Just want to point out that the AP stack has largely been untouched since V12/13.
Got a tip for us?
Let us know
Become a MacRumors Supporter for $50/year with no ads, ability to filter front page stories, and private forums.
Who has or is planning to get an electric car / EV Talk
- Thread starter PracticalMac
- Start date
- Sort by reaction score
What do you mean? I don’t understand how all that works so can you explain it in simple terms? I know FSD is currently on version 13 for newer cars. I’m guessing that’s not what you were referring to though.
Makes sense.
I noticed when I had the two FSD trials, a lot of the behaviors I noticed with AP was fixed when using FSD. Most common being in the righter most lane on a highway. AP would get confused and swerve as the paint disappeared for the beginning of the exit lane and it lost where the lane was. FSD fixed that issue.
FSD has its own issues, but obviously none of these fixes migrated down to AP.
Tesla Vision was horrible when it came out in 2021. But it has gotten better.
See above, more or less. Using AP (two blue lines) doesn't use the NN for much of anything so basically still using the v11 stack. That is why it hasn't improved even though FSD has.
incrementally faster is probably not compelling enough to outweigh the benefits of an established standard. Especially when it's often not the charger that limits the speed but the car's ability to accept the charge or the overall available current of the facility.
I think you would need to get to something like twice the speed to make a change of standards enticing enough. Or something entirely different like inductive charging or practical battery swaps could come in and become a surprise winner.
No NACS tops out at 400, CCS2 500
Typically, one of 3, 7, 11 or 22 at the moment. CCS2 could support up to 44.
I doubt they could achieve that supply using a nacs with ac considering it is limited to single phase.
The champ as far as I remember was an older version of the Renault ZOE that did 43 kW on AC. But newer models only go to 22 kW.
They probably decided that it wasn't worth the extra cost as most public AC chargers tend to be 32A and therefore 22kW and there is always DC charging.
But the most common is also 11 kW like Tesla. Sometimes I charge at work, it would be nice if Tesla supported 22kW. Also great for restaurants or shopping centres, on AC, you would get a lot of energy for 1 or 2 hours.
I didn't think CCS 1 or 2 carried AC, it falls back on J1172/Mennekes (I dunno ya'lls alphanum designation for that plug)
I have no idea about CCS1 we don't get that here. CCS2 definitely does both single and three phase AC. Typically they go from 1x16A to 3x125A. Our home in the UK has a 1x32A, the house being renovated in the NL has 3x80A but I'm in negotiations to get it up to 3x125A. 😎💪
That is interesting, so a single cable (the part that plugs into your EV) gives you both DC and AC charging, I thought the cables that have DC charging don't have the pins for AC charging (that is how the US CCS 1 works the AC pins are missing).
I think you are confusing the max of cabinets with the plug. The current V3/V4 superchargers are limited to 250 kW/350 kW. But, NACS can do 500 Amp on the latest spec’ed V4 DC chargers for vehicles and 1MW for Semis. According to Tesla.
Tesla's Fourth-Generation Supercharger Cabinet Launches Next Year
The V4 charging cabinet will improve the Cybertruck's charging speeds by up to 30 percent, though speeds for the Model 3, Y, S, and X won't change.
Nice. To me 19 kW+ AC charging is pointless. Even with 3-phase, you would be using all the juice to your house. It does get to a point where capable and useful are not the same. For most homes, even 11 kW is in excess of the realistic usefulness. I am <10 kW at my house, I installed a 11 kW setup at my mother-in-laws house, but I use too many electrical components to exceed 11 kW on my 250 Amp service.
They did. Gen 1 Tesla Wall Connectors on a 100 Amp circuit were capable of 80 amp charging producing 19kW AC charging. The newer Wall Connectors max out at 48 amps (60 amp breaker), since a decision was made to reduce the onboard chargers to 11 kW. Tesla’s RWD model’s on board chargers max out at 7 kW.
Last edited:
Cable is the wire that runs from the cabinet to the plug. Plug is the CCS1/CCS2/NACS/J3400 part that you hold onto.
Their plug uses different pins for AC vs DC charging, NACS/J3400 uses the same pins for AC or DC charging. This is why the NACS/J3400 plug is smaller. With CCS2, just like with CCS1 the plug goes around the top AC part (J1772 in the US or Type 2 in this image) to help align the plug, but doesn’t use the AC part of the pins, just the communication pins (smaller 2 pins in the top part CCS1/CCS2).
With CCS1/2 AC charging, it uses a plug that doesn’t go around the CCS part, but technically it could, without the pins. But since a lot of manufacturers put a flap over the DC pins, it’s just easier to have a smaller AC plug that avoids the DC part.
To me, NACS/J3400 is much more elegant, as it is a smaller plug for both AC/DC charging, and according to Tesla is capable of the same charging speeds AC (within a usable limit) and DC (with the right cabinets).
It does; but in reality there is no supply that provides both AC for the onboard charger, and DC to the batteries. It is either one or the other. Thus the AC cables use the AC pins and the DC cables use the DC pins, and the control pins. In practice one cable, but they are slightly different. Mostly transparent to the user though.
Nope, I'm talking about the standard. NACS standard does not allow for 500kW charging, it tops at around 400kW. But yes I would trust Tesla's ceo to say it straight and truthyI think you are confusing the max of cabinets with the plug. The current V3/V4 superchargers are limited to 250 kW/350 kW. But, NACS can do 500 Amp on the latest spec’ed V4 DC chargers for vehicles and 1MW for Semis. According to Tesla.
Tesla's Fourth-Generation Supercharger Cabinet Launches Next Year
The V4 charging cabinet will improve the Cybertruck's charging speeds by up to 30 percent, though speeds for the Model 3, Y, S, and X won't change.www.caranddriver.com
Just because you don't use doesn't make it pointless, and doesn't make it a standard difference. Houses are built differently here, 3 phase is much more common in the rest of the world. And then there is a split architecture that you build in. I mean our household has 1 EV at the moment, and a plug in hybrid, and 3 other cars. When you want to charge multiple cars at the same time, this becomes more and more relevant. And that is the way the world is going. So if the standard doesn't support it, it means people need to hack it to get around it.
Also superhandy when you want a quick top up during the day, or have friends over who want to drive back and not wait all night.
Damn, that is a lot for a single device on a single phase in someone's home. Plenty of cars that have 22kW onboard chargers without such needs, but fair enough, they only get that with a three-phase supply.
Yeah I don't understand why we don't use 3 phase in residential here. It is definitely used for power transport and commercially.It does; but in reality there is no supply that provides both AC for the onboard charger, and DC to the batteries. It is either one or the other. Thus the AC cables use the AC pins and the DC cables use the DC pins, and the control pins. In practice one cable, but they are slightly different. Mostly transparent to the user though.
Nope, I'm talking about the standard. NACS standard does not allow for 500kW charging, it tops at around 400kW. But yes I would trust Tesla's ceo to say it straight and truthy
Just because you don't use doesn't make it pointless, and doesn't make it a standard difference. Houses are built differently here, 3 phase is much more common in the rest of the world. And then there is a split architecture that you build in. I mean our household has 1 EV at the moment, and a plug in hybrid, and 3 other cars. When you want to charge multiple cars at the same time, this becomes more and more relevant. And that is the way the world is going. So if the standard doesn't support it, it means people need to hack it to get around it.
Also superhandy when you want a quick top up during the day, or have friends over who want to drive back and not wait all night.
Damn, that is a lot for a single device on a single phase in someone's home. Plenty of cars that have 22kW onboard chargers without such needs, but fair enough, they only get that with a three-phase supply.
Nope, I'm talking about the standard. NACS standard does not allow for 500kW charging, it tops at around 400kW. But yes I would trust Tesla's ceo to say it straight and truthy
Do you have any documentation to support this, I would love to see it. SAE’s site even indicates that it is capable of 900 kW with cable side cooling and 1MW with vehicle and cable side cooling. But if there is some other documentation, I would like to see it. This is not a Tesla CEO thing, not sure why that was brought up, we are discussing an SAE standard.
Tesla Semis do exist and are in use today and are charged with V4 cabinets. As far as I know they are using 1MW level charging.
A quick note, I didn’t grow up in the US, I grew up in SE Asia.
I am a 100% EV household, I get the desire for higher AC charging. Is it common in Europe/UK for EV households to have 22kW AC charging? Is it common for houses to be wired such that the panels can support this? What Amps are must European household panels (understanding that they are 3-phase)?
The point I was making was if most households are not capable of managing that level of AC charging, it would make sense for a vehicle manufacturer to remove that capability, from a cost perspective.
In the US, especially in the south, and middle, newer constructions have central AC (often multiple) with electric heat (most don’t have heat pumps), so by the time you add an electric fireplace (some have multiple), dryer, and stove you are rapidly getting to the max of our common 200 Amp panels, so you often can only get away with 60 amp, and if lucky 100 amp for EV charging.
But I have also read on SAE’s site that J3400 is capable of 40kW+ AC charging.
I think it's a good thing that EVs are getting cheaper.
If I was in the market for an EV, I would consider a Tesla with the exception of the Cyber Truck. They seem to have a large charging network.
Other manufacturers do have access to the SuC network: Ford, GM, Rivian, Hyundai, Kia, Genesis and I might forget one, adapter is required though.
I guess it depends on the country.
Here it's certainly not common to have 22 kW (or kVA) and even if you have 3 phase supply very few have 3 phase outlets. I know some that do but that's because they have some tools (3 phase induction machines work a lot better than single phase).
Someone with a largish single home could typically have 10,35 or 13,8 kVA (15 or 20 A in 3 phase).
The most you can have single fase is 10,35 kVA (45A single). After that 3 phase until 41,4 kVA (60A 3p). Of course there's more but that's for normal low voltage. 22kW would be 32A (line current as common for 3 phase and of course around 400V as compound voltage).
I live in an apartment and have 6,9 kVA (30A single). I have gas for cooking and also a gas water boiler so even 6,9 is perhaps more than I need even with the EV.
Homes are becoming increasingly more electricity based so this should be going up slightly every year.
The main advantage would be public chargers (those usually called destination chargers).
Calling those chargers is a bit fancy because they are just basically a 3 phase outlet and quite cheap.
And 22 kW at places where you stay for one or two hours is a lot, around 50% charge. Places like restaurants, hospitals, shopping centres and so on.
Last edited:
Because you mentioned that Tesla said it as a reference. Can't trust anything that comes out of that company. There is a lot of hot air and promises.
It looks like the SAE was updated with the specification: https://www.sae.org/standards/content/j3400_202409/
That would be pretty impressive. On public accessible infrastructure? I'm surprised there is not more talk about that then.
Well with AC the charger is in the vehicle, so the vehicle needs to support it. AC is just a supply. It really depends on the house, but the processes are in place to upgrade if it isn't capable yet. Typically free of charge at the point of use. For example our home in the UK was build in the eighties, still had a 60A connection and is single phase. An upgrade to 100A is not problem and free of charge. An upgrade to 3 phase was going to cost like 16K but that is because our private driveway is too far from the public road, and the road needs permissions and traffic management to be shut.
Our home in the Netherlands is from 1928, and has 3 phase. It is pretty standard there, but like with everything can come in different configurations and they like to right-size the connection. So you need to justify why you want an increased connection; you know heated pool, tennis court flood light, the hot lamps above the capybara pool, the growing of tobacco plants in the loft, cryptominers, or just nice fast charging, battery storage and a few heatpumps
If you have access to the sae site, I'd be interested to know if that standard changed last september.
Anyone on 800V arch should probably avoid the SuC network until ti v4 stalls are powered by v4 cabinets.
Plus the experience still isn't as good as just plugging in and going, you have to mess with the app still, dunno if that will ever not be a thing.
80 Amps. There are multiple vehicles that can accept 80 Amps single-phase AC charging. F-150 Lightning, GM's big pickups (Hummer EV, Silverado EV, etc,) Lucid Air.
Telsa's AC charging is based on J1772, just with a different shape plug, older Model S with dual chargers can charge at 80 Amps using 80 Amp J1772 EVSEs through the Tesla-supplied adapter.
The only Teslas that can do 80 Amp AC charging are early Model S with the optional dual chargers, and the earliest Model X again with dual chargers. By the Model 3's release, 80 Amp charging had been dropped as even optional on all Teslas.
As for DC: CCS is in theory capable of up to 500kW - 500 Amps at 1000 Volts. Tesla's custom protocol is capable of 600 Amps, but only "400V-class" (up to about 500 Volts, so about 300kW.) The CCS-based J3400/NACS is rated for 650 Amps at 1000 Volts for 600kW.
Tesla Superchargers of V3 or lower don't do "800V", only "400V" (I put voltages in quotes because those are usually how they're called, but in reality, those are just "the average middle voltage of a range".) So Even at their high amperage, "800V" vehicles are at a disadvantage. Tesla V4 (that have both V4 back-end hardware plus V4 dispensers, most locations that currently have "V4 hardware" have just the dispensers, and aren't actually fully V4) full V4 can do high voltage and amperage.
Someone mentioned Tesla Semi using "standard V4" - it isn't. It's a V4 dispenser with custom Tesla Semi backing hardware that operates at even higher voltages. (Tesla is a member of the "Megawatt Charging System" planning group that should have a new standardized connector for semi-type vehicles that support up to 3.75MW. Once Semi is in "full production", it should have the MCS connector instead of the Tesla/NACS connector.) Yes, the Semi can also use "standard Superchargers", but it isn't drawing 1MW on those. Only on the special ones specifically for Semis.
Ford and Rivian are "plug and go" on Supercharger. I don't know about any of the other brands.
Of course, neither Ford nor Rivian have 800V vehicles.
I just avoid Tesla altogether. No interest in giving that guy another penny. Fortunately in Europe we have plenty of other options.