Who has or is planning to get an electric car / EV Talk

[AlaskaMoose]

a. Anecdotally there are always exceptions, generally however, ICEs still have far more parts / points of failure than EVs which incur more maintenance costs.

b. The point I am making is when you put all the pieces together, EVs are a big jump in both longevity and lowering the total cost of ownership, and its only going to get better as EVs improve. Thats something to be excited about I think.

c. If you're curious about Cybertruck steer by wire, this is a fun one

a. Somewhat true as, "more moving parts". But you should also consider all the hundreds of cells and electrical links in the battery.

b. It is too soon to be able to figure electric automobile longevity versus ICE automobile longevity. For example, Tesla Company was founded in 2003, I believe. However, electric forklifts, golf cars, and so on have been around for many years already, and their longevity has been proven many times over.

c. I don't find the Cybertruck interesting at all. Steer by wire is interesting but it is not a new idea. The same for rear-wheel steering, and the electrical rate chosen (48 volts?). Higher voltages than that have been used for many years in the electric forklifts used by the retail industry. Some industrial lifts use both AC and DC power. Steer-by wire, throttle-by wire, fly-by wire, and even drive-by wire are relatively old technologies that are evolving. The same for traction/stability controls (includes ABS) in automobiles, the anti-skid systems used in aircraft, and so on have been used for quite a lot of years. The same for rear-wheel steering used in fire trucks and the large snow blowers used at airfields. There also is "articulating steering." This is available in heavy equipment front-end loaders and graders. Even generating electricity from the brakes is not a new idea. It just has evolved to what it is today.

 

[Audentia]

a. Somewhat true as, "more moving parts". But you should also consider all the hundreds of cells and electrical links in the battery.

b. It is too soon to be able to figure electric automobile longevity versus ICE automobile longevity. For example, Tesla Company was founded in 2003, I believe. However, electric forklifts, golf cars, and so on have been around for many years already, and their longevity has been proven many times over.

c. I don't find the Cybertruck interesting at all. Steer by wire is interesting but it is not a new idea. The same for rear-wheel steering, and the electrical rate chosen (48 volts?). Higher voltages than that have been used for many years in the electric forklifts used by the retail industry. Some industrial lifts use both AC and DC power. Steer-by wire, throttle-by wire, fly-by wire, and even drive-by wire are relatively old technologies that are evolving. The same for traction/stability controls (includes ABS) in automobiles, the anti-skid systems used in aircraft, and so on have been used for quite a lot of years. The same for rear-wheel steering used in fire trucks and the large snow blowers used at airfields. There also is "articulating steering." This is available in heavy equipment front-end loaders and graders. Even generating electricity from the brakes is not a new idea. It just has evolved to what it is today.

an idea is one thing. implementing in a fork lift or golf cart is another. implementing in a regulated production consumer vehicle that regularly drives over 80mph is entirely another.

48v is also pretty neat for a variety of reasons. I will never buy the cybertruck, I have no need, but I can appreciate the engineering.

I just don't understand your negativity. You seem to imply if something existed in some form before then it negates the benefit of it appearing in EVs, but thats not true with any product or innovation. What Tesla and other EV companies are doing is innovative even if the technology existed before. It's just the same as the iPhone, touch screens existed before, but not in a consumer device like that.

It's still early yes, but already TCO is lower and it seems pretty clear to being a better path forward.

 

[Audentia]

Sure where they are the same price I totally agree an EV wins. In reality I've found that in the EU there seems to be about a 15-20K 'scene tax' on EV cars. If all things were equal and you can discard the capital required for the purchase then yes 100% an EV is way cheaper to run. But we are a long way away from that.

I'm not sure on pricing in EU, but ok we can agree on that.

I don't think its a long way though, people forget how fast the industry is moving, I remember debating colleagues who thought Tesla would go bankrupt not that long ago. Furthermore, the model S was $100k in 2012, model 3 $50k in 2017 (and with more range!), and it seems many companies, not just Tesla, are on track to having a $25k option in 2025. That's a clear path to being totally game over for ICE.

When you have 800v, 350kw charging with a 60kw pack, thats like 300mi range and recharging in 10minutes and over 120mpge efficiency. And this will be $25k, want more range, just pay more, easy like getting more storage on an iPhone. (maybe Apple's pricing we don't always agree with lol, but point being option is there)

Honestly, imo, the only downside with EVs is they are improving so fast, it will hurt the resale value, they're like iPhones in the early days but of course people can't afford to upgrade their car each year. But this is a good sign of rapid innovation, and just like iPhones once the killer features of range and recharge speed are "good enough" people can keep them a very long time.

 

[Apple fanboy]

I'm not sure on pricing in EU, but ok we can agree on that.

I don't think its a long way though, people forget how fast the industry is moving, I remember debating colleagues who thought Tesla would go bankrupt not that long ago. Furthermore, the model S was $100k in 2012, model 3 $50k in 2017 (and with more range!), and it seems many companies, not just Tesla, are on track to having a $25k option in 2025. That's a clear path to being totally game over for ICE.

When you have 800v, 350kw charging with a 60kw pack, thats like 300mi range and recharging in 10minutes and over 120mpge efficiency. And this will be $25k, want more range, just pay more, easy like getting more storage on an iPhone. (maybe Apple's pricing we don't always agree with lol, but point being option is there)

Honestly, imo, the only downside with EVs is they are improving so fast, it will hurt the resale value, they're like iPhones in the early days but of course people can't afford to upgrade their car each year. But this is a good sign of rapid innovation, and just like iPhones once the killer features of range and recharge speed are "good enough" people can keep them a very long time.

The range and charging speed are much less of an issue than people realise. 95% of all charging is done on AC charging at the home or work. Most people don’t drive more than 150 miles a day.
When I do stop, by the time I’ve had a coffee and used the loo it’s done. If it was twice as quick it wouldn’t really make that much difference.

 

[Audentia]

The range and charging speed are much less of an issue than people realise. 95% of all charging is done on AC charging at the home or work. Most people don’t drive more than 150 miles a day.
When I do stop, by the time I’ve had a coffee and used the loo it’s done. If it was twice as quick it wouldn’t really make that much difference.

This is also true. For some people who can't charge at home tho, speed matters, so I think it will help for widespread adoption. But yeah even today its already quite good, (my model S was 150kw and now everything is 250kw, big jump already) and totally, charging at home is the most convenient, no ICE can do that.

 

[Apple fanboy]

This is also true. For some people who can't charge at home tho, speed matters, so I think it will help for widespread adoption. But yeah even today its already quite good, (my model S was 150kw and now everything is 250kw, big jump already) and totally, charging at home is the most convenient, no ICE can do that.

I do have a home charger. But I charge at work mostly because it’s free. Best type of charging!

 

[cyb3rdud3]

This is also true. For some people who can't charge at home tho, speed matters, so I think it will help for widespread adoption. But yeah even today its already quite good, (my model S was 150kw and now everything is 250kw, big jump already) and totally, charging at home is the most convenient, no ICE can do that.

Exactly, it’s a different kind of mindset. The convenience of starting every day with a full tank is not to be under estimated. No ice can do that.

Also many hotel or holiday accommodation charges the EV. Many even free. I’ve never had a free petrol fill up at a hotel or holiday villa.

PS. In the UK 57% of homes have some form of off road parking. Further more all new builds have to have EV charging as part of building regulations. I appreciate it’s not the same around the globe but the UK isn’t really that progressive. Don’t forget that they represent us, we should demand this from our politicians. I’m buying in the Netherlands as well and it’s not even an issue, it’s standard and part on the options list and street furniture.

 

[The-Real-Deal82]

This is also true. For some people who can't charge at home tho, speed matters, so I think it will help for widespread adoption. But yeah even today its already quite good, (my model S was 150kw and now everything is 250kw, big jump already) and totally, charging at home is the most convenient, no ICE can do that.

There will be a lot of owners in the future like that, especially in Wales or cities like London, and the North of England where old working class terraced homes with on street parking are common. It’s already been discussed in the Welsh Senedd about the health and safety aspect of charging cables being run across pavements. I think there is now a scheme where the council will modify pavements to allow this in some cases for a large fee of course. I’m glad I have a driveway and charging is free at my wife’s work at the moment.

Public charging is not ideal as a sole source for owners this point, it just about works occasionally on the go, but I’d hate to be relying on it. Too many issues with vandalism and unreliable services. My wife’s boss lives in Fulham and he said charging in London is very hit and miss, even now. He tends to charge in Reading a couple of times a week which is fine if that is the direction needed.

This is a good vid demonstrating some of the difficulties:

 

[cyb3rdud3]

There will be a lot of owners in the future like that, especially in Wales or cities like London, and the North of England where old working class terraced homes with on street parking are common. It’s already been discussed in the Welsh Senedd about the health and safety aspect of charging cables being run across pavements. I think there is now a scheme where the council will modify pavements to allow this in some cases for a large fee of course. I’m glad I have a driveway and charging is free at my wife’s work at the moment.

Public charging is not ideal as a sole source for owners this point, it just about works occasionally on the go, but I’d hate to be relying on it. Too many issues with vandalism and unreliable services. My wife’s boss lives in Fulham and he said charging in London is very hit and miss, even now. He tends to charge in Reading a couple of times a week which is fine if that is the direction needed.

This is a good vid demonstrating some of the difficulties:

Blimey what a whinging unprepared guy, never like him. Remind me of the voice from that Little Princes TV program. Can't go to Leeds Castle with an EV? Costs a lot? LOL Even his AirBnB didn't work out. Oh, dear. He should stick to his second hand car dealership. When residing in the UK, just have a PlugSurfing card or Electroverse and you can charge in any country at any charger without having to faff about.

In my experience, this is not representative at all.

 

[AlaskaMoose]

an idea is one thing. implementing in a fork lift or golf cart is another. implementing in a regulated production consumer vehicle that regularly drives over 80mph is entirely another.

48v is also pretty neat for a variety of reasons. I will never buy the cybertruck, I have no need, but I can appreciate the engineering.

I just don't understand your negativity. You seem to imply if something existed in some form before then it negates the benefit of it appearing in EVs, but thats not true with any product or innovation. What Tesla and other EV companies are doing is innovative even if the technology existed before. It's just the same as the iPhone, touch screens existed before, but not in a consumer device like that.

It's still early yes, but already TCO is lower and it seems pretty clear to being a better path forward.

I already told of the numerous different voltages used throughout the industries, including aviation, both military and commercial. Perhaps you didn't understand what I wrote? ABS, traction/stability controls, anti-skid systems used in aircraft, different voltages used throughout all industries (including aviation), rear steering, articulating steering, steering-by wire, fly-by wire, throttle-by wire, drive-by wire, and so on aren't new technologies. My sayings aren't negative, they are a reality. You and others may "see" or perceive them as being negative, but I don't. These technologies are evolving rapidly, but aren't new ideas. All of these technological advancements benefit humankind, but just because the Cybertruck doesn't impress me it does not mean that I am negative toward the bells and whistles it incorporates. I have no idea what to used such an expensive truck for.

If I would want to drive an EV in the place I live at, the ones I would be most interested in would be the most expensive Mercedes and BMW offerings. There are some videos at "youtube" where the hosts (from the UK) drove several EVs, including one Tesla, Ford, Mercedes, and so on until their batteries "died." Mercedes also achieved the longest drive ranges in some tests conducted in the US.

Where I live at it gets very cold, and I park my vehicles outdoors. The other "toys' are kept in two warm garages. Long drive ranges and lots of engines idling are the norm over here. When very cold outdoors, supermarket shoppers leave their cars idling at the parking lots. This is done to prevent veggies, fruits, flowers, etc. from freezing in the car. One can also place the groceries in insulated containers to avoid freezing between the warm store and the car idling at the parking lot.

 

[The-Real-Deal82]

Where I live at it gets very cold, and I park my vehicles outdoors. The other "toys' are kept in two warm garages. Long drive ranges and lots of engines idling are the norm over here. When very cold outdoors, supermarket shoppers leave their cars idling at the parking lots. This is done to prevent veggies, fruits, flowers, etc. from freezing in the car. One can also place the groceries in insulated containers to avoid freezing between the warm store and the car idling at the parking lot.

A much cleaner version of that is an EV setting its internal temperature to keep the cabin warm or cold. So much better than a car park full of idling combustion engines producing fumes for us to breathe. Less chance of the car getting stolen too, but appreciate some love the smell, and don’t want to live too long etc etc.

 

[Apple fanboy]

A much cleaner version of that is an EV setting its internal temperature to keep the cabin warm or cold. So much better than a car park full of idling combustion engines producing fumes for us to breathe. Less chance of the car getting stolen too, but appreciate some love the smell, and don’t want to live too long etc etc.

It’s actually illegal in the UK to sit with your ICE car idling. But I think there should be exceptions to that. Demisting the inside of your windows for example.

 

[The-Real-Deal82]

It’s actually illegal in the UK to sit with your ICE car idling. But I think there should be exceptions to that. Demisting the inside of your windows for example.

Yeah they can’t really enforce it for winter starts as you wouldn’t be able to drive off without clearing off ice and condensation. It’s one of those laws where it’s never enforced in my experience.

 

[Apple fanboy]

Yeah they can’t really enforce it for winter starts as you wouldn’t be able to drive off without clearing off ice and condensation. It’s one of those laws where it’s never enforced in my experience.

Indeed. However not something I have to worry about in my EV. I just set my departure time and it’s all ready for me when I leave. Hot or cold. It’s a great upgrade from scraping my Golf.

 

[cyb3rdud3]

I already told of the numerous different voltages used throughout the industries, including aviation, both military and commercial. Perhaps you didn't understand what I wrote? ABS, traction/stability controls, anti-skid systems used in aircraft, different voltages used throughout all industries (including aviation), rear steering, articulating steering, steering-by wire, fly-by wire, throttle-by wire, drive-by wire, and so on aren't new technologies. My sayings aren't negative, they are a reality. You and others may "see" or perceive them as being negative, but I don't. These technologies are evolving rapidly, but aren't new ideas. All of these technological advancements benefit humankind, but just because the Cybertruck doesn't impress me it does not mean that I am negative toward the bells and whistles it incorporates. I have no idea what to used such an expensive truck for.

If I would want to drive an EV in the place I live at, the ones I would be most interested in would be the most expensive Mercedes and BMW offerings. There are some videos at "youtube" where the hosts (from the UK) drove several EVs, including one Tesla, Ford, Mercedes, and so on until their batteries "died." Mercedes also achieved the longest drive ranges in some tests conducted in the US.

Where I live at it gets very cold, and I park my vehicles outdoors. The other "toys' are kept in two warm garages. Long drive ranges and lots of engines idling are the norm over here. When very cold outdoors, supermarket shoppers leave their cars idling at the parking lots. This is done to prevent veggies, fruits, flowers, etc. from freezing in the car. One can also place the groceries in insulated containers to avoid freezing between the warm store and the car idling at the parking lot.

Yup something a few people forget. I have a few friends who live in such places as well, generally have even got engine heaters to keep their ICE vehicles plugged in and stop them from freezing.

It’s the exception in the world though. And with better infrastructure that could be improved very much so. But I do appreciate that when you arrive with say 10% battery based on a warm car driving measurement, the science is there that when you switch it off and goes cold the battery is actually 0% charged. And that will be a big problem in some climates. But such cold is also a problem for ICE cars and has been overcome. This will be overcome for EV as well.

 

[Audentia]

I already told of the numerous different voltages used throughout the industries, including aviation, both military and commercial. Perhaps you didn't understand what I wrote? ABS, traction/stability controls, anti-skid systems used in aircraft, different voltages used throughout all industries (including aviation), rear steering, articulating steering, steering-by wire, fly-by wire, throttle-by wire, drive-by wire, and so on aren't new technologies. My sayings aren't negative, they are a reality. You and others may "see" or perceive them as being negative, but I don't. These technologies are evolving rapidly, but aren't new ideas. All of these technological advancements benefit humankind, but just because the Cybertruck doesn't impress me it does not mean that I am negative toward the bells and whistles it incorporates. I have no idea what to used such an expensive truck for.

If I would want to drive an EV in the place I live at, the ones I would be most interested in would be the most expensive Mercedes and BMW offerings. There are some videos at "youtube" where the hosts (from the UK) drove several EVs, including one Tesla, Ford, Mercedes, and so on until their batteries "died." Mercedes also achieved the longest drive ranges in some tests conducted in the US.

Where I live at it gets very cold, and I park my vehicles outdoors. The other "toys' are kept in two warm garages. Long drive ranges and lots of engines idling are the norm over here. When very cold outdoors, supermarket shoppers leave their cars idling at the parking lots. This is done to prevent veggies, fruits, flowers, etc. from freezing in the car. One can also place the groceries in insulated containers to avoid freezing between the warm store and the car idling at the parking lot.

I understood, I just didn't comment on it directly because it has no relevance to the topic at hand of passenger vehicles. I guess we can agree to disagree, what you see as nothing new I see as very impressive as no other passenger vehicle has put all those pieces together before. From my perspective, it seems you don't understand that just because something has been done before in one way, it doesn't mean it still doesn't have value in a new application.

Again, we're on an Apple forum of all places, this is what Apple is best at, taking existing technologies and applying new design or application of them which creates exponentially more value. All the same critiques you are saying are very similar to what Blackberry and Nokia said when the iPhone first came out, aka, its been done before, whats special about it? It doesn't even have 3g.

What's exciting about the cybertruck is not only a super expensive truck that can pull a 911 faster than a 911, or twice as efficient as GMC's electric truck, or has twice the range of Ford's electric truck, whats also exciting is that same technology its putting on the road today will allow $25k EVs and cheaper in the near future.

EVs definitely lose some range in cold temperatures, (but so do ICEs to some extent, and newer EVs again are better with this) but they work just fine and (as others pointed out) in the case of keeping the car warm much better actually. They work well enough for Norway.

Mercedes and Bimmers are nice, I'm particularly looking forward to BMW Neue Klasse and seeing what it can deliver.

 

[Audentia]

And that will be a big problem in some climates. But such cold is also a problem for ICE cars and has been overcome. This will be overcome for EV as well.

exactly

 

[Apple fanboy]

I understood, I just didn't comment on it directly because it has no relevance to the topic at hand of passenger vehicles. I guess we can agree to disagree, what you see as nothing new I see as very impressive as no other passenger vehicle has put all those pieces together before. From my perspective, it seems you don't understand that just because something has been done before in one way, it doesn't mean it still doesn't have value in a new application.

Again, we're on an Apple forum of all places, this is what Apple is best at, taking existing technologies and applying new design or application of them which creates exponentially more value. All the same critiques you are saying are very similar to what Blackberry and Nokia said when the iPhone first came out, aka, its been done before, whats special about it? It doesn't even have 3g.

What's exciting about the cybertruck is not only a super expensive truck that can pull a 911 faster than a 911, or twice as efficient as GMC's electric truck, or has twice the range of Ford's electric truck, whats also exciting is that same technology its putting on the road today will allow $25k EVs and cheaper in the near future.

EVs definitely lose some range in cold temperatures, (but so do ICEs to some extent, and newer EVs again are better with this) but they work just fine and (as others pointed out) in the case of keeping the car warm much better actually. They work well enough for Norway.

Mercedes and Bimmers are nice, I'm particularly looking forward to BMW Neue Klasse and seeing what it can deliver.

Again the range thing in cold weather is such a non issue. Very few journeys require a charging stop. What difference does it make to the majority of people if you get home with 50% or 40% charge.

 

[Audentia]

Again the range thing in cold weather is such a non issue. Very few journeys require a charging stop. What difference does it make to the majority of people if you get home with 50% or 40% charge.

for certain people and situations in rural areas (and because charging infrastructure is still limited) I can see it being a concern. However, this is the exception, not the rule as you point out, and so generally speaking it's a straw man argument, definitely agree with you there.

 

[Apple fanboy]

for certain people and situations in rural areas (and because charging infrastructure is still limited) I can see it being a concern. However, this is the exception, not the rule as you point out, and so generally speaking it's a straw man argument, definitely agree with you there.

I live in the country. But not as isolated as other parts. My commute is 35 miles there and 35 back. Going to have to lose a lot of range before I’m worrying about not getting home (even if I couldn’t charge at work and home).

 

[cyb3rdud3]

I live in the country. But not as isolated as other parts. My commute is 35 miles there and 35 back. Going to have to lose a lot of range before I’m worrying about not getting home (even if I couldn’t charge at work and home).

Let's be realistic, you may live rural but not in the country. Driving 35 miles to civilisation is nothing, although I bet you live further away from London That is just normal distance between towns.

Saying that, when you see how bad the Audi platform is in winter, the range can easily drop to just 110. So unless you charge to 100% that gets rather close for comfort. Not all EVs are that good.

 

[Audentia]

right, I think both of you make good points. One person's definition of the country and another's and their needs can be quite different. and yeah the range on that Audi is pretty bad. Generally speaking though, EVs keep improving and are solving all these problems, if one is informed and has the money, they can buy what they need.

 

[adrianlondon]

People who live in or close to central London are likely to make smaller journeys, which are perfect for an EV. However, these people rarely have off-street parking and don't commute to work by car (as they don't have parking there, either), so where can the car be left to charge?

Someone I know lives on the outskirts of London and has just bought an EV and can charge at home on his drive. Another friend wants a new car and are thinking hybrid (which I don't recommend/like) as they have nowhere to charge it at home.

Yes, London has on-street charging points but if you leave the car there longer than an hour or so, the parking charges are very high (assuming you're not towed). So I don't think large cities are prepared yet. What's needed is cabling along the road/pavement so people can park on-street and charge. However, if loads of cars charge at the same time then the cabling won't be able to handle it.

I don't know what the solution is. Which is fine, as no one will ask me for one

 

[Apple fanboy]

People who live in or close to central London are likely to make smaller journeys, which are perfect for an EV. However, these people rarely have off-street parking and don't commute to work by car (as they don't have parking there, either), so where can the car be left to charge?

Someone I know lives on the outskirts of London and has just bought an EV and can charge at home on his drive. Another friend wants a new car and are thinking hybrid (which I don't recommend/like) as they have nowhere to charge it at home.

Yes, London has on-street charging points but if you leave the car there longer than an hour or so, the parking charges are very high (assuming you're not towed). So I don't think large cities are prepared yet. What's needed is cabling along the road/pavement so people can park on-street and charge. However, if loads of cars charge at the same time then the cabling won't be able to handle it.

I don't know what the solution is. Which is fine, as no one will ask me for one

Not many people are travelling over 200 miles that regularly in the UK. Those that are are probably sales reps etc. I believe the Tesla is king for those people. The charging is quite easy to find with all EV’s but especially Tesla’s.
In London there are a lot of on street parking. Mostly in residential areas where people have parking permits, so not that big a deal. It’s generally a destination charger, where you park up over night, not rapid charging.
I agree for people like me it’s easier as I have charging at work and home. But then I used to live in London and would never buy a house without off street parking.

 

[4sallypat]

Not many people are travelling over 200 miles that regularly in the UK. Those that are are probably sales reps etc. I believe the Tesla is king for those people. The charging is quite easy to find with all EV’s but especially Tesla’s.
In London there are a lot of on street parking. Mostly in residential areas where people have parking permits, so not that big a deal. It’s generally a destination charger, where you park up over night, not rapid charging.
I agree for people like me it’s easier as I have charging at work and home. But then I used to live in London and would never buy a house without off street parking.

Does London have curb side street parking chargers ?

When I was in Paris this past summer, I saw lots of curbside L2 chargers on busy streets.

Many Parisian EV taxis were using them...