Which "Budget" DSLR - Nikon D60 or Canon XS?

[Mr. G4]

The four-thirds system is a much younger system than all of the other systems used for DSLRs, and is therefore relatively immature. It's much less standard than systems employed by the other manufacturers. I did omit that it has in-body image stabilization, but in my opinion it's a moot point since Olympus advantages are negated by the disabilities that its competitors simply don't have.

I simply don't get your point. People buying camera that doesn't have in body camera end up paying more for lens when they want image stabilizer in their new lens. So camera with in body IS can put any lens, even legacy one, and still have IS, so to me it is a big plus.

It's true that any of the DSLRs from the major manufacturers will produce better image. But conventional wisdom and the thoughts of critics and photographers would argue that one is better served by a selection from Canon, Nikon, or Pentax instead of the options offered by Olympus, Sony, Sigma and the other manufacturers. There is more room to grow, a healthier accessory ecosystem, and a much larger lens selection.

So you pick OSX over Windows because it has more accessories and software running on it or because what you want to do with it, it can do better. I chose 4/3rd because it's small and light and because Olympus is an innovative company like Apple. Company that lead with innovation for other to copy such as the Dust buster with no equal from other company as we speak. The first company to come out with live view etc, ect...I didn't chose Olympus despite what the so call critics said. Does "Think Different" remind you of anything? All my Olympus photogear I bough them used, so it's not that difficult for other to so the same.

 

[Mr. G4]

Yes, but the important question there is can the 4/3rds ecosystem support *two* lens standards at this point in its evolution, or is one side going to get screwed? Personally, I think it can't, and since Oly is going all in on u4/3rds, standard 4/3rds users are likely to get screwed longer-term.

As I said there is a full range of lens to chose from, not only two...do some research and educate yourself.
I don't know where you get that information. Olympus CEO has said again and again they are not abandoning 4/3rd standard on the contrary, while Panasonic released two µ4/3rd, Olympus had released so far 3 4/3rd DSLR this year.

I hardly think most folks looking for lens bargains are searching for kit lenses- that means you're pretty-much relegated to purchasing new lenses
- negating the disadvantage of the low-end Nikon bodies since at that point it's an apples-to-apples issue. If you're going to purchase new lenses anyway, you may as well go with a system that has options for full-frame in the future and lower noise.

Then you're simply wrong. Everything other than the lowest-end bodies can AF with any AF lens, so if you start at the low end digital, you're *always* going to have forwards-compatible AF if you trade up to a prosumer or pro body. There are about six current AF-D lenses that don't have equivalent options for AF on the lowest-end bodies, and about half of those are fisyeyes, in fact, I'd bet there are more lenses that will AF on the D60 than there are 4/3rds lenses period.

Nikon has been very good about putting DX crop modes into its FF cameras as well. The D3x offers just over 10MP of DX crop mode, so if you're invested in DX (APS-C) lenses, then you basically get a D90 image from the full-frame body if you use a DX lens.

Like I said what is the point of buying full frame camera to shoot down in resolution.

Perhaps you should ask yourself the equivalent of about Nikon cameras?

Yes I did. I have used an D700, D300 and D60 from friends of mine. How about you?

 

[compuwar]

At the Olympus haters - LOL....

FWIW, I don't hate Olympus, I just think they made huge errors in going small early, and it's going to cost them- possibly everything. But in this case, I was simply responding to an Olympus fanboy's misstatements.

Yes, everyone's sensor is getting better and 4/3 will never catch up to the larger sensors, but why Olympus gets such a bad rap, I don't know. I've taken some awesome pics my Olympus cams.

That's the point though- if you can't catch up, you need another edge- and the difference between the smaller APS-C DSLRs and the full 4/3rds isn't really that significant. Samsung's going to have second-mover advantage, and more chance of getting into retail with more product when they release the EVF-based NX line, which will have an APS-C sized sensor. At that point, you've got a system that's not likely to win any IQ battles with a competitor at the same size- so what's the sales pitch to the consumer for 4/3rds at that point?

Oly's financial status is bad- and they were actually pulling out of the dive before the global meltdown, so it's a shame- but they're going to have an uphill battle, and there's little advantage to a takeover since Panasonic makes the same stuff. Just like Hoya's inability to sell Pentax's camera division after they acquired them Oly's going to have to try to make its camera division profitable on its own merits, and that's a long uphill battle (though probably not as far uphill as Hoya will have to go.)

The global DSLR market is still expanding- and if the analysts are right, we've got 2-3 years before it starts to contract- if a company can't make money in a growing market, how is it going to do in a contracting one?

I'll ask this- given all of the above, if someone wanted small and didn't want to wait to see how the NX faired, what would make them choose Oly when Panasonic looks like a less-risky choice in the 4/3rds camp?

 

[John.B]

Check out Ken Rockwell's site http://www.kenrockwell.com. Some people hate the guy, some love him.

If you'll start a new poll, I promise to vote for "hate the guy"...

To the OP, google "megapixel myth" and read up on it from a variety of sources vs. just one goofball.

 

[gkarris]

That's the point though- if you can't catch up, you need another edge- and the difference between the smaller APS-C DSLRs and the full 4/3rds isn't really that significant. Samsung's going to have second-mover advantage, and more chance of getting into retail with more product when they release the EVF-based NX line, which will have an APS-C sized sensor. At that point, you've got a system that's not likely to win any IQ battles with a competitor at the same size- so what's the sales pitch to the consumer for 4/3rds at that point?

...

Catch up with what? For what? What? Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah...

Why waste time with all this?

Just go out and take and enjoy pics! Nikon, Canon, Olympus, Polariod One-Step, Kodak Pocket 110...

 

[compuwar]

As I said there is a full range of lens to chose from, not only two...do some research and educate yourself.

You may consider it a full range, but again, AOV isn't equal to magnification, so it's not as "full" as you portray. I said two *standards*, please take the time to actually read what's said. Olympus has put itself into the unenviable position of having to tool for two different flange->image plane distances while Samsung will have only one and a larget sensor- that's not good news for Oly.

I don't know where you get that information. Olympus CEO has said again and again they are not abandoning 4/3rd standard on the contrary, while Panasonic released two µ4/3rd, Olympus had released so far 3 4/3rd DSLR this year.

Again, (a) that means having to support two standards that are quite close to one another, and that's NOT a good thing from a business perspective, and (b) The looking forward part of the audio/slide presentation with their last annual report indicated that they were going to make their major press in u4/3s, which only makes sense, because if the advantage to the system is its size, u4/3 has a larger advantage. Besides the presentations, I refer you to page seven of the "Consolidated Financial Results for the Fiscal Year Ended March 31, 2009." That'd be the third paragraph in the section labled "Forecast for the Fiscal Year Ended March 31, 2010." So, I get that information from Olympus's own statements about where it is heading. I also trust a company's statements to its investors more than to its customers, since one has the ability to produce more lawsuits than the other

In this case, from a business perspective, I think Panasonic is the smarter of the two companies, and more likely to gain the lion's share of that part of the market before the competition comes rolling in by pressing earlier on u4/3rds. Since Oly is forecasting 0% market share growth for next year and they lost 2% in the year that just ended, it seems they're close to not being able to grow share at all before the DSLR market starts to contract. Five years of negative share growth isn't a good thing, and hoping to simply not lose more share doesn't' seem like a good future- and they're looking at negative sales growth for digital cameras in 2010 according to their annual reports. Your best hope is that they expect to lose more P&S share than anything, though that's a long-term bad strategy in terms of customer loyalty in the trade-up making increased market share more expensive.

Like I said what is the point of buying full frame camera to shoot down in resolution.

To get an AOV that's compatible with the lenses you already own if you've invested in them. Since you get pretty-much the same resolution on the D3x as you'd get on any Olympus camera, and better noise characteristics it's not a disadvantage. You might also want smaller files or faster shooting- not every subject or event needs 20+ MPs.

What's the point of buying a system that only offers a small sensor?

Yes I did. I have used an D700, D300 and D60 from friends of mine. How about you?

Then you're incredibly uninformed about what you've shot with.

I've played with several Olympuses in the store, but given the disadvantages of the smaller sensor in terms of size, noise and DoF, it doesn't fit my work.

 

[dmk1974]

This is all pretty good and in-depth debate, but perhaps we can get back on track to this specific topic? D60, XS, or Other (and please specify that other).

Thanks!

 

[compuwar]

Catch up with what? For what? What? Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah...

Catch up with the IQ of the competition.

Why waste time with all this?

I'm interested in the market and the business aspects, and I'd like to hear the argument for Oly over Panasonic from someone who's obviously chosen Oly.
[/QUOTE]

 

[compuwar]

This is all pretty good and in-depth debate, but perhaps we can get back on track to this specific topic? D60, XS, or Other (and please specify that other).

Thanks!

The truth is it doesn't matter- either will take just fine pictures- and both have lots of future upgrade options. Unless there's a specific lens you want, like the Nikkor 18-200 or Canon 70-200/4 it's a coin toss.

 

[romanaz]

I simply don't get your point. People buying camera that doesn't have in body camera end up paying more for lens when they want image stabilizer in their new lens. So camera with in body IS can put any lens, even legacy one, and still have IS, so to me it is a big plus.

I'd rather has IS that works for my particular lens then one that does a sub-par job on every lens.

I've used a friends E-4?? series with what I believe was an 18-55 or such lens and a longer telephoto lens. The shorter lens wasn't to bad, got about 1 stop stabilization, so I was able to shoot @ 1/30 without much of a problem. On my XSi, I can easily shoot @ 1/15 with my wide-angle 18-55 lens.

rather pay for a better system for me then cheap out for a system that doesn't do what I need. How does that fit your windows vs mac analogy?

(not trying to rag on olympus, that camera was well built and solid and took pretty good pictures, but its not a camera I would use for my uses.)

 

[telecomm]

Here's a D60 vs XS review.

 

[John.B]

Here's a D60 vs XS review.

Because comparing P&S-type features that aren't very useful on an SLR as though they were important makes that site seem authoritative? In-camera editing on a tiny screen with crap for resolution? Live view? Auto mode features? Comes in silver or black? And then to gloss over the AF lens issue with one of the cameras? Really?

 

[telecomm]

Because comparing P&S-type features that aren't very useful on an SLR as though they were important makes that site seem authoritative? In-camera editing on a tiny screen with crap for resolution? Live view? Auto mode features? Comes in silver or black? And then to gloss over the AF lens issue with one of the cameras? Really?

Huh?

Relax John.B.

You may not think things like live view, in camera editing, etc., are important, but they are certainly becoming more common in dSLRs, and many people look for these features. (Much like HD video in higher end models, these "P&S" features are moving up into dSLRs, driven by consumer demand.) Are these critical features? Perhaps not, but they seem to be important to a great number of people buying these cameras, so I think that's reason enough to consider them in a review.

At any rate, this review is just one source, and shouldn't be taken as gospel. But I don't see why it should be ignored, particularly since it's rather relevant to the question asked by the OP.

 

[Mr. G4]

I'd rather has IS that works for my particular lens then one that does a sub-par job on every lens.

I've used a friends E-4?? series with what I believe was an 18-55 or such lens and a longer telephoto lens. The shorter lens wasn't to bad, got about 1 stop stabilization, so I was able to shoot @ 1/30 without much of a problem. On my XSi, I can easily shoot @ 1/15 with my wide-angle 18-55 lens.

rather pay for a better system for me then cheap out for a system that doesn't do what I need. How does that fit your windows vs mac analogy?

(not trying to rag on olympus, that camera was well built and solid and took pretty good pictures, but its not a camera I would use for my uses.)

There is no such lens in the 4/3rd standard. Beside the E-4xx are one of the old model that do not have IS because Olympus went with a small size body versus the bigger body of the E-5xx with IS. As for my analogy, it always surprised me to see Macusers putting down innovative company such as Olympus and use quantity-ecosystem over quality of Zuiko lens or follows what critics said. That's all, but it doesn't surprise me that you don't see the point.

You may consider it a full range, but again, AOV isn't equal to magnification, so it's not as "full" as you portray. I said two *standards*, please take the time to actually read what's said.

Sorry for that. However, the range I gave was taken in account of the magnification. Olympus and Panasonic have only to built new set of lens for µ4/3rd.

Then you're incredibly uninformed about what you've shot with.

I've played with several Olympuses in the store, but given the disadvantages of the smaller sensor in terms of size, noise and DoF, it doesn't fit my work.

You are probably right, I am a simplistic guy, I don't want to think about which lens has a motor built in to go with which camera that doesn't have in body motor built in or vice versa. As for noise, yes 4/3rd sensor produce more noise in higher ISO than 800 for some model and 1600 for other, but like you said not everybody have a need to shoot all the time in 3200 and up. As for DoF, you will be surprised what 4/3rd camera can do. Playing in the store with camera doesn't count

By the way according to the latest test of Canon 500D on DPReview they are catching up with Olympus in term of "noisy" picture

As the OP requested I won't go OT anymore.

Here is one of my picture taken yesterday at the keynote...too many heads in front of me

 

[Mr. G4]

This is all pretty good and in-depth debate, but perhaps we can get back on track to this specific topic? D60, XS, or Other (and please specify that other).

Thanks!

Here is a link to an excellent E-510 with one lens for $449.

Brand new not refurbished

Or the E-520, newer model with two lens for $100 more

 

[John.B]

Huh?

Relax John.B.

You may not think things like live view, in camera editing, etc., are important, but they are certainly becoming more common in dSLRs, and many people look for these features. (Much like HD video in higher end models, these "P&S" features are moving up into dSLRs, driven by consumer demand.) Are these critical features? Perhaps not, but they seem to be important to a great number of people buying these cameras, so I think that's reason enough to consider them in a review.

At any rate, this review is just one source, and shouldn't be taken as gospel. But I don't see why it should be ignored, particularly since it's rather relevant to the question asked by the OP.

Fair enough. Point taken.

But dSLRs aren't P&S and I hate to see them sold to unknowing buyers based on P&S features.

For example, it would've been more to the point in that review to educate a potential dSLR buyer that Live View will never be as fast as using the viewfinder, yet it leaves the new-to-dSLR buyer with the impression that this is a "must have" when a little education would show them its really not all that important.

 

[dmk1974]

Well, I think I am set on getting the D60.

I was planning to get it again from Adorama as a refurb (per my original post), but I also see a good deal on it from Cameta Camera on ebay.

Adorama's refurbs come with a 90-day Nikon warranty.
Cameta Camera's come with a 1-year Cameta warranty.

Do you think one is really better than the other?

 

[compuwar]

Adorama's refurbs come with a 90-day Nikon warranty.
Cameta Camera's come with a 1-year Cameta warranty.

Do you think one is really better than the other?

I'd go with the 1yr warranty.

 

[gkarris]

Well, I think I am set on getting the D60.

I was planning to get it again from Adorama as a refurb (per my original post), but I also see a good deal on it from Cameta Camera on ebay.

Adorama's refurbs come with a 90-day Nikon warranty.
Cameta Camera's come with a 1-year Cameta warranty.

Do you think one is really better than the other?

I ordered my E-420 from Cameta and it was the lowest price, new with a USA warranty.

Cameta is pretty awesome...

If you go with Nikon, don't waste time with their regular lenses - get the ED ones.

I rented a Nikon 80-400 ED and the pics I took with it were outstanding.

 

[iShater]

I rented a Nikon 80-400 ED and the pics I took with it were outstanding.

Where did you rent it from? (Chicagoland right?)

 

[compuwar]

I rented a Nikon 80-400 ED and the pics I took with it were outstanding.

I hate to agree with KR, but:

http://www.kenrockwell.com/nikon/nikortek.htm#ed

(FWIW, the 80-400 is "good," but not "outstanding" in terms of IQ- I own one, and it's the first lens I'd ditch if I had to ditch a lens, especially at the long end.)

 

[dmk1974]

I ordered my E-420 from Cameta and it was the lowest price, new with a USA warranty.

Cameta is pretty awesome...

If you go with Nikon, don't waste time with their regular lenses - get the ED ones.

I rented a Nikon 80-400 ED and the pics I took with it were outstanding.

So wait, are you saying the the $100 lens is better than the $130 lens? See links below.

http://www.adorama.com/NK1855DX2R.html?searchinfo=nikon+18+55+refurbished
http://www.adorama.com/NK1855VRR.html?searchinfo=nikon+refurbished+lens

 

[telecomm]

So wait, are you saying the the $100 lens is better than the $130 lens? See links below.

http://www.adorama.com/NK1855DX2R.html?searchinfo=nikon+18+55+refurbished
http://www.adorama.com/NK1855VRR.html?searchinfo=nikon+refurbished+lens

The VR version of that lens is better.

 

[iShater]

So wait, are you saying the the $100 lens is better than the $130 lens? See links below.

http://www.adorama.com/NK1855DX2R.html?searchinfo=nikon+18+55+refurbished
http://www.adorama.com/NK1855VRR.html?searchinfo=nikon+refurbished+lens

The $130 has VR, that is why it is more expensive.

 

[TheStrudel]

I still think you're best served by trying the cameras you're considering in person, but whatever you pick, budget for lenses, too. All the cameras at that price point will produce good images, but the lens is very important.