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JT2002TJ

macrumors 68020
Nov 7, 2013
2,068
1,396
IDK how much i trust FSD lol. I am nervous about relying on that.

My very first Jeep when i was 15 was my dad's old YJ (1991) that lasted me for 5 years then I got a TJ (2004) that lasted me 3 years and my most recent was a 2017 but i hit a deer during the holidays so it's totaled lol.

Our family only drives jeeps. Dont ask me why lol. It's just what we drive ::p I have actually never driven another vehicle except once that was a jeep and that was to move a friends car lol

I miss my TJ. I used to rock crawl with it. Tons of custom work (4:1 transfer case, ARB lockers, 4:56 axle gears, frame tied in roll cage).

This is the first time in 20+ years that I’ve been without a Mopar. Now I’m all Tesla.

All these driver assistance features require some form of “be ready”. I trust my FSDb, I have learned when it needs help, when it will fail and when I can lower my guard.
 

Anonymous Freak

macrumors 603
Dec 12, 2002
5,604
1,388
Cascadia
Similar here. The Rivian should be fine for us. Yeah, we'll have to stop to recharge slightly more often than we would have stopped with our diesel truck, and for slightly longer; but not so much so as to be a nuisance.
Update: At 16 months of ownership, our Rivian now has over 18,000 miles - about half of those towing.

In 16 months, I have never had a situation where I needed a longer bed. A few times it would have been more convenient to have the old 8' bed than the current 4.5' bed; but I've hauled 12' lumber, a 10' conference room table (plus 8 chairs,) 2 yards of mulch/barkdust on multiple occasions, and the Rivian's shorter bed has never been a dealbreaker. The only time the 8' bed would have been appreciated was when helping a friend move. It took 5 trips in the Rivian when it likely would have only taken 4 in the old Ford. (The Rivian's Gear Tunnel, Front Trunk, and larger back seat allowed for far more "interior" storage per trip than just the shorter bed dropped; in the Ford, only the half-back-seat would have been "interior from the elements" storage.)

For towing, I have towed a small (12' on a single-axle trailer) boat, a small open-top cargo trailer (the converted bed of an old International Harvester pickup,) and two travel trailers:

Our older 28' Forest River Apex:
IMG_7740.jpeg


And our newer 18' NüCamp T@B 400:
IMG_6107.jpeg


We got the T@B this year, after our kids had all moved out, and we realized the Apex was just far bigger than we need any more. Plus we wanted to do longer trips, and the better efficiency of the smaller teardrop would help.

In a year of having Rivian+28' Apex, the longest trip we took was about 200 miles from home, requiring at most one charge stop.

Within two months of buying the 18' NüCamp, we had driven it about 5000 miles, including an ~2000 mile each way trip, where no stop on the outbound or return legs stayed at the same campground two nights in a row. (Did have a two week stop in the middle, visiting family living in the trailer for one week, then taking a 500 mile trailer-less jaunt to stay in a hotel a second week.)

Yes, having to stop to recharge for 30-45 minutes every 90-120 minutes is far less convenient than refueling a gas/diesel vehicle; but this was a vacation, taking a break to stop, stretch, use the bathroom, eat, see the sights, etc, was nice.

There are many EV owners who absolutely bitch and complain about the Electrify America charging network. This gives the impression that finding working chargers is nigh-impossible. It does well to remember that people tend to complain about negative things at a *MUCH* higher rate than they crow about great things; and almost nobody ever even bothers to comment on when things work as expected. We only had one single instance where a charger didn't work as intended. It caused a slight inconvenience, not a trip-interrupting calamity. (Yes, it was Electrify America.)

When the Tesla Supercharger network opens up to non-Tesla EVs later this year via manufacturer-supplied adapters, things will be a lot… different.er. I used to own a Tesla. I never once had a Tesla Supercharger location cause me a problem. Yes, individual stalls/cables may be broken, but Supercharger sites tend to have a lot more stalls, so one or two being out of service isn't a massive problem. Unlike an EA I visited last week where 2 of 6 were broken - on a station that had only been online for less than a week. EA will absolutely have to step up their maintenance to remain even remotely competitive. And in non-Tesla space, EVgo has done a lot of expansion in high-power chargers in the last year. Where they used to trail quite a ways behind EA, now they're nearly even. (Unfortunately, EVgo still has many "legacy" 50kW stations out there, so you have to make sure to research which station type you're planning on stopping at. I made that mistake once during my long road trip - I confused two stations a few miles apart from each other. Had to spend 15 minutes at a slower station to add enough charge to make it to the faster station.)

I've also done a moderate amount of off-roading, including one session of proper rock crawling, and got my first battle scar, scraped the front side fender against a tree. Apparently the "green pickup" *REALLY* wanted to be a tree-hugger. It caused the black plastic trim above the wheel well to shear one of its connecting points off. Convinced the Rivian repair shop to just screw a new attachment screw in rather than replace the entire side panel. I think the repair guy was happy I was willing to accept a "janky" repair, treating it as "just a truck", rather than some expensive never-to-see-use-it's-intended-for item.
 
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AlaskaMoose

macrumors 68040
Apr 26, 2008
3,586
13,430
Alaska
I’m afraid you are very out of touch. Recently a car park at a UK airport burned down. Many vehicles (all types) were destroyed. Of course the fire brigade investigated and the culprit was found to be an ICE vehicle. Note I’m not saying all ice vehicles are fire risks or whatever, just these things happen. But naturally there were many posts and articles stating it was an EV that started the fire.
This is just typical. There has been a noticeable anti EV movement that is clearly matching someone’s agenda. It doesn’t take an expert who benefits from these stories.
Of course false stories generate online interest. Both support and denial. Either is fine with the publisher. It is getting them further up the Google rankings.
It’s so obvious that there are more anti EV stories that many UK sites have commented on it.
My view about such things are as follows: There are both anti-ICE and anti-EV movements taking place, and the most of it that happens, the more divided the consumers become. This division benefit investors from all sides, including the ones investing in the oil industry, aviation, transportation, automobile manufacturing (EVs or not), etc. Every product in the market has a value.

However, as a consumer everyone of us can very well conduct our own research and arrive to the right conclusion by looking at the crumbs of truths told by EV and ICE automobile drivers at the user forums. The automobile recalls, at least in the US (I don't know much about other countries) are widely published by the industries and government. Several automobile manufacturers' recalls were published in November and December 2023. It is not very difficult to find which recalls the manufacturer has on your vehicle. All you need is the vehicle's VIN number.
 

AlaskaMoose

macrumors 68040
Apr 26, 2008
3,586
13,430
Alaska
Just saw this for the first time. It made me giggle but also a bit close to the truth. My wife has the EV, I’m taking the Range Rover and are off to drive back to the Netherlands tomorrow morning. Filling up costs me €231 😔

LOL My wife is betting I’ll come back with an EV one of these trips.
I have watched a few videos of long range driving from the UK and Australia where EV's and ICE automobiles were driven. These videos are worth watching, at least by drivers in the UK and AU who are trying to figure to cost for charging and refueling on long distance driving. It seems that in Europe diesel fuel is more commonly used by smaller automobiles and SUV's than in the US. Search, "EV vs diesel long-distance driving," if you are interested.

There is another video from the UK that I found interesting: this one is titled, "we drove several EV's until their batteries died" (something similar to this). The EV that made it the farthest is a Mercedes model.
 
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Apple fanboy

macrumors Ivy Bridge
Feb 21, 2012
56,985
55,997
Behind the Lens, UK
My view about such things are as follows: There are both anti-ICE and anti-EV movements taking place, and the most of it that happens, the more divided the consumers become. This division benefit investors from all sides, including the ones investing in the oil industry, aviation, transportation, automobile manufacturing (EVs or not), etc. Every product in the market has a value.

However, as a consumer everyone of us can very well conduct our own research and arrive to the right conclusion by looking at the crumbs of truths told by EV and ICE automobile drivers at the user forums. The automobile recalls, at least in the US (I don't know much about other countries) are widely published by the industries and government. Several automobile manufacturers' recalls were published in November and December 2023. It is not very difficult to find which recalls the manufacturer has on your vehicle. All you need is the vehicle's VIN number.
I’ve not seen a movement that is posting complete lies about ICE vehicles like they do about EV’s

Also not sure why you mention recalls? That happens to all types of vehicles no matter the drive train. Had nothing to do with what I posted.
 
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The-Real-Deal82

macrumors P6
Jan 17, 2013
17,311
25,461
Wales, United Kingdom
My view about such things are as follows: There are both anti-ICE and anti-EV movements taking place, and the most of it that happens, the more divided the consumers become. This division benefit investors from all sides, including the ones investing in the oil industry, aviation, transportation, automobile manufacturing (EVs or not), etc. Every product in the market has a value.

However, as a consumer everyone of us can very well conduct our own research and arrive to the right conclusion by looking at the crumbs of truths told by EV and ICE automobile drivers at the user forums. The automobile recalls, at least in the US (I don't know much about other countries) are widely published by the industries and government. Several automobile manufacturers' recalls were published in November and December 2023. It is not very difficult to find which recalls the manufacturer has on your vehicle. All you need is the vehicle's VIN number.

There are people in favour of and against each type of vehicle sure. The difference is the anti ICE comments tend to come from people who have driven ICE vehicles and have transitioned to EV’s. The anti EV comments primarily seem to come from people who have no real world experience of driving an EV and quite often this is exposed by what they say and assume in their criticisms.

I’m an ICE driver who has an EV on the drive too and has experienced the best of both worlds. Daily driving where I live has the EV winning hands down. It’s a smooth, and easy experience. If I wanted to drive up to Scotland in one hit without much stopping, I’d take my ICE car but that is about the only benefit right now. Range is becoming less of an issue and once cars come with 600 ranges, ICE vehicles will have no significant advantage IMO. The great thing we are enjoying right now is how cheap EV’s are to run in comparison to my ICE car which costs around £90 to fill the tank. A full charge for us costs about £10 overnight. As a daily driver, ignoring the fact we can charge also for free, that is still incredibly cheap.

EV’s are also good in the extreme cold, which just know concerns you the most. An Audi Q4’d performance as I shared on the other thread doesn’t do too bad in Finnish extremes:

a30aea261922a6dae840fd40125ebe67.jpg
 
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Apple fanboy

macrumors Ivy Bridge
Feb 21, 2012
56,985
55,997
Behind the Lens, UK
There are people in favour of and against each type of vehicle sure. The difference is the anti ICE comments tend to come from people who have driven ICE vehicles and have transitioned to EV’s. The anti EV comments primarily seem to come from people who have no real world experience of driving an EV and quite often this is exposed by what they say and assume in their criticisms.

I’m an ICE driver who has an EV on the drive too and has experienced the best of both worlds. Daily driving where I live has the EV winning hands down. It’s a smooth, and easy experience. If I wanted to drive up to Scotland in one hit without much stopping, I’d take my ICE car but that is about the only benefit right now. Range is becoming less of an issue and once cars come with 600 ranges, ICE vehicles will have no significant advantage IMO. The great thing we are enjoying right now is how cheap EV’s are to run in comparison to my ICE car which costs around £90 to fill the tank. A full charge for us costs about £10 overnight. As a daily driver, ignoring the fact we can charge also for free, that is still incredibly cheap.

EV’s are also good in the extreme cold, which just know concerns you the most. An Audi Q4’d performance as I shared on the other thread doesn’t do too bad in Finnish extremes:

a30aea261922a6dae840fd40125ebe67.jpg
Don’t be silly. You can’t possibly be charging for less than it would cost to buy diesel. I saw a video posted on this very forum telling you you’re wrong by someone, so you must be mistaken…..😉
 

Audentia

macrumors regular
May 28, 2014
108
155
Silicon Valley
EVs (even though I have one, haven't had really cold weather -- not like alaskamoose), do take a hit in cold weather. I suppose if you are discussing south of -15F it's cold. A model 3 with the heat pump will really suffer from what I gather from other youtube videos. It's hard to scavage any heat from the air at those temps and the cabin will take a long time to heat up.

Taking another example, a Rivian (at least some models) who have a resistive pack for heat and a bigger battery will suffer far less. Of course you have to spend north of $90K to get that model in comparison to many ICE cars, with a heater block option, could do more than okay in extreme cold at a fraction of the cost.
yeah, those are fair points. I think as someone else stated all vehicles struggle in some way in very cold temps and ICEs have had longer to figure out solutions and EVs are figuring out new ways to solve it, some of which you mention, and it will just take some time for costs to come down. Again, a big part of this is infrastructure, if you can charge in the cold its not much an issue just like having an extra gallon of gas easily available.

Rivian is set to release their cheaper model in 2 years, so all of this is rapidly changing, but I understand for some people with a certain budget and living in certain conditions ICE's make more sense today, and thats fine, I'm just saying the trend is rapidly shifting towards EVs being better in all applications, and generally its already there.
 
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cyb3rdud3

macrumors 601
Jun 22, 2014
4,079
2,744
UK
Just missed my ferry crossing like many others as French customs was super slow. It's very cold, very wet at the docks. My windows are steaming up. I don't fancy idling my 5.0 liter V8 super charged for two hours whilst stationary.

Gosh I miss my wife's Polestar. I wouldn't think twice of keeping everything running. With heated seats and all. And whilst watching some Netflix or the likes.

But now, this is the ice experience. Cold with steamy windows. I might come home with a other EV from the Netherlands depending on what's available 🤣

20240102_125847.jpg
 
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AlaskaMoose

macrumors 68040
Apr 26, 2008
3,586
13,430
Alaska
Just missed my ferry crossing like many others as French customs was super slow. It's very cold, very wet at the docks. My windows are steaming up. I don't fancy idling my 5.0 liter V8 super charged for two hours whilst stationary.

Gosh I miss my wife's Polestar. I wouldn't think twice of keeping everything running. With heated seats and all. And whilst watching some Netflix or the likes.

But now, this is the ice experience. Cold with steamy windows. I might come home with a other EV from the Netherlands depending on what's available 🤣

View attachment 2331702
A 5L engine does not consume a lot of fuel on low idle speed once it has warmed to normal operating temperature. In this case the RPM drops to 500-600 RPM. When starting a very cold engine the ECU sets it to a high RPM speed, even 1,500 RPM when extremely cold, then the RPM is gradually reduced by the ECU as the engine warms up. It does not burn much fuel, because at idle the engine doesn't have to produce HP.

When taking photos of the Auroras during the winter the ambient temperatures could be -20 degrees F. (-28...C) and I let my trucks idle for several hours at a time. One truck has a 5.3L V8 engine, and the other a 5.7L. I have to let the engine idle to keep the cab "toasty warm," and also because I want to make sure that I won't get stranded out there (too far from the city). But I avoid being "out there" at night when it is colder than -20 degrees :)
 
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AlaskaMoose

macrumors 68040
Apr 26, 2008
3,586
13,430
Alaska
There are people in favour of and against each type of vehicle sure. The difference is the anti ICE comments tend to come from people who have driven ICE vehicles and have transitioned to EV’s. The anti EV comments primarily seem to come from people who have no real world experience of driving an EV and quite often this is exposed by what they say and assume in their criticisms.

I’m an ICE driver who has an EV on the drive too and has experienced the best of both worlds. Daily driving where I live has the EV winning hands down. It’s a smooth, and easy experience. If I wanted to drive up to Scotland in one hit without much stopping, I’d take my ICE car but that is about the only benefit right now. Range is becoming less of an issue and once cars come with 600 ranges, ICE vehicles will have no significant advantage IMO. The great thing we are enjoying right now is how cheap EV’s are to run in comparison to my ICE car which costs around £90 to fill the tank. A full charge for us costs about £10 overnight. As a daily driver, ignoring the fact we can charge also for free, that is still incredibly cheap.

EV’s are also good in the extreme cold, which just know concerns you the most. An Audi Q4’d performance as I shared on the other thread doesn’t do too bad in Finnish extremes:
Perhaps you have misunderstood what I have said? I haven't said that either EV's and ICE vehicles do or don't do well when driven in extremely cold temperatures. But if you think that the iD4 when being in very cold weather warms the battery when its state of charge is below 20%, then you should watch this video, which by the way, is presented by an EV driver. Please keep in mind that this is not an anti-EV rumor of false news (watch the entire video, since the VW iD4 with a cold battery is included):
 
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AlaskaMoose

macrumors 68040
Apr 26, 2008
3,586
13,430
Alaska
All I have said is that it is not difficult at all for one to sift though all the rumors and false news about both EV's and ICE automobiles in order to arrive to a good or fair conclusion. A lot of the articles and videos posted all over the place aren't necessarily correct, but if one can keep an open mind and and do one's own research, one could at times find a few surprises. What interferes with one realizing truths are one's perceptions of others. Both EV's and ICE automobiles have their respective pros and cons.
 
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cyb3rdud3

macrumors 601
Jun 22, 2014
4,079
2,744
UK
A 5L engine does not consume a lot of fuel on low idle speed once it has warmed to normal operating temperature. In this case the RPM drops to 500-600 RPM. When starting a very cold engine the ECU sets it to a high RPM speed, even 1,500 RPM when extremely cold, then the RPM is gradually reduced by the ECU as the engine warms up. It does not burn much fuel, because at idle the engine doesn't have to produce HP.
Yes, sorry I didn't clarify it. It wasn't the fuel I was worried about, it was idling a Jaguar Land Rover engine in a Range Rover that I was worried about 🤣 I didn't want it to fail on me. :p
When taking photos of the Auroras during the winter the ambient temperatures could be -20 degrees F. (-28...C) and I let my trucks idle for several hours at a time. One truck has a 5.3L V8 engine, and the other a 5.7L. I have to let the engine idle to keep the cab "toasty warm," and also because I want to make sure that I won't get stranded out there (too far from the city). But I avoid being "out there" at night when it is colder than -20 degrees :)
Nice, and yes, you would rather not shut it off then.
 

The-Real-Deal82

macrumors P6
Jan 17, 2013
17,311
25,461
Wales, United Kingdom
All I have said is that it is not difficult at all for one to sift though all the rumors and false news about both EV's and ICE automobiles in order to arrive to a good or fair conclusion. A lot of the articles and videos posted all over the place aren't necessarily correct, but if one can keep an open mind and and do one's own research, one could at times find a few surprises. What interferes with one realizing truths are one's perceptions of others. Both EV's and ICE automobiles have their respective pros and cons.

Like with any type of vehicle you will only have reliable knowledge if you drive and live with it for a period of time. If you type in ‘EV issues’ or ‘Diesel car issues’ on YouTube, there will be a plethora of videos with horror stories of people experiencing expensive failures and repairs. I’ve never seen anything to suggest owning an EV is more expensive and risky than owning a diesel or petrol though? Anything can go wrong with any car. I watched a video last night of a guy in the Czech Republic who has a Tesla Model X (2016) and it’s done 200k miles. It’s got far too much rust on it for my tastes but mechanically it was excellent and perhaps capable of doing plenty more miles. It’s always pot luck with cars.

You’re very sceptical of EV’s and jump from one extreme issue to the next or suggest you need to idle your car in car parks or come up with a scenario where you’ll be needing to preheat a battery and charge locally due to lack of charge. I know you live in a very remote and extreme country in regard to weather and maybe EV’s aren’t suitable for your style of driving or location, but it looks like Alaska does have citizens who are making the transition due to the amount of public chargers etc. Why not rent an EV and give it a go for a week and see how you get on? I was sceptical like you until we lived with one and probably wouldn’t be driving one now if my wife hadn’t got one with her promotion, but am pleasantly surprised by how easy they are to drive and keep charged.
 

Apple fanboy

macrumors Ivy Bridge
Feb 21, 2012
56,985
55,997
Behind the Lens, UK
Like with any type of vehicle you will only have reliable knowledge if you drive and live with it for a period of time. If you type in ‘EV issues’ or ‘Diesel car issues’ on YouTube, there will be a plethora of videos with horror stories of people experiencing expensive failures and repairs. I’ve never seen anything to suggest owning an EV is more expensive and risky than owning a diesel or petrol though? Anything can go wrong with any car. I watched a video last night of a guy in the Czech Republic who has a Tesla Model X (2016) and it’s done 200k miles. It’s got far too much rust on it for my tastes but mechanically it was excellent and perhaps capable of doing plenty more miles. It’s always pot luck with cars.

You’re very sceptical of EV’s and jump from one extreme issue to the next or suggest you need to idle your car in car parks or come up with a scenario where you’ll be needing to preheat a battery and charge locally due to lack of charge. I know you live in a very remote and extreme country in regard to weather and maybe EV’s aren’t suitable for your style of driving or location, but it looks like Alaska does have citizens who are making the transition due to the amount of public chargers etc. Why not rent an EV and give it a go for a week and see how you get on? I was sceptical like you until we lived with one and probably wouldn’t be driving one now if my wife hadn’t got one with her promotion, but am pleasantly surprised by how easy they are to drive and keep charged.
Exactly. Those of us who have been driving EV’s for some time are finding the ‘internet’ problems one can find are really fake news most of the time.
Are EV’s perfect? Of course not. But for most people, most of the time they are a very small adjustment to how you drive.
Of course the offset is improved air quality for all. I think that is worth it. Not everyone does.
But I also prefer not having to go to the petrol station, pay annual service charges or have cycles for replacing oil, filters and cam belts.
I find the driving experience better too.
 

JT2002TJ

macrumors 68020
Nov 7, 2013
2,068
1,396
There are and will always be people who cannot live with an EV. Examples are people in Alaska that need a plane to go into town, people who live on remote islands. But even people who live in NYC with only street parking have charging options. I work in Brooklyn, there are 4 L2 street chargers in front of my job, that can only be used for active charging. These are getting heavy use. They are sprinkled all across the city, and the numbers are increasing incredibly fast. These are 3rd party chargers that paid NYC for contracts to install and maintain street parking chargers.

For the vast majority of people an EV can work and make life a lot easier. Yes, farmers, contractors, and other ICE work vehicles need to coexist.

As said, people even around me keep saying how it won't work for them. But yet, my household is fully EV, and I spend 3 hours per day (26 miles each way) in my EV. Not only that, but I daily charge both EVs using 1 wall connector. My wife's car is parked in the driveway, mine is in the garage. When I get home, I park, plug her car in, 1-2 hours later, I move the plug to my car and by the next morning we have 2 EVs ready to go. Both preconditioned on a schedule (it even melts all the ice that forms on her car windows).

My wife used to have to remember to remote start her car 20 minutes before she was ready to go to work, and hope she left the heater on a hot enough setting to actually do something.

Tesla has scheduled pre-conditioning by GPS location. I have my TMY set to precondition by the time I'm ready to leave (work and home), I don't even have to think about it. By the time leave work and walk to my uncovered parking spot, the vehicle is fully ready to go.

I use about 40% of my TMY LR battery during my daily commute in the winter <32-degree days. Since I only charge to 80%, it means I'm only using 1/2 of my usable battery with my long commute and preconditioning.
 

Apple fanboy

macrumors Ivy Bridge
Feb 21, 2012
56,985
55,997
Behind the Lens, UK
There are and will always be people who cannot live with an EV. Examples are people in Alaska that need a plane to go into town, people who live on remote islands. But even people who live in NYC with only street parking have charging options. I work in Brooklyn, there are 4 L2 street chargers in front of my job, that can only be used for active charging. These are getting heavy use. They are sprinkled all across the city, and the numbers are increasing incredibly fast. These are 3rd party chargers that paid NYC for contracts to install and maintain street parking chargers.

For the vast majority of people an EV can work and make life a lot easier. Yes, farmers, contractors, and other ICE work vehicles need to coexist.

As said, people even around me keep saying how it won't work for them. But yet, my household is fully EV, and I spend 3 hours per day (26 miles each way) in my EV. Not only that, but I daily charge both EVs using 1 wall connector. My wife's car is parked in the driveway, mine is in the garage. When I get home, I park, plug her car in, 1-2 hours later, I move the plug to my car and by the next morning we have 2 EVs ready to go. Both preconditioned on a schedule (it even melts all the ice that forms on her car windows).

My wife used to have to remember to remote start her car 20 minutes before she was ready to go to work, and hope she left the heater on a hot enough setting to actually do something.

Tesla has scheduled pre-conditioning by GPS location. I have my TMY set to precondition by the time I'm ready to leave (work and home), I don't even have to think about it. By the time leave work and walk to my uncovered parking spot, the vehicle is fully ready to go.

I use about 40% of my TMY LR battery during my daily commute in the winter <32-degree days. Since I only charge to 80%, it means I'm only using 1/2 of my usable battery with my long commute and preconditioning.
Couldn’t agree more. ICE and EV will co exist for a longtime. They are not suitable for everyone. But I think they are suitable for the majority of people are prepared to adapt.
Unfortunately too many people get hung up on minor issues that really are not there.
Our batteries don’t die after 1-2 years, they don’t explode or stop working when it’s too warm or too cold.
The grid copes just fine.

As you say. Most charging is done when you are tucked up in bed not even thinking about it.

Just topped mine up. The rest I’ll do when I get to work. It’s free after all.
 
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