The Volvo ex30 looks like a nice car…but oh that range (or lack thereof). That’s deal breaker for me.
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Who has or is planning to get an electric car / EV Talk
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Nah, E85 is for wusses. Folks making REALLY BIG power use bunkers. The Helsinki-based global company Wärtsilä makes a huge 90ft long 44ft high 14-cylinder 2-stroke diesel that by itself weighs 2300 tons. It runs at just over 100rpm, generates almost 108,000 horsepower, an unbelievable 5.6million ft-lb of torque, consumes 1660 gallons of bunkers PER HOUR at 83% load, and each of its cylinders is the size of, say, a Volkswagen. Pistons are 20ft high, each weighing 12,000lb, are 3ft wide, and travel a bore of over 8ft. This bad boy pushes container ships though it might be an issue with your HOA if you decided to get one for your McMansion as a whole house standby generator. Pricing is specific to your installation needs. And oh yeah, this is the largest reciprocating engine in the world. Note the picture is of the smaller 12-cylinder model.
Volkswagen ID.2 has actually been delayed, it will see limited production end of 2025 with full launch in 2026. Honda E is cancelled altogether in Europe, citing disappointing sales (due to high price - low range I imagine).
Maybe Stellantis will have some commercial succes starting with the Citroën ë-C3 at €20-25k which is supposed to launch later this year. They passed 10.000 preorders early December (Europe). Renault 5 (Zoe replacement for 2024) also looks very cool at €€25K and cheaper Twingo will follow in 2026. Rise of the small EVs finally coming (to Europe)?
Maybe Stellantis will have some commercial succes starting with the Citroën ë-C3 at €20-25k which is supposed to launch later this year. They passed 10.000 preorders early December (Europe). Renault 5 (Zoe replacement for 2024) also looks very cool at €€25K and cheaper Twingo will follow in 2026. Rise of the small EVs finally coming (to Europe)?
When I drove diesel BMWs (2010-2017), prices were way LOWER in the US than gasoline.
That's the reason I drove these fancy DEF injected AdBlue diesels for those years.
Yeah I like some of what I’ve seen with the EX30, but I don’t need to be so high off the ground. It’s at least a bit closer to affordable than the EV monsters that dominate the industry here.
Oh I hadn’t heard that about the ID2. Disappointing for sure. I do need high range in a small package. Maybe I’ll have to think about a final-year manual Golf R, though with the markups and interest rates more likely I’ll keep this GTI until at least 2029. My last car was a 2001 tdi golf, drove it til it was 17 years old.
yup, in the US the choice of affordable EVs just isn't there, and the one that was (Bolt) is being discontinued.
will be interesting to see how the Chinese manufacturers will do in Europe, read somewhere that BYD is starting to make a push into that market. Would be even more interesting how they'd fare in the US, but with the current political climate I don't see them coming here for quite some time ...
Seen a couple of BYD cars driving around here in The Netherlands. BYD is even opening a factory in Hungary.
Last year Chinese EVs accounted for 7% of total EV sales in The Netherlands, 2x more than 2022. We currently have Aiways, BYD, Hongqi, JAC, Lynk & Co, MG, Nio, Xpeng and Zeekr with more coming in 2024. This small invasion is being subsidised heavily by the Chinese government, explaining in part the competitive pricing and why it is a real threat to existing car brands. Along with some political arguments that don't belong on this forum, the situation is... complicated let's say.
Needs to be specially adapted for that kind of fuel. Not practical at all for a dialy useage car. E5 is available everywhere although not all are the the same. Saying that modern engine, can easily run on either E5 or E10, mine runs perfectly smooth, just feels slightly constraints when doing so. The Golf R I had was similar, give it RON99 or above and that engine really came alive.
It's all well and good to discuss the EVs that are north of $90K, but that is a niche market.
The exciting market is the mass market. Talking about the ex30 base model is getting into affordable territory if that vehicle fits your use case. I would think most people would want the subsidies: federal tax credit, state incentives and whatever else. The ex30 does not qualify for the federal tax credit.
At least for me, if I were in the market for an affordable EV in 2024 (not a halo EV) I would look at one that at least had a federal tax credit. But that's me.
Well we don’t all get federal tax credits! But there is plenty of choice in Europe below 90k.
The more affordability there is the more adoption we will see. Win win as I see it.
I wonder why many of the European offerings don’t get offered your side of the pond.
There is yet to be an EV in the $30k range that has a useable range for most use needs.
Used there still isn’t and won’t be any time soon an EV used range that provides an option for people who can only afford a $1000-5000 car. We are a long way off from seeing those kind of used EV cars on lots. I have no idea what the % is, but it’s likely at least 50% of the world that could only afford cars in thst low price range and are still using 1980-90 Toyotas currently….
I have a Tesla model 3P. It would not be useable to me with less range. Currently Tesla is the range king other than some other niche extremely expensive options.
It’s already annoying as hell to go on road trips with and sit charging for an hour, but that’s 5 times a year. In and around town it’s great.
If you traveled 500 miles a day for work there is no EV that fulfills that role and won’t be for another 10-20 years. There is no way I’m stopping to charge for 2-3 hours every day as a heavy commuter. That would be absolutely horrible. That and using supercharging stations is not cheap and significantly wear out batteries waaay faster.
We are not ready for an EV only world. There are still trips and locations that I need my Tundra, and that’s not going to change in my lifetime.
Used there still isn’t and won’t be any time soon an EV used range that provides an option for people who can only afford a $1000-5000 car. We are a long way off from seeing those kind of used EV cars on lots. I have no idea what the % is, but it’s likely at least 50% of the world that could only afford cars in thst low price range and are still using 1980-90 Toyotas currently….
I have a Tesla model 3P. It would not be useable to me with less range. Currently Tesla is the range king other than some other niche extremely expensive options.
It’s already annoying as hell to go on road trips with and sit charging for an hour, but that’s 5 times a year. In and around town it’s great.
If you traveled 500 miles a day for work there is no EV that fulfills that role and won’t be for another 10-20 years. There is no way I’m stopping to charge for 2-3 hours every day as a heavy commuter. That would be absolutely horrible. That and using supercharging stations is not cheap and significantly wear out batteries waaay faster.
We are not ready for an EV only world. There are still trips and locations that I need my Tundra, and that’s not going to change in my lifetime.
Do you feel many travel 500 miles every day? That’s 120,000 miles a year?
Who is doing that?
Very few I think.
I believe in the US the average miles/year is < 15k miles, so, the vast majority travel far less than 50 miles/day, and I am fully aware that in CA some have150 or more per day commutes, but, those are the exception.
And, taking my Bolt EUV that has a EPA range of ~ 250 miles, that is plenty for 90+% of commuters who can charge at home ...
but, the "range anxiety" and charging time is just really not that much of an issue for the majority, just something that people need to be educated on, and most don't want to (be educated).
As for Tesla alternatives, look at Ioniq 5/6 or the other Kia offerings, charge to 80% in under 20 minutes, range similar to Tesla ... priced not that different from Tesla 3/Y
It's still a long way to go but more people could make the switch today if they really wanted to
I have a lawyer friend who is about 200 miles per day 4-5 days a week. He ain’t got time to sit for hours charging.
Truck/delivery drivers.
Tech service and repair drivers can easily do that in a day especially for rural customers.
Is it the majority driving 500 miles a day no. I’m using an extreme example to emphasize the limitation.
There are a lot of drivers who drive a LOT more than 20 a day.
Even if you commute 100 miles to work a day, in most EV (especially in that more affordable price range), you are not making it back home another 100 without charging (especially in cold months) and that’s another hour lost in the day where you already have a lot of wasted time.
Not everyone lives and works in a city of 50,000 let alone 1,000,000. We are way off having half of every parking space a charger. Even with a full EV infrastructure and place imagine the number of stalls you have to have when everybody has to sit there for a freaking hour and charge if everyone is driving an electric car. There is a very metropolis focused tunnel vision on EV capability. There is a huge portion of the population that does not live in the city.
It’s ironic to me that for some issues and topics in culture we focus on the .005% of the population for equity yet for something like travel, and the freedom of being able to travel we’re fine forcing everyone to use a product that wouldn’t be usable for 20 to 30% of the population.
I’m already preparing to be annoyed as hell when I go to supercharger stations and have to see all the other piece of crap EV’s charging there and have to wait to even connect
!I’m just emphasizing that EV is not a panacea. I own one and love them. They have their place.
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So your lawyer friend does 200 miles a day? Most EV’s will do that so his charging would be done when he is sleeping presumably?I have a lawyer friend who is about 200 miles per day 4-5 days a week. He ain’t got time to sit for hours charging.
Truck/delivery drivers.
Tech service and repair drivers can easily do that in a day especially for rural customers.
Is it the majority driving 500 miles a day no. I’m using an extreme example to emphasize the limitation.
Even if you commute 100 miles to work a day, in most EV (especially in that more affordable price range), you are not making it back home another 100 without charging (especially in cold months) and that’s another hour lost in the day where you already have a lot of wasted time.
Not everyone lives and works in a city of 50,000 let alone 1,000,000. We are way off having half of every parking space a charger. Even with a full EV infrastructure and place imagine the number of stalls you have to have when everybody has to sit there for a freaking hour and charge if everyone is driving an electric car. I’m already preparing to be annoyed as hell when I go to supercharger stations and have to see all the other piece of crap EV’s charging there and have to wait to even connect
I’m just emphasizing that EV is not a panacea. I own one and live them. They have their place.
I’m not saying it’s perfect, but the 500 miles a day sounds like a very extreme edge case. Like I’ve never heard of anyone who does that every day.
Your lawyer friend should be able to afford a Lucid Air, which should nearly meet their mileage needs.I have a lawyer friend who is about 200 miles per day 4-5 days a week. He ain’t got time to sit for hours charging.
Truck/delivery drivers.
Tech service and repair drivers can easily do that in a day especially for rural customers.
Is it the majority driving 500 miles a day no. I’m using an extreme example to emphasize the limitation.
There are a lot of drivers who drive a LOT more than 20 a day.
Even if you commute 100 miles to work a day, in most EV (especially in that more affordable price range), you are not making it back home another 100 without charging (especially in cold months) and that’s another hour lost in the day where you already have a lot of wasted time.
Not everyone lives and works in a city of 50,000 let alone 1,000,000. We are way off having half of every parking space a charger. Even with a full EV infrastructure and place imagine the number of stalls you have to have when everybody has to sit there for a freaking hour and charge if everyone is driving an electric car. There is a very metropolis focused tunnel vision on EV capability. There is a huge portion of the population that does not live in the city.
It’s ironic to me that for some issues and topics in culture we focus on the .005% of the population for equity yet for something like travel, and the freedom of being able to travel we’re fine forcing everyone to use a product that wouldn’t be usable for 20 to 30% of the population.
I’m already preparing to be annoyed as hell when I go to supercharger stations and have to see all the other piece of crap EV’s charging there and have to wait to even connect
I’m just emphasizing that EV is not a panacea. I own one and love them. They have their place.
Lol lawyers do not all make $500,000 a year and go childless!
I’ve owned a Tesla for years trust me, if your commute is 50- 100 miles one way you’re not making it home in a lot of EV, especially in the winter. If 50% of the population was driving an EV, we wouldn’t even have stations with an enough stalls to account for people sitting there for 30-50 minutes 1 time per day.
The amount of time it takes for cars to charge is also directly related to the size of the battery. Even with charging speed getting really amazing the battery packs that are in the larger EV pick ups and SUVs take a huge amount of time to charge. To fully charge the Ford lightning takes more like an hour and a half to get to 100% which you would you would need if you were traveling 100 miles especially in winter. If you were towing something….no bueno. How do I know, I drive a lightning platinum. At home you need at least a level 2 to charge the beast over night. At most public stations it takes a LONG time to charge it. Some hold for that new hummer EV that I’d love to have.
Tech is pretty good now so when I just have to stop and top it off on a trip, I can get a lot of battery life back in just 15 minutes. But that’s just for my handful of 200-300 mile trips a year. If I had to worry about topping it off every day or multiple times per day, no way man, that would be annoying as hell.
I’ve owned a Tesla for years trust me, if your commute is 50- 100 miles one way you’re not making it home in a lot of EV, especially in the winter. If 50% of the population was driving an EV, we wouldn’t even have stations with an enough stalls to account for people sitting there for 30-50 minutes 1 time per day.
The amount of time it takes for cars to charge is also directly related to the size of the battery. Even with charging speed getting really amazing the battery packs that are in the larger EV pick ups and SUVs take a huge amount of time to charge. To fully charge the Ford lightning takes more like an hour and a half to get to 100% which you would you would need if you were traveling 100 miles especially in winter. If you were towing something….no bueno. How do I know, I drive a lightning platinum. At home you need at least a level 2 to charge the beast over night. At most public stations it takes a LONG time to charge it. Some hold for that new hummer EV that I’d love to have.
Tech is pretty good now so when I just have to stop and top it off on a trip, I can get a lot of battery life back in just 15 minutes. But that’s just for my handful of 200-300 mile trips a year. If I had to worry about topping it off every day or multiple times per day, no way man, that would be annoying as hell.
I have a lawyer friend who is about 200 miles per day 4-5 days a week. He ain’t got time to sit for hours charging.
Truck/delivery drivers.
Tech service and repair drivers can easily do that in a day especially for rural customers.
Is it the majority driving 500 miles a day no. I’m using an extreme example to emphasize the limitation.
There are a lot of drivers who drive a LOT more than 20 a day.
Even if you commute 100 miles to work a day, in most EV (especially in that more affordable price range), you are not making it back home another 100 without charging (especially in cold months) and that’s another hour lost in the day where you already have a lot of wasted time.
Not everyone lives and works in a city of 50,000 let alone 1,000,000. We are way off having half of every parking space a charger. Even with a full EV infrastructure and place imagine the number of stalls you have to have when everybody has to sit there for a freaking hour and charge if everyone is driving an electric car. There is a very metropolis focused tunnel vision on EV capability. There is a huge portion of the population that does not live in the city.
It’s ironic to me that for some issues and topics in culture we focus on the .005% of the population for equity yet for something like travel, and the freedom of being able to travel we’re fine forcing everyone to use a product that wouldn’t be usable for 20 to 30% of the population.
I’m already preparing to be annoyed as hell when I go to supercharger stations and have to see all the other piece of crap EV’s charging there and have to wait to even connect
I’m just emphasizing that EV is not a panacea. I own one and love them. They have their place.
Sorry, but that is the huge annoyances in this debate.
I have yet to see someone push an EV onto someone when they have the extreme example of a use case.
Yet when someone comes in here to go, " EV's suck" all they use is the extreme cases to say why.
Yes those extreme/fringe examples of someone who drives outside of the norm or utilizes their vehicle in a certain way( towing), an EV right now is not for them.
Moving on.... For the person that says Tesla is the range king, that is the estimated EPA range king. Realistically, the competition is up there with what you can realistically can expect to get out of your Tesla. Out of spec reviews just did a Cybertruck range test with a truck configured and rated at 320 miles. It managed 254 miles right in line with the competition's actual range in tests. Granted colder temps so in the spring/summer, that figure will be higher. But, it won't be close to the EPA rated range.
I say that as a person that loves his Model 3 and would presently still buy another Tesla given today's offerings and status of the competition. By status, I mean companies like Rivian and Lucid do not have products in my price range nor the support network to service the vehicle yet. GM and Ford still need massive work to debug their EV's. Hyundai's products just don't appeal to me.
The EX30 starts at $34K, which is about the price of a Honda Accord. Of course it does not qualify for the Federal tax credit. I take affordable to mean 40K and under. That's my line in the sand.
The Model Y qualifies for the tax credit and brings the price down to the $30K range. The list of vehicles that qualify for the federal tax credit that can be had after all rebates in the $30K range is rather slim.
If it takes a federal tax credit to subsidize a car to be in an affordable range it’s not affordable. At least 50% of the population can’t afford a $30,000 new car, and I bet it’s higher than that.
Fine, change my example to 200 or 300 miles a day. Does that get a daily range into a % of the population of use that you believe now matters. Those people that drive more just have to spend 10 hours a week at charging stations is fine because it’s only 1% of drivers right? What about the farmer or rancher that lives 300 miles from civilization. That’s just tough crap for them right.
There are weeks where my coworkers travel 200-300 miles a day 3 times per week. They use the company hybrid not the company electric vehicle for a reason. We have EV and Hybrid fleet vehicles to look good, not because people want to use them. There is a good % of the population who travel those kind of miles in a work week and an EV is not going to work for them no matter how you slice it.
They work great for a lot of people. Me included. They don’t work just fine for everyone and it’s not an insignificant amount of people. I’ll leave it at that.
I don’t want to discourage people in getting an EV just understand the limitations. MY M3P is super fast and fun, and it’s nice to not have the gas, oil, fluid, brake, maintenance every year.
Fine, change my example to 200 or 300 miles a day. Does that get a daily range into a % of the population of use that you believe now matters. Those people that drive more just have to spend 10 hours a week at charging stations is fine because it’s only 1% of drivers right? What about the farmer or rancher that lives 300 miles from civilization. That’s just tough crap for them right.
There are weeks where my coworkers travel 200-300 miles a day 3 times per week. They use the company hybrid not the company electric vehicle for a reason. We have EV and Hybrid fleet vehicles to look good, not because people want to use them. There is a good % of the population who travel those kind of miles in a work week and an EV is not going to work for them no matter how you slice it.
They work great for a lot of people. Me included. They don’t work just fine for everyone and it’s not an insignificant amount of people. I’ll leave it at that.
I don’t want to discourage people in getting an EV just understand the limitations. MY M3P is super fast and fun, and it’s nice to not have the gas, oil, fluid, brake, maintenance every year.
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