Other Where is the small petite sized phone?

[JPack]

Well, there's a huge market for 128GB capacity iPhones but Apple doesn't make them and I wonder why that is.

Anyway, the SE sold really well for Apple and still does. It's not that there isn't a market, it's that Apple wants you to spend more $. That's the gist of it all. It isn't that there isn't a market, it's that Apple doesn't want to waste their time on a phone that will sell for what..$399? $499? They can eliminate that price range and it will "force" probably 75% of those people into buying the Xr or Xs. Some people will wind a different make for that size and Apple deems that acceptable loss compared to the profit margin from the "forced" sales.

If there was a market for 4-inch phones, Android competitors would be all over it.

There's a market for 4-inch phones just like there's a market for 15-inch monitors and flip phones. With 7 billion people on the planet, of course there's a market. But it's not a market worth playing in for any major player.

 

[DNichter]

Well, there's a huge market for 128GB capacity iPhones but Apple doesn't make them and I wonder why that is.

Anyway, the SE sold really well for Apple and still does. It's not that there isn't a market, it's that Apple wants you to spend more $. That's the gist of it all. It isn't that there isn't a market, it's that Apple doesn't want to waste their time on a phone that will sell for what..$399? $499? They can eliminate that price range and it will "force" probably 75% of those people into buying the Xr or Xs. Some people will wind a different make for that size and Apple deems that acceptable loss compared to the profit margin from the "forced" sales.

Yup, correct on both statements. Apple is a business here to make money. If they can make money with a different strategy, then they will.

 

[tkermit]

If there was a market for 4-inch phones, Android competitors would be all over it.

For the longest time, they were unable to make a flagship small phone. The same may be true for Apple these days.

 

[JPack]

For the longest time, they were unable to make a flagship small phone. The same may be true for Apple these days.

I'm not sure where that myth comes from.

 

[0970373]

Yup, correct on both statements. Apple is a business here to make money. If they can make money with a different strategy, then they will.

I actually do think they will make a follow up to the SE but only after production for the new X lines demand starts to slow. They released the SE off-cycle so I think maybe spring next year? I still love my SE. And sure I got a Xs and LOVE the Dual SIM (I have been waiting for this feature for so long), I would probably still pick up the SE update even though I won't need 2 phones anymore.

Speaking of Dual SIM - I think this is another feature that "didn't have a market" according to many but look - here it is.

 

[dcpmark]

I think the problem is that there were 3 types of people who bought the SE:

1) people that want the cheapest phone Apple makes, and would actually prefer a larger size if available at a cheap price;
2) people that like the size but ALSO don’t want to pay that much for a phone;
3) people who like the size, and are willing to pay whatever it takes to have newer phones in this size (like me).

I have no idea how many users are in each group, but I can speculate that the number of users falls in the above order as well. With a cheap 7, this effectively knocks off everyone in #1 and some portion of group 2. That leaves a much smaller subset of previous SE owners who would buy an updated SE, and not worth Apple’s attention.

Where I think Apple might be leaving money on the table is to make a PREMIUM small phone for those of us that can afford anything they put out. I know this is likely the smallest group of SE supoorters, but they can charge an arm and a leg for it, with a HUGE profit margin, and many of us will pay it.

 

[DNichter]

I actually do think they will make a follow up to the SE but only after production for the new X lines demad starts to slow. They released the SE off-cycle so I think maybe spring next year? I still love my SE. And sure I got a Xs and LOVE the Dual SIM (I have been waiting for this feature for so long), I would probably still pick up the SE update even though I won't need 2 phones anymore.

They might. I certainly don't mind either way whether they do or don't, but I just don't think it's any sort of priority for Apple. When I say no market, I just don't think it's a viable business for Apple. I think you could see a X like design the size of an iPhone 7 with iPhone 7 internal parts for around $499. I don't see a 4 inch screen happening though.

 

[wallysb01]

I think the problem is that there were 3 types of people who bought the SE:

1) people that want the cheapest phone Apple makes, and would actually prefer a larger size if available at a cheap price;
2) people that like the size but ALSO don’t want to pay that much for a phone;
3) people who like the size, and are willing to pay whatever it takes to have newer phones in this size (like me).

I have no idea how many users are in each group, but I can speculate that the number of users falls in the above order as well. With a cheap 7, this effectively knocks off everyone in #1 and some portion of group 2. That leaves a much smaller subset of previous SE owners who would buy an updated SE, and not worth Apple’s attention.

Where I think Apple might be leaving money on the table is to make a PREMIUM small phone for those of us that can afford anything they put out. I know this is likely the smallest group of SE supoorters, but they can charge an arm and a leg for it, with a HUGE profit margin, and many of us will pay it.

I'm kind of between 2 and 3. I'm not going to pay $1000 for a small phone, but $500-$700 for something truly nice would be doable. Anyway, I think the added benefit of a smaller premium phone would be in the trickle down strategy of selling the older phones as the 'budget' options (and I put that in single quotes because they aren't really cheap, just cheaper). Then you capture people in group 2 in a potentially higher price range and/or at higher rates than what is currently happening given that those users aren't all that happy with their options. For example, if at the moment Apple was selling an original X style and tech phone, but in a slightly smaller package (yes I realize that might mean some other compromises like no duel camera), I'd be much happier jumping to that phone at say $600-$700 than I would be going to the iPhone 8 at that price range. As a result of this, what am I looking at? The SE from a place like best buy or a refurb 7. I just can't bring my self to spend around $500 or more on a phone if its not really what I want anyway.

 

[JPack]

Notice the SE's growth vs the 7 and 7 plus. That's not some totally trivial number, making up maybe 10-20% of "new" phone sales at the time. And while the SE had more time to sell, the SE was also at a disadvantage because it was nearly the same guts as a 6s, which was released ~6 months earlier (a few smaller differences in camera and battery, of course). So, we don't really know how a fully competitive ~5", or smaller, phone would sell if released at the same time as the larger options.

That graph speaks volumes about the decline of the 4-inch iPhone.

• June 2016: 4-inch installed base of about 22 million (SE, 5s, 5c)
• December 2016: 4-inch installed base under 10 million users!

That was in the span of 6 months.

In other words, 4-inch iPhone users switched to larger devices. Or they moved out of iOS.

Apple doesn't need try some grand experiment about launching another 4-inch phone with updated specs. They already tried it in 2016 and was a pretty big failure in terms of resources spent.

 

[wallysb01]

They might. I certainly don't mind either way whether they do or don't, but I just don't think it's any sort of priority for Apple. When I say no market, I just don't think it's a viable business for Apple. I think you could see a X like design the size of an iPhone 7 with iPhone 7 internal parts for around $499. I don't see a 4 inch screen happening though.

And their is no need for a 4 inch screen now that we have edge-to-edge designs. Something about the size of the SE to maybe a bit bigger could be a 5-5.5" screen.

 

[DNichter]

That graph speaks volumes about the decline of the 4-inch iPhone.

• June 2016: 4-inch installed base of about 22 million (SE, 5s, 5c)
• December 2016: 4-inch installed base under 10 million users!

That was in the span of 6 months.

In other words, 4-inch iPhone users switched to larger devices. Or they moved out of iOS.

View attachment 781772

Apple doesn't need try some grand experiment about launching another 4-inch phone with updated specs. They already tried it in 2016 and was a pretty big failure in terms of resources spent.

I was just kind of trusting everyone when they said sales were great for the SE.

 

[0970373]

And their is no need for a 4 inch screen now that we have edge-to-edge designs. Something about the size of the SE to maybe a bit bigger could be a 5-5.5" screen.

Yes, exactly.

 

[wallysb01]

That graph speaks volumes about the decline of the 4-inch iPhone.

• June 2016: 4-inch installed base of about 22 million (SE, 5s, 5c)
• December 2016: 4-inch installed base under 10 million users!

That was in the span of 6 months.

In other words, 4-inch iPhone users switched to larger devices. Or they moved out of iOS.

View attachment 781772

Apple doesn't need try some grand experiment about launching another 4-inch phone with updated specs. They already tried it in 2016 and was a pretty big failure in terms of resources spent.

I don't find the numbers lost from iPhone 5s and below as particularly informative. At the time those phones were new, they were the only size option. But then once the SE came out we had options, but many sales were likely 'stolen' from it, or a phone of its size, with the forced move to 6/6s sizing. Then when it finally came out it was just a smaller 6s (actually slightly worse), while everyone of course knows a phone with better tech is coming in early fall. This was a disadvantageous positioning, magnifying the sales delta between the other models. Imagine if the SE comes out before the 6s, for example, or uses iPhone 7 internals once it does. Either option attracts more buyers to that phone than what happened. Anyway, what is most informative is the fraction of 'new' purchases. So look at the delta between the SE/7/7+ in the last 2-3 quarters on the chart (the iPhone 6s/6s+ seem fairly static in that range making our lives easy). Despite the SE being essentially a 6s on the inside, it gained a reasonable number of sales relative to the 7/7+, about 14% of all SE/7/7+ install base by the final number on that chart. With better market positioning, a phone that size would do even better.

 

[jackoatmon]

Less talking. More buying.

Let's see photos of SE hoarding please.

Here's (attached IMG) the 4 I've stacked up so far. Gonna get at least 6, hopefully 8-10. I'm dedicated to the project.

And their is no need for a 4 inch screen now that we have edge-to-edge designs. Something about the size of the SE to maybe a bit bigger could be a 5-5.5" screen.

Yes, exactly.

See, you guys are thinking about this from the phlablet perspective. I would say, with edge to edge designs, we can get that perfect-sized 4" screen on an even smaller body.

I would say that – if edge-to-edge designs weren't hideous and fragile and a complete mistake of industrial design.

 

[wallysb01]

I was just kind of trusting everyone when they said sales were great for the SE.

And I'd say they were pretty good given that it was a total in-betweener, old styling, no new tech features, awkward release date, that phone had some head winds relative to regular releases.

 

[JPack]

I don't find the numbers lost from iPhone 5s and below as particularly informative. At the time those phones were new, they were the only size option. But then once the SE came out we had options, but many sales were likely 'stolen' from it, or a phone of its size, with the forced move to 6/6s sizing. Then when it finally came out it was just a smaller 6s (actually slightly worse), while everyone of course knows a phone with better tech is coming in early fall. This was a disadvantageous positioning, magnifying the sales delta between the other models. Imagine if the SE comes out before the 6s, for example, or uses iPhone 7 internals once it does. Either option attracts more buyers to that phone than what happened. Anyway, what is most informative is the fraction of 'new' purchases. So look at the delta between the SE/7/7+ in the last 2-3 quarters on the chart (the iPhone 6s/6s+ seem fairly static in that range making our lives easy). Despite the SE being essentially a 6s on the inside, it gained a reasonable number of sales relative to the 7/7+, about 14% of all SE/7/7+ install base by the final number on that chart. With better market positioning, a phone that size would do even better.

Here's my takeaway from the graph.

- iPhone SE wasn't saving the 4-inch form factor. Even after the SE launch, the 5s users were jumping ship... and not to the SE boat. This is evident based on huge decline of 5s and small growth of SE users.

- iPhone SE was two generations newer than iPhone 5s. Processor (A7 to A9), camera (8MP to 12MP), Apple Pay, RAM (1GB to 2GB), battery, WiFi. Everything was upgraded. If 4-inch users wanted to upgrade to SE, they would have done so. Releasing an SE with even newer specs or at an earlier date would not have helped.

- Graph shows the 4.7" and 5.5" user base growing. The 4" user base dropped to less than half from June 2016 to December 2016.

 

[jackoatmon]

Yeah it's a total niche thing. Most people eat at MacDonald's and wear clothing from the Gap and have Ikea furniture and want gargantuan phlablets.

 

[wallysb01]

Here's my takeaway from the graph.

- iPhone SE wasn't saving the 4-inch form factor. Even after the SE launch, the 5s users were jumping ship... and not to the SE boat. This is evident based on huge decline of 5s and small growth of SE users.

Against what expectation though? How much of the iPhone market should it have given that it was essentially half a year late to the party for its internals and outdated another half a year into its life?

- iPhone SE was two generations newer than iPhone 5s. Processor (A7 to A9), camera (8MP to 12MP), Apple Pay, RAM (1GB to 2GB), battery, WiFi. Everything was upgraded. If 4-inch users wanted to upgrade to SE, they would have done so. Releasing an SE with even newer specs or at an earlier date would not have helped.

Sure and it did capture ~14% of the 'new model' sales through the end of 2016.

And what makes you think the bolded statement is true? It seems completely counter intuitive and illogical. If its released with the 6s, with the exact same specs, then many users in the market for a phone at the time that prefer the smaller size would have had an option. As it was, they were either forced wait, with no expectation an SE would ever show up at the time, or go to the bigger size. Similarly, a better spec'ed phone in March 2016, would have given buyers a more secure feeling regarding the up-to-date-ness of the phone. As it was, it was clearly a compromise. Its all a balance. Size is one of several things people consider when buying a phone. For posters here complaining, that's likely the most important thing, but for the masses its going to be a balancing act between size, other features, price, etc. But by not offering the same specs (or as similar as differently sized models usually are) at the same time, Apple tipped the scale against the SE, if you are going to judge it in the way that you are.

- Graph shows the 4.7" and 5.5" user base growing. The 4" user base dropped to less than half from June 2016 to December 2016.

And its allowed to grow. It just means less than you think it does when the alternatives aren't on equal footing.

 

[DNichter]

And I'd say they were pretty good given that it was a total in-betweener, old styling, no new tech features, awkward release date, that phone had some head winds relative to regular releases.

It's a fine number, but just not enough to make it viable.

 

[wallysb01]

See, you guys are thinking about this from the phlablet perspective. I would say, with edge to edge designs, we can get that perfect-sized 4" screen on an even smaller body.

I would say that – if edge-to-edge designs weren't hideous and fragile and a complete mistake of industrial design.

Right, I suppose I wouldn't want a literal edge to edge, but the bezels could be much reduced on the same foot print and get a 5" screen out of it. Honestly, I don't need a smaller phone either.... Something from the SE size to maybe half way to the 7/8 size would be perfect for me.

 

[jackoatmon]

i think the only reason they kept it running for so long is cuz it was steve jobs' last "thing"
[doublepost=1536958776][/doublepost]

Right, I suppose I wouldn't want a literal edge to edge, but the bezels could be much reduced on the same foot print and get a 5" screen out of it. Honestly, I don't need a smaller phone either.... Something from the SE size to maybe half way to the 7/8 size would be perfect for me.

this would be the Platonic Ideal for me

 

[now i see it]

Everyone who wanted an SE has an SE. It's good for a couple years. By then there will be a new small model.

 

[subjonas]

Everyone who wanted an SE has an SE. It's good for a couple years. By then there will be a new small model.

Man I hope so.
I’m prepared to hand over a lot of money right now to whoever can give me a quality one-handed phone upgrade to the SE, or to whoever can give me a decent one-handed phone replacement when my SE gives out. In the meantime I’m prepared to use my SE for the next 6 years or however long it will last.

 

[ftaok]

They might. I certainly don't mind either way whether they do or don't, but I just don't think it's any sort of priority for Apple. When I say no market, I just don't think it's a viable business for Apple. I think you could see a X like design the size of an iPhone 7 with iPhone 7 internal parts for around $499. I don't see a 4 inch screen happening though.

They're currently selling the 7 for $450. Getting FaceID and the edge/edge LCD screen in there for $50 won't happen. The yields for the FaceID parts must have gotten better as they're now in all of the new models, but I don't think the prices are that low yet, nor would I expect Apple to take that kind of margin hit to meet a price point.

Honestly, I don't think an Xr type phone at the size of the 7 is in the cards this year. At that price, it would definitely hurt sales of the Xs, even with the 2 generation old chips. Note that the Xs is about the same physical size as the 7.
[doublepost=1536972080][/doublepost]

That graph speaks volumes about the decline of the 4-inch iPhone.

• June 2016: 4-inch installed base of about 22 million (SE, 5s, 5c)
• December 2016: 4-inch installed base under 10 million users!

That was in the span of 6 months.

In other words, 4-inch iPhone users switched to larger devices. Or they moved out of iOS.

View attachment 781772

Apple doesn't need try some grand experiment about launching another 4-inch phone with updated specs. They already tried it in 2016 and was a pretty big failure in terms of resources spent.

I'm very skeptical about any of the analysis coming out of CIRP. It's totally survey based and only applies to US sales.

Also, one of their latest reports was highly suspect. They claimed their analysis indicates that the iPhone 8+ outsold both the 8 and X by a wide margin in the US. Not saying that it's true, but once again, in the latest conference call, Tim indicated that the X was the highest selling iPhone model for the quarter. It doesn't directly refute the CIRP report, but it definitely casts a big shadow of doubt.

 

[ls1dreams]

I'm a 5'9 man and I want a smaller phone. Even the X is too large for me to be comfortable.