Who has or is planning to get an electric car / EV Talk

[profcutter]

It's all well and good to discuss the EVs that are north of $90K, but that is a niche market.

The exciting market is the mass market. Talking about the ex30 base model is getting into affordable territory if that vehicle fits your use case. I would think most people would want the subsidies: federal tax credit, state incentives and whatever else. The ex30 does not qualify for the federal tax credit.

At least for me, if I were in the market for an affordable EV in 2024 (not a halo EV) I would look at one that at least had a federal tax credit. But that's me.

Yeah, that’s why the ID.2 seemed like a good option, but now it’s delayed, and probably won’t come to the US. I drive 200 miles each way to work, which I know is an outlier in terms of US drivers. But it makes the range issue real for me. My wife has a much shorter commute, but we use her car to do long road trips with the family, and then the range issue comes back. That with a couple of professor’s salaries (hah, professors used to get paid a good chunk of change, no more!) we have to stick with our current ICE vehicles. I wish we public transit, especially for my commute but 🤷‍♀️

 

[The-Real-Deal82]

I don’t think people realize the prices of cars these days. I just looked at the Honda website, the civic starts at $24k USD. A RWD TM3 is in the $30k range. Yes, it doesn’t have the mileage per “tank” of a Civic, but the price gap isn’t as big as people make it seem.

It might be different in America but in Europe that £/€24k Civic is £/€12-13k in 3 years but that Tesla is still £/€25-32k within the same timeframe. The Civic becomes affordable to the lower earners faster. A major reason EV’s are facing opposition from what I am seeing is the perception they are unaffordable. If you want a decent size vehicle with decent range, they are currently unaffordable to minimum earners even if those of us here with good salaries struggle to relate to that.

@Apple fanboy illustrated this perfectly with his post showing the affordable options as of now are either super mini’s with dire range or risky purchases like 10+ year old Tesla’s. I appreciate more options are becoming available all the time, but it’s not changing opinions now unfortunately.

 

[JT2002TJ]

It might be different in America but in Europe that £/€24k Civic is £/€12-13k in 3 years but that Tesla is still £/€25-32k within the same timeframe. The Civic becomes affordable to the lower earners faster. A major reason EV’s are facing opposition from what I am seeing is the perception they are unaffordable. If you want a decent size vehicle with decent range, they are currently unaffordable to minimum earners even if those of us here with good salaries struggle to relate to that.

You are saying in the UK the Civic is £12k vs Tesla being £25k, that's about a £350 monthly difference in cost over a 36-month period.

We haven't accounted for savings on fuel/maintenance costs. I know 1L of gas is WAY more than 1L of gas here in the US. I drive an average of about 13k miles per year (or about 21k km). I used to spend $70 per tank 5x per month, or around $350 for fuel. I also used to fill my wife's care 2x per month ($140) Right now, my electricity prices went up about $180 per month (for 2 EVs). So, I was spending almost $500 per month in fuel, and am down to $180 per month in "efuel". That's a monthly savings of $310, but that's for a 2-car household.

For a one car household driving about as much as I do alone, I would say there is a minimum monthly fuel savings of $200-$250. That annual average miles would need a minimum of 4 dyno oil changes.

So, in the end, I'm assuming (without knowing your exact fuel prices) the honest monthly cost (note + fuel + maintenance) is probably within £50-£100 for the Civic vs Tesla. This easily accounts for the added initial cost (monthly payments) going from a bottom of the line Civic to the bottom of the line Tesla, which I 100% believe is a HUGH step in interior class...

Here in the US, the price difference between that bottom of the line Civic and the bottom of the line Tesla doesn't really exist. The fuel + maintenance costs puts them about equal. Regardless of size, I would say a Tesla M3 is more on par with the Accord, which are initially priced the same making the Tesla a monthly total cost savings.

I think the issue is ALL cars are becoming unaffordable to lower earners, it's not an ICE vs EV thing. Here in the US, the term of auto loans has gone from a typical 3 year to now 6-year loans. This is the only way people are about to purchase vehicles, or they lease.


I know I'm not including the cost of a wall connecter and install, but I'm going to assume everyone is going to have to pay this at some point, if everyone will eventually have to switch to EVs.

EDIT:

@Apple fanboy illustrated this perfectly with his post showing the affordable options as of now are either super mini’s with dire range or risky purchases like 10+ year old Tesla’s. I appreciate more options are becoming available all the time, but it’s not changing opinions now unfortunately.

That's a 10-year-old Model S... You can buy a 3–4-year-old Model 3 for less than a 10-year-old Model S.

 

[cyb3rdud3]

You are saying in the UK the Civic is £12k vs Tesla being £25k, that's about a £350 monthly difference in cost over a 36-month period.

We haven't accounted for savings on fuel/maintenance costs. I know 1L of gas is WAY more than 1L of gas here in the US. I drive an average of about 13k miles per year (or about 21k km). I used to spend $70 per tank 5x per month, or around $350 for fuel. I also used to fill my wife's care 2x per month ($140) Right now, my electricity prices went up about $180 per month (for 2 EVs). So, I was spending almost $500 per month in fuel, and am down to $180 per month in "efuel". That's a monthly savings of $310, but that's for a 2-car household.

For a one car household driving about as much as I do alone, I would say there is a minimum monthly fuel savings of $200-$250. That annual average miles would need a minimum of 4 dyno oil changes.

So, in the end, I'm assuming (without knowing your exact fuel prices) the honest monthly cost (note + fuel + maintenance) is probably within £50-£100 for the Civic vs Tesla. This easily accounts for the added initial cost (monthly payments) going from a bottom of the line Civic to the bottom of the line Tesla, which I 100% believe is a HUGH step in interior class...

Here in the US, the price difference between that bottom of the line Civic and the bottom of the line Tesla doesn't really exist. The fuel + maintenance costs puts them about equal. Regardless of size, I would say a Tesla M3 is more on par with the Accord, which are initially priced the same making the Tesla a monthly total cost savings.

I think the issue is ALL cars are becoming unaffordable to lower earners, it's not an ICE vs EV thing. Here in the US, the term of auto loans has gone from a typical 3 year to now 6-year loans. This is the only way people are about to purchase vehicles, or they lease.


I know I'm not including the cost of a wall connecter and install, but I'm going to assume everyone is going to have to pay this at some point, if everyone will eventually have to switch to EVs.

EDIT:


That's a 10-year-old Model S... You can buy a 3–4-year-old Model 3 for less than a 10-year-old Model S.

I think that is fair. But then again, I just can't imagine someone cross shopping a Civic with a TM3. Just a very different car, with an entirely different power output and experience. I'd image something like an MG4 is a bit more comparable and about 10K less than a TM3. Doesn't come close in power and experience either, and has a suitably Civic like bland interior.

But yes agree that all cars are getting more expensive, but the reality is that not many people, definitely lower earners, would buy (or lease, or contract hire) a brand-new car anyway. In the UK, the next financial scandal is waiting to happen in my opinion, where people are enticed to get new cars by giving up part of their income before tax for monthly payments for a new car. This makes cars attainable that just wouldn't be with the income some people have. It is a silly game to get a new car in my opinion as what it does is reduce you salary and the impact of that is far reaching from mortgage affordability for a home, to the amount of pension contributions one can make, but even in the unfortunate event where someone needs state support where it actually has reduced their last earned income. But people are lapping it up, I find it odd. I don't like to buy stuff that I can't afford, only loans I do is for real-estate with straight forward repayment mortgages.

 

[Apple fanboy]

You are saying in the UK the Civic is £12k vs Tesla being £25k, that's about a £350 monthly difference in cost over a 36-month period.

We haven't accounted for savings on fuel/maintenance costs. I know 1L of gas is WAY more than 1L of gas here in the US. I drive an average of about 13k miles per year (or about 21k km). I used to spend $70 per tank 5x per month, or around $350 for fuel. I also used to fill my wife's care 2x per month ($140) Right now, my electricity prices went up about $180 per month (for 2 EVs). So, I was spending almost $500 per month in fuel, and am down to $180 per month in "efuel". That's a monthly savings of $310, but that's for a 2-car household.

For a one car household driving about as much as I do alone, I would say there is a minimum monthly fuel savings of $200-$250. That annual average miles would need a minimum of 4 dyno oil changes.

So, in the end, I'm assuming (without knowing your exact fuel prices) the honest monthly cost (note + fuel + maintenance) is probably within £50-£100 for the Civic vs Tesla. This easily accounts for the added initial cost (monthly payments) going from a bottom of the line Civic to the bottom of the line Tesla, which I 100% believe is a HUGH step in interior class...

Here in the US, the price difference between that bottom of the line Civic and the bottom of the line Tesla doesn't really exist. The fuel + maintenance costs puts them about equal. Regardless of size, I would say a Tesla M3 is more on par with the Accord, which are initially priced the same making the Tesla a monthly total cost savings.

I think the issue is ALL cars are becoming unaffordable to lower earners, it's not an ICE vs EV thing. Here in the US, the term of auto loans has gone from a typical 3 year to now 6-year loans. This is the only way people are about to purchase vehicles, or they lease.


I know I'm not including the cost of a wall connecter and install, but I'm going to assume everyone is going to have to pay this at some point, if everyone will eventually have to switch to EVs.

EDIT:


That's a 10-year-old Model S... You can buy a 3–4-year-old Model 3 for less than a 10-year-old Model S.

It was the cheapest Tesla on Autotrader. I didn’t specify a model.
Your post makes some excellent points. The cost of ownership of any vehicle is going up, and not by a small amount.
However when you factor in the fuel and servicing costs, then that also makes things a lot closer.
Leasing is becoming a lot more common and I think it’s easy to see why. Of course running an older ICE is cheaper (especially if you do your own maintenance), but is a ticking time bomb for the next major failure (clutch, gearbox, fuel pump etc). Plus the inconvenience of having an unreliable car.
Personally I always buy my cars with cash. Is that the cheapest way? Not sure but it gives me peace of mind.

 

[The-Real-Deal82]

You are saying in the UK the Civic is £12k vs Tesla being £25k, that's about a £350 monthly difference in cost over a 36-month period.

We haven't accounted for savings on fuel/maintenance costs. I know 1L of gas is WAY more than 1L of gas here in the US. I drive an average of about 13k miles per year (or about 21k km). I used to spend $70 per tank 5x per month, or around $350 for fuel. I also used to fill my wife's care 2x per month ($140) Right now, my electricity prices went up about $180 per month (for 2 EVs). So, I was spending almost $500 per month in fuel, and am down to $180 per month in "efuel". That's a monthly savings of $310, but that's for a 2-car household.

For a one car household driving about as much as I do alone, I would say there is a minimum monthly fuel savings of $200-$250. That annual average miles would need a minimum of 4 dyno oil changes.

So, in the end, I'm assuming (without knowing your exact fuel prices) the honest monthly cost (note + fuel + maintenance) is probably within £50-£100 for the Civic vs Tesla. This easily accounts for the added initial cost (monthly payments) going from a bottom of the line Civic to the bottom of the line Tesla, which I 100% believe is a HUGH step in interior class...

Here in the US, the price difference between that bottom of the line Civic and the bottom of the line Tesla doesn't really exist. The fuel + maintenance costs puts them about equal. Regardless of size, I would say a Tesla M3 is more on par with the Accord, which are initially priced the same making the Tesla a monthly total cost savings.

I think the issue is ALL cars are becoming unaffordable to lower earners, it's not an ICE vs EV thing. Here in the US, the term of auto loans has gone from a typical 3 year to now 6-year loans. This is the only way people are about to purchase vehicles, or they lease.


I know I'm not including the cost of a wall connecter and install, but I'm going to assume everyone is going to have to pay this at some point, if everyone will eventually have to switch to EVs.

EDIT:


That's a 10-year-old Model S... You can buy a 3–4-year-old Model 3 for less than a 10-year-old Model S.

There is no doubt an EV is much cheaper to run with home charging, I wasn’t suggesting otherwise. With an ICE vehicle it’s 8-9 times more expensive but my point is about the lower earners, people who won’t pay an additional £10k-£20k more for a car because it returns a cheaper to run cost over its lifespan. It’s all about paying as you go and living paycheque to paycheque for a lot of people. Those sorts of people buy cheap cars and worry about the running costs thereafter, or at least those that I know. For me with my position, I will almost definitely replace my ICE car with an EV in the next 5 or so years. It would be ideal and for the twice a month I travel beyond 300 miles for work, i’ll hire a car.

The cheapest Model 3 on Autotrader UK now is this:

It’s done 84k miles, standard range for reference.

 

[JT2002TJ]

Yeah, it is hard to compare US new/used market for Teslas, because they are considerably cheaper here.

When I was looking for a car to replace my e46 325i back in January last year, here in the US, the prices of cars were so high, it was cheaper to get the TM3 vs all the other. I also only buy used; the used market was so high that I saved money buying a Tesla.

It is going to take a few more years for the used market to get flooded with EVs. Here in the US, the market is getting big because of leasing. With the high percentage of leases, these vehicles are now hitting the market. To add to that, the average Telsa buyer is selling their first Tesla in order to get their second/third.

It's such a big deal that Tesla has changed their policy for leases, preventing customer lease buyouts. I get why they did it, if they want to control the market, you can't have a huge wave of lease buyouts since they would dictate the used Tesla market. They also do a good job of trade-in value of used Tesla, if you get the most directly from Tesla, it also helps them control the used market since Tesla will have most of the market.

They throw in incentives by offering existing customers the option of transferring lifetime supercharging, FSD. These deals create incentive for existing customers to upgrade to a newer vehicle, also giving Tesla access to used inventory.

 

[4sallypat]

Yea, except, for 2024 there is no such “affordable” EV offered in the US

Leftover 2023 Chevy Bolt EV and EUV ?

 

[4sallypat]

Yeah, it is hard to compare US new/used market for Teslas, because they are considerably cheaper here.

When I was looking for a car to replace my e46 325i back in January last year, here in the US, the prices of cars were so high, it was cheaper to get the TM3 vs all the other. I also only buy used; the used market was so high that I saved money buying a Tesla.

It is going to take a few more years for the used market to get flooded with EVs. Here in the US, the market is getting big because of leasing. With the high percentage of leases, these vehicles are now hitting the market. To add to that, the average Telsa buyer is selling their first Tesla in order to get their second/third.

It's such a big deal that Tesla has changed their policy for leases, preventing customer lease buyouts. I get why they did it, if they want to control the market, you can't have a huge wave of lease buyouts since they would dictate the used Tesla market. They also do a good job of trade-in value of used Tesla, if you get the most directly from Tesla, it also helps them control the used market since Tesla will have most of the market.

They throw in incentives by offering existing customers the option of transferring lifetime supercharging, FSD. These deals create incentive for existing customers to upgrade to a newer vehicle, also giving Tesla access to used inventory.

Funny, I was a BMW SAV enthusiast for over 25 years.

My first SAV: E53 (1st gen) at $45K was pricey in 1999 but drove like a Land Rover - very much an off road design.

Second SAV: E70 diesel (2nd gen) and drove like a tank - very stable and performed well on/off road. Love the excellent mileage efficiency and torque.

Current SAV: G05 (4th gen) at nearly double the price and drives like a Lexus.

I won't get a current or 3rd gen as they have become soft and cushy...

 

[jz0309]

Leftover 2023 Chevy Bolt EV and EUV ?

yea, but they'll be gone rather quick ... a base Bolt runs ~ 27k so that puts is below 20k before tax/registration etc and before any state/county credits, pretty good and affordable, won't see anything like that this year and my guess is for a couple years at least

 

[Michael Scrip]

Question for those in the US: Will range anxiety be reduced when EVs start using the NACS connector?

There are tons of Tesla charging stations around... and I'm guessing charging will be faster and more reliable.

I watch a lot of EV car reviews on Youtube and I think you'd be crazy to buy an EV before carmakers start using NACS.

It would be like buying a bunch of Lightning accessories for your iPhone knowing USB-C is coming.

 

[jz0309]

Question for those in the US: Will range anxiety be reduced when EVs start using the NACS connector?

There are tons of Tesla charging stations around... and I'm guessing charging will be faster and more reliable.

I watch a lot of EV car reviews on Youtube and I think you'd be crazy to buy an EV before carmakers start using NACS.

It would be like buying a bunch of Lightning accessories for your iPhone knowing USB-C is coming.

I have a Bolt EUV with CCS and I do not have range anxiety period.
taking longer trips (beyond the 250 mile range of my EUV) take some planning but there are good apps out there (eg ABRP a better route planner, Plugshare ...) that help you with that. here is the charging "landscape" in the US:
9029 CCS Public Charging sites with 17,888 ports in North America
2338 Tesla charging sites with 25,781 ports.
So in your book I'm crazy, that's totally fine, I am totally enjoying my EV ride.

 

[Apple fanboy]

Question for those in the US: Will range anxiety be reduced when EVs start using the NACS connector?

There are tons of Tesla charging stations around... and I'm guessing charging will be faster and more reliable.

I watch a lot of EV car reviews on Youtube and I think you'd be crazy to buy an EV before carmakers start using NACS.

It would be like buying a bunch of Lightning accessories for your iPhone knowing USB-C is coming.

Not in the US, but we have mostly CCS connections in Europe. Just having one type of charger has made it easier here. There are still a few legacy chadimo (early Nissan) chargers left.
That said not all Tesla superchargers are available to non Tesla drivers here. No idea what it’s like over there.
But I think range anxiety is really what puts people off in the first place.
Once you have bought one you just plan ahead and don’t worry about it.

Of course I’m talking about less than 5% of journeys. The other 95% you just charge overnight (or in my case when I’m in the office) once or twice a week and don’t even think about it most of the time.

 

[Michael Scrip]

I have a Bolt EUV with CCS and I do not have range anxiety period.
taking longer trips (beyond the 250 mile range of my EUV) take some planning but there are good apps out there (eg ABRP a better route planner, Plugshare ...) that help you with that. here is the charging "landscape" in the US:
9029 CCS Public Charging sites with 17,888 ports in North America
2338 Tesla charging sites with 25,781 ports.
So in your book I'm crazy, that's totally fine, I am totally enjoying my EV ride.

I didn't mean to call you crazy.

I was just saying those who are looking to buy a new EV might consider that in another year or two the charging situation will be different.

Whenever a reviewer is talking about a new EV... they now make a point to say that NACS is coming soon.

I'm relieved to hear that you don't have range anxiety. Yes you have to do a little more planning than you do with gas cars... but it doesn't sound like a complete dealbreaker.

Thank you!

 

[JT2002TJ]

Question for those in the US: Will range anxiety be reduced when EVs start using the NACS connector?

There are tons of Tesla charging stations around... and I'm guessing charging will be faster and more reliable.

I watch a lot of EV car reviews on Youtube and I think you'd be crazy to buy an EV before carmakers start using NACS.

It would be like buying a bunch of Lightning accessories for your iPhone knowing USB-C is coming.

For those car manufactures that will be going NACS and are CCS right now, they have mentioned that they will be provided with an adapter. So, I wouldn't wait until the switch, as long as the manufacture said they 1) are planning on switching and 2) it will work with an adapter.

I have a J1772 (L2) adapter in both my TM3/Y and a CCS to NACS adapter in my TMY (so 2 adapters in the Y and 1 in the 3). No issue with having adapters in the car, they are small enough. The only one I regularly use is the J1772 whenever I find free charging at a store.

 

[jz0309]

I didn't mean to call you crazy.

I was just saying those who are looking to buy a new EV might consider that in another year or two the charging situation will be different.

Whenever a reviewer is talking about a new EV... they now make a point to say that NACS is coming soon.

I'm relieved to hear that you don't have range anxiety. Yes you have to do a little more planning than you do with gas cars... but it doesn't sound like a complete dealbreaker.

Thank you!

I've been called worse

yes, most (if not all) will be switching over to NACS, but there will be adapters available as mentioned by @JT2002TJ.
and in a year or 2 the charging network will be quite larger, regardless.
Individual driving needs obviously vary, I have a L2 (240V) charger in my garage and have my car plugged in at all times when parked in the garage (keeps the 12V battery in a health sate besides charging the car), and I only charge to ~85% as that is ~ 200 miles range in the winter and that is far more than my daily need. When I plan a longer rip, I'll charge to 100% the night before ...

For those living in a home, most have a L2 charger like myself and it's a no-brainer. For those living in apartment/condo, that requires a bit more as some don't even have electrical outlets, changes for those folks need to happen still.

 

[Shark5150]

I have a Bolt EUV with CCS and I do not have range anxiety period.
taking longer trips (beyond the 250 mile range of my EUV) take some planning but there are good apps out there (eg ABRP a better route planner, Plugshare ...) that help you with that. here is the charging "landscape" in the US:
9029 CCS Public Charging sites with 17,888 ports in North America
2338 Tesla charging sites with 25,781 ports.
So in your book I'm crazy, that's totally fine, I am totally enjoying my EV ride.

Right there with ya. I have a '23 ioniq5 Limited and get an average of 250-250 miles on a full charge. We typically charge 4 to 5 days a week to 80%. No range anxiety here.

 

[4sallypat]

Question for those in the US: Will range anxiety be reduced when EVs start using the NACS connector?

There are tons of Tesla charging stations around... and I'm guessing charging will be faster and more reliable.

I watch a lot of EV car reviews on Youtube and I think you'd be crazy to buy an EV before carmakers start using NACS.

It would be like buying a bunch of Lightning accessories for your iPhone knowing USB-C is coming.

Not where I live.
All the Tesla SC locations are packed all the time.

Even if Tesla opens up charging for non Teslas next month, the wait will be worse than where I charge (EV Go, EA, Shell ReCharge)...

 

[halledise]

officially named - EV Range Anxiety …
Range Anxiety

 

[diamond.g]

I've never heard of anyone with a Lucid Air having range anxiety. 🤷🏽‍♂️

 

[Michael Scrip]

Not where I live. All the Tesla SC locations are packed all the time.

Even if Tesla opens up charging for non Teslas next month, the wait will be worse than where I charge (EV Go, EA, Shell ReCharge)...

Interesting. Thanks!

What are Tesla's plans to allow non-Teslas to use their Supercharger network?

You're right... there are much fewer non-Tesla Superchargers right now!

 

[jz0309]

Interesting. Thanks!

What are Tesla's plans to allow non-Teslas to use their Supercharger network?

You're right... there are much fewer non-Tesla Superchargers right now!

View attachment 2334704

View attachment 2334705

Don’t know where you got that map from, but below is Electrify America, all “superchargers”, technically DCFC or DC Fast Charging, and there are likely more from other providers.
Not arguing that there are more Tesla superchargers compared to DCFC at the moment, but the information provided in your first pic of the map is wrong, or limited, and that is part of the problem of "range anxiety"

Edit: and your Tesla map looks like it includes "destination chargers" which are 240V chargers, not superchargers

 

[Michael Scrip]

Don’t know where you got that map from, but below is Electrify America, all “superchargers”, technically DCFC or DC Fast Charging, and there are likely more from other providers.

Not arguing that there are more Tesla superchargers compared to DCFC at the moment, but the information provided in your first pic of the map is wrong, or limited, and that is part of the problem of "range anxiety"

View attachment 2334736

The maps I showed were from Tesla's own website!

The top picture shows all the Tesla Superchargers that allow non-Tesla charging at the moment.

The bottom picture shows all Tesla Superchargers in general.

So I was asking what are Tesla's plans for opening up all those Superchargers to non-Teslas?

If they flip a switch and allow everyone to charge at all those Superchargers... that will be a lot of addition charging places!

 

[jz0309]

The maps I showed were from Tesla's own website!

The top picture shows all the Tesla Superchargers that allow non-Tesla charging at the moment.

The bottom picture shows all Tesla Superchargers in general.

So I was asking what are Tesla's plans for opening up all those Superchargers to non-Teslas?

If they flip a switch and allow everyone to charge at all those Superchargers... that will be a lot of addition charging places!

ok, thanks for clarifying.
I've heard for quite a while now that Tesla will be "opening up" but have yet to see details.
And I think there is some rumbling within the Tesla community about this ...

 

[Michael Scrip]

See if this helps...

This first map is from Tesla's website showing only the Tesla Superchargers that allow non-Telsa charging at the moment:

And this maps shows all Tesla Superchargers:

So my thought was... if all those Superchargers are opened to all EVs... that will surely help the charging situation. It can't hurt, right?