What ports should make a return to the 2021 Macbook Pro?

[Stephen.R]

Vendors include features potential customers want in order to convince them to buy their product

nice job trying to distract from the hypocrisy of your post that I quoted vs your claims.

“people have different needs... so this company should the inflexible option that I personally want”.

If a poll on MacRumors is your idea of what the “free market” wants I have some bad news for you. It rhymes with insigmificant.

 

[Apple Knowledge Navigator]

Did you even look at the photo? Do you see how thick the USB-A and HDMI are? Thickness of 2015 Macbooks is the absolute minimum to fit these legacy ports.

You’re judging the thickness by the flat-edge and disregarding the rest of the chassis, which curves down and makes up roughly 40% of the overall depth.

The upcoming MacBook Pro is rumoured to have an all flat design, which implies that the curvature will cease to be. This would provide more than enough room for a variety of I/O.

 

[537635]

You’re judging the thickness by the flat-edge and disregarding the rest of the chassis, which curves down and makes up roughly 40% of the overall depth.

The upcoming MacBook Pro is rumoured to have an all flat design, which implies that the curvature will cease to be. This would provide more than enough room for a variety of I/O.

This curvature is there so laptop doesn't looks absurdly thick. If they do introduce the all flat design, trust me, it's not gonna be as thick as current models.

Also:

 

[DMike]

nice job trying to distract from the hypocrisy of your post that I quoted vs your claims.

“people have different needs... so this company should the inflexible option that I personally want”.

If a poll on MacRumors is your idea of what the “free market” wants I have some bad news for you. It rhymes with insigmificant.

What hypocrisy? I have always acknowledged your needs are as valid as mine or anyone else's. Read my posts again. Then, please look up the definition of hypocrisy. In that specific post, I was responding to someone stating that battery life and weight are greater needs than HDMI as if it were a universal fact instead of one unique to them.

Is it the whole market? No, that's why I was specific in what I was referencing. It is the topic of this thread. Do you have another source of market research we could look at to determine what the potential consumer base wants? If so, I am sure it would be a valuable contribution to the discussion.

 

[JeepGuy]

Here, I fixed it for you:

Maybe the best solution (but unfortunately least likely) would be if Apple introduced a fourth product... a 16 inch MacBook SE. Those like yourself who prioritize outdated ports and proprietary charging get what you want and those of us who are willing to accept the future get what we want.

or better yet A true workstation class laptop, thick and with lots of ports, and more upgradable (ram/ssd)

 

[JeepGuy]

This curvature is there so laptop doesn't looks absurdly thick. If they do introduce the all flat design, trust me, it's not gonna be as thick as current models.

Also:

View attachment 1718253

I was amazed how much smaller my M1 Pro was compared to my 2015.

 

[LFC2020]

I'm a simple man, just give me MagSafe, Face ID, Micro led screen and pro motion. ?

 

[HowardEv]

Again, if you don't need these ports, it will make no impact to you if they are there, which really baffles me about the arguments people are making for them to not make a return.

Ports are holes to let water in and look ugly, and are fragile connectors to heavy hdmi cables and who wants multiple wires connecting to their laptop? Wireless is optimal, portless is optimal, with a MagSafe hole-less connector to recharge occasionally. You’d only need to recharge the laptop occasionally because it’d only be powering the screen and a wireless connection to the cpu that’d have its own battery and hdmi ports and USB ports that stays on the desk.

 

[HowardEv]

As far as the shape of the case goes, I hope they smooth the knife-like edges and make it easier to pick up and to open lid with one hand.

 

[Abazigal]

Having more ports can only be a good thing. Use the ports you need, and ignore the ones you don't, I don't see what the big deal is.

It’s called opportunity cost.

Every port that I don’t need in a device is taking up the space of a port or feature that I might have wanted.

How do I know that the HDMI port isn’t taking up space that could have gone to more battery? That MagSafe port could just as easily have been another usb c port. What if I want those ports on the other side of the laptop?

Every design choice is by definition a compromise, and yes, that extends to adding more features and functionality as well.

There will never be a right selection of ports that will make everyone happy. Which is why I still stand by Apple’s decision to go all-in on USB-C, and let the consumers get that specific mix of ports that they do want or need via the right selection of dongles and adaptors.

You want to charge your laptop from the left or right? The choice is all yours, but only when we embrace usb C and move away from dedicated ports on a laptop.

 

[DMike]

It’s called opportunity cost.

Every port that I don’t need in a device is taking up the space of a port or feature that I might have wanted.

How do I know that the HDMI port isn’t taking up space that could have gone to more battery? That MagSafe port could just as easily have been another usb c port. What if I want those ports on the other side of the laptop?

Every design choice is by definition a compromise, and yes, that extends to adding more features and functionality as well.

There will never be a right selection of ports that will make everyone happy. Which is why I still stand by Apple’s decision to go all-in on USB-C, and let the consumers get that specific mix of ports that they do want or need via the right selection of dongles and adaptors.

You want to charge your laptop from the left or right? The choice is all yours, but only when we embrace usb C and move away from dedicated ports on a laptop.

Your opportunity cost is subject to diminishing returns. Continuing to increase battery life, decrease size/weight, and adding USB-C ports yields less and less utility. Ex: Adding a fifth USB-C port is less useful than adding the second.

Of course there are design trade offs. But look at recent history: The MacBook was canceled. Apple decided to make the 16 inch MacBook Pro thicker than the preceding model rather than give up the performance gain. The Mac Pro got bigger from the trash can design and ditched “everything via ThunderBolt” in favor of old fashioned card slots. Something that was supposed to be obsolete after Apple introduced the trash can. They seem to be reconsidering their previous philosophy of always smaller, lighter, and fewer interfaces.

 

[Lazyass0]

If Magsafe then it should be like this (integrated) because there us plenty of setups now where one cable is connected for everything !

Magnetic TB3 40gbps

 

[537635]

This kind of setup simply isn't possible with MagSafe. GaN charger, 10 inch cable. USB-C gives you flexibility with ports and their locations, cables and chargers. I usually carry a 10 inch USB-C cable (for charging other devices like wireless microphone or external battery) and a standard 2m (6ft) cable for laptop, but they are interchangeable.

 

[DMike]

This kind of setup simply isn't possible with MagSafe. GaN charger, 10 inch cable. USB-C gives you flexibility with ports and their locations, cables and chargers. I usually carry a 10 inch USB-C cable (for charging other devices like wireless microphone or external battery) and a standard 2m (6ft) cable for laptop, but they are interchangeable.

View attachment 1719023

What's your point? There wasn't a poll option and I haven't seen anyone advocating for eliminating all USB-C ports. Add a MagSafe and this will still work. Same with USB-A, SD, HDMI. Heck.... even if people asked for Apple Desktop Buss this would still work. I use USB-C to charge and don't desire an old school MagSafe on the new model. But if it's there I just won't use it and I won't begrudge other people finding it useful. Given the MagSafe brand has been changed for the iPhone, I think predicting what the rumor means is pretty hard anyway.

Before you try to go off on "design trade offs" or standing in the way of "technology progress", I'm an engineer. Design trade offs is what I do everyday. Designing new technology is what I do for a living. I understand the concepts very well and better than most people on this board who are just technology enthusiasts. Just because something is the "most advanced" doesn't make it a good design and the "best" technologies frequently lose.

Apple has made bad designs over the years that were still lauded at the time. It happens particularly when they have put minimalist form over function. Recently: the Butterfly keyboard and the trash can Mac Pro. Further back: the third generation Shuffle had the shortest lifespan and the fourth went back to an updated second generation form factor. The G4 Cube was a flop despite being a direct request from Jobs to Ive. True, the market followed them in dropping floppies and parallel ports. But it has not followed dropping USB-A or HDMI (Ethernet to a lesser extent) in the last five years. Similarly, Firewire was never the market dominator over USB it was supposed to be and ADC had a very short run. That every model of Mac has a 3.5mm port proves it isn't as archaic as predicted and the fact Apple never put a Lightning connector in a Mac is telling. Not everything Apple does is a win and they do change course when it doesn't make money.

 

[deeddawg]

the fact Apple never put a Lightning connector in a Mac is telling.

Commenting on just this one part -- What is "telling" about Apple not putting their "client-device" port into a host device?

It seems that Apple's been pretty consistent in using Lightning on client/peripheral devices, and USB on host devices. We've seen the ipad pro's move to USBC as they sorta graduated into host devices rather than peripheral devices.

Lightning on a Mac would go against that host/client paradigm, so I'd not ever expect to see that occur.

 

[537635]

Commenting on just this one part -- What is "telling" about Apple not putting their "client-device" port into a host device?

It seems that Apple's been pretty consistent in using Lightning on client/peripheral devices, and USB on host devices. We've seen the ipad pro's move to USBC as they sorta graduated into host devices rather than peripheral devices.

Lightning on a Mac would go against that host/client paradigm, so I'd not ever expect to see that occur.

For an engineer this one should have been pretty obvious. Lightning is meant for low power, low data, large number of cycles. USB-C is meant for high power, high data, medium to low number of cycles.

It makes ZERO sense to add lightning receptacle on a laptop.

 

[DMike]

Commenting on just this one part -- What is "telling" about Apple not putting their "client-device" port into a host device?

It seems that Apple's been pretty consistent in using Lightning on client/peripheral devices, and USB on host devices. We've seen the ipad pro's move to USBC as they sorta graduated into host devices rather than peripheral devices.

Lightning on a Mac would go against that host/client paradigm, so I'd not ever expect to see that occur.

They shifted their audio to Lightning on mobile (even including Lightning only earbuds), but never put a jack on a Mac. If you are using a Mac and an iPhone with wired headphones you need two sets of headphones. Or spend money on their dongle for one (those 3.5mm dongles were at one point the best selling Apple product at Best Buy). The Airpods weren't released until three months after the elimination of the 3.5mm. Elimination of the jack was never about providing a "better" headphone connection, but in pushing other products.

Also remember, Lightning preceded USB-C by two years. The dual sided nature of the cable would have been an improvement over the USB-A available at the time, but never made its way onto the computers.

 

[darngooddesign]

That every model of Mac has a 3.5mm port proves it isn't as archaic as predicted and the fact Apple never put a Lightning connector in a Mac is telling. Not everything Apple does is a win and they do change course when it doesn't make money.

Its not really telling of anything. Apple also never put a 30-pin port on their laptops back when they were happy to have a myriad of dedicated ports.

 

[537635]

They shifted their audio to Lightning on mobile (even including Lightning only earbuds), but never put a jack on a Mac. If you are using a Mac and an iPhone with wired headphones you need two sets of headphones. Or spend money on their dongle for one (those 3.5mm dongles were at one point the best selling Apple product at Best Buy). The Airpods weren't released until three months after the elimination of the 3.5mm. Elimination of the jack was never about providing a "better" headphone connection, but in pushing other products.

Also remember, Lightning preceded USB-C by two years. The dual sided nature of the cable would have been an improvement over the USB-A available at the time, but never made its way onto the computers.

In the same manner Apple is pushing for wireless peripherals. Headphone adapters were never meant for mainstream, but merely for people with quality audio gear in place.

And for those who prefer lightning headphones, you can now also get a reversed adapter.


Again, you claim to be an engineer. Please google specs for Lightning and USB-C. Lightning is clearly more advanced for peripherals because of design (no breakable parts in the receptacle), solid male connector, but also for these reasons lacking power and data specs of USB-C (which has now proven to be quite durable, much more than microUSB and is my opinion also ready for prime time on iPhones, as it is on iPads and Macbooks).

 

[deeddawg]

They shifted their audio to Lightning on mobile (even including Lightning only earbuds), but never put a jack on a Mac. If you are using a Mac and an iPhone with wired headphones you need two sets of headphones. Or spend money on their dongle for one (those 3.5mm dongles were at one point the best selling Apple product at Best Buy). The Airpods weren't released until three months after the elimination of the 3.5mm. Elimination of the jack was never about providing a "better" headphone connection, but in pushing other products.

I always figured ditching the 3.5mm port on the phones was about IPxx ratings and water resistance.

If they were touting something about audio quality I missed it. But since I can't remember the last time I used a wired headphone connection on laptop or phone, it's no surprise that I paid it no attention. *shrug*

Still doesn't change that Apple's pretty clearly maintained the client/host paradigm I mentioned and putting Lighting into a mac would go against that.

Also remember, Lightning preceded USB-C by two years. The dual sided nature of the cable would have been an improvement over the USB-A available at the time, but never made its way onto the computers.

Perhaps. Given how many still today complain about interfacing their legacy cables and devices to the MBP/MBA USBC ports, switching from USB Type A ports on computers to Lightning back in 2012 would've been sheer folly.

Looking back, it seemed Lightning was aimed at avoiding the "sidedness" inconvenience of micro-B and mini-B connectors. As you remember, the Type A connector was/is largely a host-side connector, with the Type B connector (in different flavors) used on the client-device end.

 

[aevan]

I don't want USB-A, even if there is room for it.

HDMI I would like, but not a big deal.

MagSafe would be cool (I guess they would make it really nice, with a satisfying click) - but I prefer USB-C for charging (charging from all sides, not needing separate cables, etc.)


Personally, I would just leave the USB-C ports if it were up to me.

 

[DMike]

In the same manner Apple is pushing for wireless peripherals. Headphone adapters were never meant for mainstream, but merely for people with quality audio gear in place.

And for those who prefer lightning headphones, you can now also get a reversed adapter.


Again, you claim to be an engineer. Please google specs for Lightning and USB-C. Lightning is clearly more advanced for peripherals because of design (no breakable parts in the receptacle), solid male connector, but also for these reasons lacking power and data specs of USB-C (which has now proven to be quite durable, much more than microUSB and is my opinion also ready for prime time on iPhones, as it is on iPads and Macbooks).

I know the spec differences. Note that the sentence was talking about 3.5mm and Lightning. Not Lightning instead of USB-C.

When Apple eliminated the 3.5mm jack from the phone, the fanboys talked about how archaic and out of date the 3.5mm is. How glad they were to be rid of it. Schiller from Apple said, "Maintaining an ancient, single-purpose, analogue, big connector doesn't make sense because that space is at a premium." Since it is a digital output, the Lightning can be better than the crappy A2D/D2As that every computer manufacturer uses for their 3.5mm. As an audio connection it is objectively better or at least higher tech.

Yet the 3.5mm is still there on every single Mac and there has never been a Lightning port despite the fact that Apple critiqued it so much and primed the market with Lightning audio products (dongles, first and third party headphones). Apple chose just two ports for the MacBook: one USB-C and one 3.5mm. They could have swapped the 3.5mm with a Lightning and given the computer the better audio and more data connections, but didn't. Which is the point. Apple has a ready to go better solution for audio that they developed and have sold, but they continue to use the older format on 100% of Macs. The fact that Lightning could also be used as a data port for low speed USB is just icing on the cake of it being a technically more advanced solution. I would think that someone like yourself who is obsessed with generic ports over any dedicated ports would be all over replacing the 3.5mm jack.

But hey, obsess over and try to twist one example to your narrative. Because you have no actual argument against anything else.

 

[DMike]

I always figured ditching the 3.5mm port on the phones was about IPxx ratings and water resistance.

If they were touting something about audio quality I missed it. But since I can't remember the last time I used a wired headphone connection on laptop or phone, it's no surprise that I paid it no attention. *shrug*

Still doesn't change that Apple's pretty clearly maintained the client/host paradigm I mentioned and putting Lighting into a mac would go against that.



Perhaps. Given how many still today complain about interfacing their legacy cables and devices to the MBP/MBA USBC ports, switching from USB Type A ports on computers to Lightning back in 2012 would've been sheer folly.

Looking back, it seemed Lightning was aimed at avoiding the "sidedness" inconvenience of micro-B and mini-B connectors. As you remember, the Type A connector was/is largely a host-side connector, with the Type B connector (in different flavors) used on the client-device end.

It was not about IP rating as other phones with the same rating had 3.5mm jacks at the time. Audio quality is definitely (potentially) better as it is a digital output on Lightning vs 3.5mm. The D2A in the iPhone isn't that good because it has to be so small. You can find plenty of USB D2A used by audiophiles, but realistically it wouldn't take much to be better. The D2A in the dongle or Lightning headphones were likely not any better.

Unfortunately I do frequently with my laptop. I have had multiple employers lock out Bluetooth on work machines for security purposes, but I still have to take online video training. I typically leave an old wired pair in my desk.

Except for Lightning and the 30pin, I don't remember any Apple connections to be client/host off the top of my head. I guess the 3.5mm connection into the Shuffles, but that's a very odd case. Firewire was the same connector on both ends. I think ADC was too? It's been awhile since I saw one. MiniDisplayPort can be the same on both ends. Most of the other Apple developed ones I remember were ADB or AppleTalk. Still, I wouldn't call host/client a universal thing.

Maybe if it were a 100% swap of ports as Apple did when going to USB-C. That would not have been a necessity. Example: the current Mac Pro has both USB-A and USB-C connections. There would have been things to gain by letting Macs and iPhone/iPads share accessories, however. And again, they all have room for a 3.5mm jack which is bigger. The "sidedness" is also an issue on the USB-A connectors.

Edit: I forgot a counter case to the client/host in Lighting: the first generation Apple Pencil plugged into the iPad Lightning port which serves as the host.

 

[DMike]

Its not really telling of anything. Apple also never put a 30-pin port on their laptops back when they were happy to have a myriad of dedicated ports.

Did Apple ever make or sell any 30pin headphones? Is 30pin smaller than a 3.5mm port? Apple has utilized Lightning as an audio port which they don't include on their current computers. Can you tell me why they continue to sell products with the 3.5mm? If you can't explain the 3.5mm technical superiority you have proven my point. Because my point is that "superior" technologies don't automatically replace all instances of "inferior" ones.

 

[darngooddesign]

The 3

Did Apple ever make or sell any 30pin headphones? Is 30pin smaller than a 3.5mm port? Apple has utilized Lightning as an audio port which they don't include on their current computers. Can you tell me why they continue to sell products with the 3.5mm? If you can't explain the 3.5mm technical superiority you have proven my point. Because my point is that "superior" technologies don't automatically replace all instances of "inferior" ones.

30-pin was used as an audio out port for speakers and such, just like Lightning on iPhones and iPads.