16" table for six sandwiches.

 

[svanstrom]

Re the headphone jack. It's for music editing in garageband, FCP, Keynote or another other music app.

And that market is big enough, and the built-in DAC pro enough, to warrant that port to stick around? (Serious question.)

 

[DMike]

... I understand the point you're trying to make, but you're either ignoring some important context or being disingenuous.

I am not an engineer, I am a software developer. We also have requirements and objectives for a given piece of work. But we also have another piece of input: constraints.

Time. Budget. Personnel. etc.

In the matter being discussed those aren't really relevant - perhaps cost/budget is slightly at the extreme end - but there are still constraints.

If you build just based on requirements/objectives, and ignore constraints, and you were taking this thread alone as defining "requirements" (just using the "I want/need ..." statements, rather than the "x is not required/needed" statements) you'd end up with a "laptop" that has 8 or more TB3/USB-C ports, HDMI, a handful of USB Type-A, dual 10Gbit Ethernet, Firewire 800 and 400, at least 4 different card reader slots, a ****ing SCSI port, oh a floppy disk drive, a CD drive, a 56K modem, oh a Serial port, what else, oh at least one Mini DisplayPort, 2 MagSafe - both the old high current one, and the new inductive type... oh did someone mention an ADB port? what else?

So sure, you can start with objectives but those objects have to be able to fit with the given constraints.



I don't work for NASA. But I'm pretty sure NASA understands the concept of 'constraints' pretty well.

“Constraints” are just other requirements. Software gets requirements too. In case you ever work on a large project you can download NASA’s manual and there are ISO/IEEE guides if you ever wanted to be ISO certified for quality. Sure, you can start out with a ridiculously long list before eliminating things as you design. It’ll just take more time. But you don’t start designing and then figure out what you want to make. In this case, you don’t figure out what ports you can fit in after you have designed the case and board. You make a list of what you want/require, allocate engineering estimates (space, weight, power, cost), and then iterate diving further down revising as detailed analysis is available.

And no I am not being disingenuous, there are so many things we don’t know about the computer that authoritatively stating “if they add MagSafe I lose my ability to connect USB-C” is ludicrous hyperbole. It’s a brand new exterior with a brand new interior.

The switch to M chips has tons of variables and implications. Thermal and power needs on the M1 computers went down. In the old packaging Apple couldn’t optimize that change easily, but they can in a new case. But when going to the 16”, will it also be a full SoC? And how much space/weight can they save with the correct cooling? Is the fan and heat pipe smaller? What about graphics? Those are currently discrete. Can they fit enough RAM on the SoC? What’s the PCIe bus and how many TB controllers? How many ports to each controller? What about internal storage? Are they saving money by going to SoC or does it cost more? What about board complexity and cost? Which battery cells?

Going to the exterior: how thick will the screen be? What materials are they using which will affect weight and thickness (to include interior volume)? What manufacturing methods are they using and how does that effect cost? How will “squaring the sides” affect interior volume, stiffness and strength, usability, or cost?

I’m sure we could list dozens of other variables. None of us know definitive answers to these questions. We especially don’t know any answers about cost impacts of each decision. Anyone stating that they know the trades offs is pulling it out of their you know what.

If people were asking about quadrupling battery life or cutting thickness in half, we could speak to those trade offs because they are big enough scale. But a MagSafe or HDMI port is maybe 1-2% of the total volume and weight? Probably similar in parts cost. That’s too far in the weeds for people like us with so little information to make definitive statements given how much is changing.

Full-sized HDMI for example is going to be a stretch. The current 13 and 16 inch MBPs are 15 and 16mm thick, respectively. A HDMI Type-A receptacle has an inner dimension of 14mm.

I don’t even have to look that up, that HDMI measurement is clearly wrong. Are you looking at the width? The HDMI fit in the MacBooks which were 18mm at the thickest with rounded edges. If the HDMI were 14mm that would leave only 4mm for the screen, structure above and below the port, and the curvature. It’s not even a plausible number.

 

[DMike]

Your question implies that Apple can't add Magsafe, for example, without removing a USB-C port.

Exactly. MagSafe isn’t even a data port so they can’t even argue it takes away from the data bus.

 

[svanstrom]

Exactly. MagSafe isn’t even a data port so they can’t even argue it takes away from the data bus.

Well… technically I would say that that probably isn't true, at least not with a modern perspective.

Nowadays there's a lot of negation going on when it comes to what device can take/give how much power; and I doubt that a reimplemented MagSafe-port would be a dumb port. So to get it properly integrated with the computer/OS in general I'm guessing it would basically be something that internally would show up as a USB-device.

 

[DMike]

Well… technically I would say that that probably isn't true, at least not with a modern perspective.

Nowadays there's a lot of negation going on when it comes to what device can take/give how much power; and I doubt that a reimplemented MagSafe-port would be a dumb port. So to get it properly integrated with the computer/OS in general I'm guessing it would basically be something that internally would show up as a USB-device.

Probably true. I should have said high speed data.

 

[retta283]

Personally, after 4+ years of USB-C only it seems like major backtracking to add the old ports back again. Doesn't seem like something Apple would do. Not to say that these ports shouldn't be there, but they never should've been removed in the first place.

SD card is a simple one. It's thinner than a USB-C port so adding it back is not a major issue. There may be new and upcoming formats that will replace SD in the long term but we aren't there now. HDMI would be nice for niche uses but I feel that honestly DisplayPort via USB-C takes care of this enough already. Only problem I have with displays over USB-C is the sometimes catastrophic issues of USB-C power zapping the ports as I've seen a few times.

Ethernet is not happening. It hasn't been on a MBP in 9 years, and the applications for it dwindle on a laptop. Again, it may be useful in some niche situations, but majority of people have moved on. It would also require making the laptop thicker than the 2012-15 Retina series of laptops which I see as unlikely. MagSafe I haven't made my mind up on but it would be odd to me for the device to have 2 ways to charge, seems like a redundant port. Just include a magsafe tip that plugs into USB-C for those that want it. Unless they can expand it for other uses somehow.

USB-A is the most contentious one just due to the amount of devices already created for it. The move to USB-C is underway by now, but there is definitely still a market for it. Again, I would be very surprised if Apple backtracked in this regard. It would be useful for consumers but it just seems too late to revert this all of a sudden.

Maybe I will be wrong and Apple will reverse course and reintroduce all of these (Ethernet still seems impossible), but given Apple's past it would be quite contradictory. Time will tell...

 

[Stephen.R]

Your question implies that Apple can't add Magsafe, for example, without removing a USB-C port.

No, it does not. It implies they might not add it somehow affecting USB-C charging, not that they can not.

Think of it like this:

Billy might not walk to the shops, because he's tired.

vs

Jimmy can not walk to the shops, because the bridge is out.

I'm not concerned about whether it's technically possible to add ports Z, Y or Z without a negative impact. I'm concerned about whether the actual implementation has a negative impact.


I would have thought this was clear, given that I said I was curious about the views of people who want other ports. I didn't say "X is impossible without Y, do you still want X?" I said "If X would also mean Y, do you still want X".

I'd suggest that Apple have made far more controversial decisions in the last 20 years because they chose an approach, rather than because some feature they wanted required it.

Well the 13" Intel MBP has four sandwiches, while the 13" M1 MBP only has two sandwiches so it is reasonable to assume that there is room on the 13" M1 table for four sandwiches. And there is definitely room on the 16" table for six sandwiches.

Thank you for highlighting this, because it helps with my overall point.

The 13" Intel MBP line is physically big enough to house at least four TB3 ports. We know that because it exists.

But Apple also sold a two-port version, which was recently replaced by the M1 equipped model.

So as we can see, not every "what ports does this laptop have" scenario is solved by simply "how big is it, how many will fit?".

there are so many things we don’t know about the computer that authoritatively stating “if they add MagSafe I lose my ability to connect USB-C” is ludicrous hyperbole.

Stating it authoritatively is ridiculous. Can you show me someone who has stated that with authority? I can show you several people asking if it will affect it, and I asked if people would still want the feature if it would affected existing attributes/qualities.

I’m sure we could list dozens of other variables. None of us know definitive answers to these questions. We especially don’t know any answers about cost impacts of each decision. Anyone stating that they know the trades offs is pulling it out of their you know what.

Again. I've seen literally no one making definitive statements (except for one person in particular saying "of course Apple won't remove TB3 ports").

You keep talking about requirements, while also somehow ignoring that this is Apple, and if you think weight, and size are not constraints or "another kind of requirement" then you're being very naive.

Again, just to clarify, because it seems no body actually reads what the **** I'm writing the first time: I am not saying it's impossible to add the ports discussed, or others, to a new MBP design. I am saying that Apple probably has other requirements besides <ports X Y and X> that would rule out port X or technology Y. That's all.

that HDMI measurement is clearly wrong

You are correct, I misread the text I referenced, and the size didn't click as being too big as I was writing it.

 

[darngooddesign]

Size isn't an absolute constraint with Apple anymore since their 16" MBP increased in size and weight without adding additional ports and they are supposed to go from 13" to 14" on the smaller MBP.

 

[wave84]

Discussing about size and thickness is pointless, the new laptops only have USB-C purely for design reasons - conceptual and esthetic. It is Apple's (or Jony Ive's) obsession with purity, form and symmetry. I'm certain that "making room inside for other stuff" or making it thinner had almost nothing to do with it. You can do anything from an engineering standpoint, there are laptops out there that are lighter or slimmer and have all these ports.

 

[Stephen.R]

Size isn't an absolute constraint with Apple anymore since their 16" MBP increased in size and weight without adding additional ports and they are supposed to go from 13" to 14" on the smaller MBP.

Again, nobody said anything is an absolute constraint. What posts are you people reading?

The thickness point could be argued either way honestly. It just increased, so they're less likely to want to increase again, but the increase was only 1mm, so maybe they'd be willing to let it go.

The weight I find hard to believe they'd increase again - the 15" to 16" increase was 180 grams - that's the weight of an iPhone 12 Pro.

 

[darngooddesign]

I was referring to length, width, and weight instead of thickness. The rumors are stating that the new design will get rid of or minimize the top and bottom curves to look more like an iPad Pro the flat sides could increase in height even if the over-all thickness decreases.

As a humorous point of contrast, I recently picked up my old 2008, pre-retina unibody 15" MBP. Holy cow that thing is thick and heavy compared to the current ones.

 

[svanstrom]

As a humorous point of contrast, I recently picked up my old 2008, pre-retina unibody 15" MBP. Holy cow that thing is thick and heavy compared to the current ones.

Looking at the specs the difference isn't that much.

Which is an argument against the "anything can be added"-side; that we are so sensitive to any added weight.

 

[darngooddesign]

Looking at the specs the difference isn't that much.

Which is an argument against the "anything can be added"-side; that we are so sensitive to any added weight.

More ports mean less metal in the case so it would be lighter.

My 2008 is 5.5#s, while the 2019 15" is 4.02#s, and the 2020 16" is 4.2#s. I would say the newest ones being either 1.2 or 1.5 pounds lighter is a pretty noticeably difference in weight.

 

[Maconplasma]

"So what I really want to know, is how many that are clamouring for legacy ports, would still want them if they come at the expense of current functionality."

Your question implies that Apple can't add Magsafe, for example, without removing a USB-C port.

That's not at all what his post implies. There could be a number of functions that could be taken away in lieu of adding ports. A reduction in speaker quality just to name a few since that's the area where Apple places the speakers and the grills.

 

[DMike]

Stating it authoritatively is ridiculous. Can you show me someone who has stated that with authority? I can show you several people asking if it will affect it, and I asked if people would still want the feature if it would affected existing attributes/qualities.


Again. I've seen literally no one making definitive statements (except for one person in particular saying "of course Apple won't remove TB3 ports").

How about this? Took 10 seconds to find.

But this topic is about trading either existing ports or existing features (space inside the chassis) for outdated and single use ports.

You keep talking about requirements, while also somehow ignoring that this is Apple, and if you think weight, and size are not constraints or "another kind of requirement" then you're being very naive.

Huh? I mentioned size and weight a bunch of times.

 

[revs]

If they fit, all of them, and more ?

 

[Stephen.R]

How about this? Took 10 seconds to find.

Ok, that's one post, stating that adding ports will either mean removing existing ports, or less space internally, while assuming the overall size will remain the same..

I mean given that both the 13" M1 MBP and MBA lines are exactly the same size and weight as the Intel equivalents they replaced, it's not a stretch to suggest the 16" MBP will remain the same size and weight too.

I'm still waiting for you to reference someone who claimed:

“if they add MagSafe I lose my ability to connect USB-C”

 

[smoking monkey]

That's not at all what his post implies. There could be a number of functions that could be taken away in lieu of adding ports. A reduction in speaker quality just to name a few since that's the area where Apple places the speakers and the grills.

The poster did say for example.
But you make a good point. Perhaps the new ports do mean a reduction in speaker quality!
I guess we won't know until we get our hands on these beasts in July! Let's hope it's no later than that!

 

[Applefan2015]

The ports that should make a return are the ones that apple‘s top dogs are missing, because at the end of the day us #applesheep will buy anything with an apple logo on ??? ???

 

[HowardEv]

A HDMI port and cable will always work and produce the expected result.

True but the expected result is that you won’t be able to move your laptop because the thick hdmi cable stresses the connector, it’ll get hot and the fans will be loud, and someone will trip over the cable and break monitor.

Imagine, if the cpu was on the desk, and the laptop wirelessly connected to it. The days of wires hanging off laptops are almost over.

 

[svanstrom]

True but the expected result is that you won’t be able to move your laptop because the thick hdmi cable stresses the connector, it’ll get hot and the fans will be loud, and someone will trip over the cable and break monitor.

Imagine, if the cpu was on the desk, and the laptop wirelessly connected to it. The days of wires hanging off laptops are almost over.

Let's get through the days of USB-A being "almost over", and then we'll get to wires in general being "almost over".

 

[HowardEv]

We will still use cables to connect monitors and stuff to the cpu on the desk. My hope is to wirelessly control it from a thin laptop.

 

[alien3dx]

The ports that should make a return are the ones that apple‘s top dogs are missing, because at the end of the day us #applesheep will buy anything with an apple logo on ??? ???

make me sad .. because no choice need to buy it.
** not apple sheep

 

[senttoschool]

Discussing about size and thickness is pointless, the new laptops only have USB-C purely for design reasons - conceptual and esthetic. It is Apple's (or Jony Ive's) obsession with purity, form and symmetry. I'm certain that "making room inside for other stuff" or making it thinner had almost nothing to do with it. You can do anything from an engineering standpoint, there are laptops out there that are lighter or slimmer and have all these ports.

This is 100% spot on.

The 2016 Macbook Pro is exactly how a very wealthy designer would design it. Form over function. Minimal. Purity. Anyone who has ever worked with a tech product designer (not product manager, not engineer) knows that if you leave a designer like that unchecked, they will always choose form over function. Jobs was the check for Ive. Cook doesn't care about design enough to override Ive. With Ive gone, Apple is finally returning to making Macs better, not adding compromises. The 2016 generation was taking one step forward and two steps back. Thankfully, Silicon Valley/San Francisco is moving away from these types of designers and are incorporating user experience designers into product design.

The 2016 Macbook Pro was not designed by MBAs. If it were, they would have added ports because they would have had research showing that many people would skip the generation without common ports. I mean, we have enough data in this small poll showing that most people would rather have old ports back than to keep USB-C only and people here are much more open to forward-thinking than your typical user.

Apple removed the ports about 6-7 years too early.

Every time Apple brings back something or hints at bringing back something from the 2015 Macbook Pro, people cheer, reviewers get excited, and people buy more Macs. Esc key. Scissor keyboard. Thicker with more battery. No touch bar. More ports. Maybe even a lower starting price.

This is a graph of Mac marketshare. The 2016 design decisions clearly failed. People voted with their wallets and Apple is backtracking nearly everything they did with the 2016 generation.