I think the grants ship has sailed. You already don't get one on a home charger. The early adopters (the ones with the most money like my boss!) benefited where as we won't.
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Who has or is planning to get an electric car / EV Talk
- Thread starter PracticalMac
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I don't know because I didn't write them, but its fair to say that if you are arguing against lithium you are also arguing against ANYTHING that uses that type of battery. Might be hard to walk away from all battery powered phones, laptops and the like.Question
Do those "studies" include the environmental impacts of mowing down forests, strip mining lithium ore, the huge amounts of water consumed during extraction and processing, the impacts on water supply for agricultural and drinking water, the contamination of surrounding soil and water tables, the huge evaporation ponds, the pollutants emitted by the equipment used during extraction and processing, the toxic chemicals introduced into the food supply?
The Environmental Impact of Lithium Batteries
During the Obama-Biden administration, hydraulic fracturing was accused of causing a number of environmental problems—faucets on fire, contamination of drinking…www.instituteforenergyresearch.org
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Lithium can be recycled and improvements are being made in that respect every day. However the petrol engine will most certainly continue to damage the environment for many years to come. Both in terms of burning fossil fuels and oil spills etc.
Then how can you claim that an EV environmental impact is offset in 2 years?
There is a scientific analogy between flees and humans. Place a bunch of flees in a jar with a fixed food supply, they will consume every resource until they run out of resources and pollute themselves to death. Humans are living in the same jar, called planet earth.
Question
Do those "studies" include the environmental impacts of mowing down forests, strip mining lithium ore, the huge amounts of water consumed during extraction and processing, the impacts on water supply for agricultural and drinking water, the contamination of surrounding soil and water tables, the huge evaporation ponds, the pollutants emitted by the equipment used during extraction and processing, the toxic chemicals introduced into the food supply?
All EVs do is shift the the problem from one highly polluting non-renewal resources to another, while the corporations and politicians get rich bleeding the taxpayer dry through higher prices and taxes.
The Environmental Impact of Lithium Batteries
During the Obama-Biden administration, hydraulic fracturing was accused of causing a number of environmental problems—faucets on fire, contamination of drinking…
View attachment 2004947
The words “unfounded concerns about fracking” threw up a red flag, considering that wastewater injection and fracking have been linked to increased earthquakes. A brief inspection of this organization’s website yielded text such as:
“Municipaliies across the country have taken it upon themselves, often at the behest of radical environmentalists…”
”Wealth-reducing government activism”
A Google search on this organization led to the following:
Institute for Energy Research - Wikipedia
Institute for Energy Research - SourceWatch
Institute for Energy Research
Institute for Energy Research (IER) Background The Institute for Energy Research (IER) is a not-for-profit organization under Section 501(c)(3) of the Internal Revenue Code that “conducts intensive research and analysis on the functions, operations, and government regulation of global energy...
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I didn’t claim anything. I mentioned a study I read. If we can only mention studies we wrote ourselves this is going to be a very short discussion.
EV’s impact the planet less than ICE cars. Are they perfect? Of course not. We can choose to adapt or stick our heads in the sand and keep on doing the same things we have been.
But for me that’s not an option. Purchased my i3 today.
I don’t disagree. Besides that, the problem with the auto market right now in general, is that nobody knows where it is leading in terms of stability. Leasing rates are absolutely ridiculous right now, which is a horrible way to finance a car if you investigated that at all. Electric vehicles are basically non-existent and are ‘made to order’, even the ones you can order, don’t even have a realistic expectation date from some manufacturers. Most brand-name dealerships have hardly any new stock on their lots at all, which it’s been that way for six months at least.
I think the best advice currently for any general consumer, is if your vehicle is in good standing with the condition and mileage, I would keep it until things can ‘pan out’, until somebody would find something that they can reasonably afford without having to pay too much inflation, which applies to both EV and internal combustion vehicles.
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I would think that hybrid technology should be the first process taking place between ICE automobiles and EV's. In this case, to continue improving the internal combustion engine: making them lighter, stronger, and more fuel efficient, and at the same time pairing them to electric motors for propulsion. This has been done already with both the non-pluggable Toyota Prius. But to switch from one expensive product (petroleum-base fuels) to another very expensive product (batteries) to reduce emissions makes no sense to me. Well, I am old and don't have a lot of years left to live, so "you the young generations" will have to decide which course lead on your way to old age
How about vehicles of the future that have clean-burning engines, generate their own and sustainable power, and have very small batteries? The metals and plastics used for batteries aren't limitless and also are very expensive. The same for the process of bringing fuel to the pump. Switching from one product to the other only makes a difference in the short run. In a way we are getting out of a hole and jumping into another, instead of exploring future solutions like captain Picard going to where no man has gone before.
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You seem to think batteries will never get better while ICE somehow has potential to keep getting more efficient.
Personally I think the low displacement turbo charged ICE economy cars are the best ones to replace with EVs. They aren’t fun to drive, sound terrible and generally struggle with passing power and acceleration. Lower powered EVs are still relatively quick and the power is more accessible/immediate.
Personally I think the low displacement turbo charged ICE economy cars are the best ones to replace with EVs. They aren’t fun to drive, sound terrible and generally struggle with passing power and acceleration. Lower powered EVs are still relatively quick and the power is more accessible/immediate.
No. You are assuming that I don't think batteries will get better. All "made" products and precesses can be improved or made better, not just internal combustion engines. Keep in mind that there is is a power/weight ratio used in the automobile industries. For example, F1 automobiles can accelerate quickly, but a motor GP bike can accelerate much faster.
Having "fun" is just an emotional thing, and is different to every driver out there.
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Your purchase of a 60 year old carbureted vehicle is extremely atypical and it is a rare vehicle that survives that long. You cannot consider that a typical lifetime of an ICEV. Aside from early Leafs who had a poor battery management system, most EV batteries are lasting quite long. The newer designs even more so. As the battery tech matures, I expect them to last even longer.
Curious, why are you posting that photo of an Australian gold mine? You aren’t trying to pretend that it is a lithium “mine” are you? that would be inaccurate. Of course the oil industry funded institute for energy research doesn’t care about accuracy as long as they can scare people aware from EVs.Question
Do those "studies" include the environmental impacts of mowing down forests, strip mining lithium ore, the huge amounts of water consumed during extraction and processing, the impacts on water supply for agricultural and drinking water, the contamination of surrounding soil and water tables, the huge evaporation ponds, the pollutants emitted by the equipment used during extraction and processing, the toxic chemicals introduced into the food supply?
All EVs do is shift the the problem from one highly polluting non-renewal resources to another, while the corporations and politicians get rich bleeding the taxpayer dry through higher prices and taxes.
The Environmental Impact of Lithium Batteries
During the Obama-Biden administration, hydraulic fracturing was accused of causing a number of environmental problems—faucets on fire, contamination of drinking…
View attachment 2004947
Hanking to pour first gold from Marvel Loch
Hong Kong-listed Hanking Gold Mining is preparing to pour its first gold dore bar from its Southern Cross operations since it swooped on St Barbara's mothballed assets in January 2013.
thewest.com.au
While 60 years may be a stretch, I typically keep a car well over 10 years (I know that again that is not typical but it is a reality for me). Usually an ICE vehicle requires only routine maintenance in my experience to last this long, but any EV today is going to require a very expensive battery replacement at least once during the same time. So even forgetting the increased price, extended time needed for charging, etc., there is no way that I will be in the market for an EV anytime soon.
Not sure an EV is going to need an expensive battery replacement at least once is true. There is very little to support this. Most manufacturers offer an 8 year warranty on the battery, so it’s very unlikely it wouldn’t last at least that.
Yes there will be some horror stories and exceptions. But then my Dads ICE engine had To be replaced in the first three years.
I don’t know where you are getting that ridiculous expectation that an EV will need a battery replacement “at least once” during 10 years.
Please read more carefully, I said “well over 10 years”. It is very unlikely that even a battery with an 8 year warranty will last 15 years.
A 15 year old ICE car is also likely to need a few items as well.
Clutch
Gear box
Turbo
Exhaust
Radiator
Cam belt
Unlikely to have to change any of that.
But it definitely won’t need an annual oil change and spark plugs changed periodically.
Notice I’ve excluded the parts both types of cars use like tyres and suspension etc. those are more compatible.
The car I just bought has it’s service scheduled to once every two years. And it’s around £100 cheaper. That’s £3,500 difference over 15 years if you just did the basic service.
Yes a battery won’t last forever. But neither do ICE. I think your just dead against electric cars. That’s a shame as there are some great cars out there. But I come across the outdated views you hold quite a bit. Some people just aren’t ready to embrace change. You’ll come round. Or (in the U.K. at least), you’ll have to use the bus. As they will stop selling ICE cars in the near future.
There are numerous parts that can malfunction or deteriorate in both EV's and ICE vehicles. An EV has a drive unit with a set of gears that are lubricated/cooled with oils. Some have heat pumps to aid with heating, and the battery's temperature has to be monitored and maintained within a certain temperature range. There are numerous temperature and pressure sensors throughout the vehicle. The battery temperature sensors come into play whenever the battery's temperature approaches the low or the high limits, even when the EV is parked and not pugged to an electrical outlet.
ICE vehicles, just like EVs have numerous temperature and pressure sensors thought the vehicle, and just like EVs they also have traction/stability controls, TPM, ABS and other sensors. The EV has electric motors, while the ICE vehicle has an internal combustion motor (engine). Compare an EV battery to the fuel tank of an ICE vehicle, and the EV motor (s) to an internal combustion engine.
The average vehicle's warranty in the US for an ICE vehicle is 3 years or 36,000 miles for the powertrain, and longer for seatbelts and a few other things. The warranty for an EV's battery seems to be around 8-years, and it is possible that like ICE vehicles, some of the safety devises or systems have longer warranties.
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The last new vehicle I purchased was in 2009, a Subaru Forester. The idea was for me to give to my wife as a present, but she didn't like driving it because the seats made her back ache. In 2011 I traded it for a used, but still under warranty Toyota RV4 V6, and she is still driving it nearly 75,000 miles later. We haven't had any mechanical problems with this automobile, nor with the 2012 Corolla that I bought "used" in 2014.
I also have a 2001 Silverado truck that I purchased around 6-7 years ago when the odometer reached 184,000 miles, and today it shows a little under 215,000 miles. I have been using this truck when I go camping, hunting, when taking photos of the auroras during the winter nights, or when photographing wildlife during the summer (I drive long distances and spend numerous hours on these summer trips). I had a mechanic replace the water pump, and a power steering hose for a cost of under $600.00, and I replaced the alternator myself, not because it needed replacing, but because it was the original alternator. I have never had to replace the motor of any of the vehicles I have driven for the past 50 years. Well I did replace part of the motor of a 1981 F-150 truck several years ago. The motor was OK, but it "threw" (whoever that means) one of the pushrods, and NAPA had what on sale what is called, "a short block" for a little over $500.00. A friend and I replaced the motor, and I gave the truck to a coworker of mine about seven years ago.
ICE vehicles, just like EVs have numerous temperature and pressure sensors thought the vehicle, and just like EVs they also have traction/stability controls, TPM, ABS and other sensors. The EV has electric motors, while the ICE vehicle has an internal combustion motor (engine). Compare an EV battery to the fuel tank of an ICE vehicle, and the EV motor (s) to an internal combustion engine.
The average vehicle's warranty in the US for an ICE vehicle is 3 years or 36,000 miles for the powertrain, and longer for seatbelts and a few other things. The warranty for an EV's battery seems to be around 8-years, and it is possible that like ICE vehicles, some of the safety devises or systems have longer warranties.
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The last new vehicle I purchased was in 2009, a Subaru Forester. The idea was for me to give to my wife as a present, but she didn't like driving it because the seats made her back ache. In 2011 I traded it for a used, but still under warranty Toyota RV4 V6, and she is still driving it nearly 75,000 miles later. We haven't had any mechanical problems with this automobile, nor with the 2012 Corolla that I bought "used" in 2014.
I also have a 2001 Silverado truck that I purchased around 6-7 years ago when the odometer reached 184,000 miles, and today it shows a little under 215,000 miles. I have been using this truck when I go camping, hunting, when taking photos of the auroras during the winter nights, or when photographing wildlife during the summer (I drive long distances and spend numerous hours on these summer trips). I had a mechanic replace the water pump, and a power steering hose for a cost of under $600.00, and I replaced the alternator myself, not because it needed replacing, but because it was the original alternator. I have never had to replace the motor of any of the vehicles I have driven for the past 50 years. Well I did replace part of the motor of a 1981 F-150 truck several years ago. The motor was OK, but it "threw" (whoever that means) one of the pushrods, and NAPA had what on sale what is called, "a short block" for a little over $500.00. A friend and I replaced the motor, and I gave the truck to a coworker of mine about seven years ago.
Yes, that's a long story above
To those who can afford buying a new EV or ICE vehicle, please don't be dissuaded from from doing what you want or need. While some EV's date back to the 1,900's, modern EV technology is relatively new and much improved. You don't have to take my advise as if written on stone, but I am old enough to understand that it is a lot more pleasurable to enjoy life when one has it.
To those who can afford buying a new EV or ICE vehicle, please don't be dissuaded from from doing what you want or need. While some EV's date back to the 1,900's, modern EV technology is relatively new and much improved. You don't have to take my advise as if written on stone, but I am old enough to understand that it is a lot more pleasurable to enjoy life when one has it.
So much change is needed before we can all drive electric though. It’s been admitted our National Grid couldn’t cope now if 32.9m people all owned electric cars and I’m sure work is going on to prepare for this. We need to see faster charging, longer ranges and lower costing EV’s before it can be said it’s possible for us to convert over to this new technology. You’ve done it and congratulations. I couldn’t afford £36k on a car and I’d need a much bigger one in any case. People are reluctant because of these factors and are aware it is changing by the year. It just seems a short space of time to see so much improvement.
It isn’t perfect, and I’m not pretending it is. My user case is quite different from yours and others. I don’t transport more than myself and Mrs AFB around (although the i3 can accommodate 4 when it needs to, but not ideal with kids). I do t often drive anywhere other than work which is 25 miles away. When I do have further to travel a few times a year, I’ll factor in stops or hire a different car (as it will most likely be work rather than me going there!).
The cost isn’t easy to swallow. But realistically if I was buying a nearly new ice car it would cost around the same if I had the same specs.
I’ll certainly let people know how ownership works out.
If I was in your situation then I would definitely try an EV. You are sympathetic to different use cases though. I’ve of them mindset I will have one eventually, but I don’t want to invest this early. My wife may get one in a couple of years as her next package includes a company car and most of the other directors in her company have EV’s or hybrids.
Truth is an EV will suit me most of the time. But not all the time. Sometimes I’ll need more range. Others I could use a van. But I’m not prepared to own three cars!
We all choose what’s best for our personal circumstances. It’s not one fits all situation.
That open pit mine looks a lot cleaner than this Canadian oil sands pit:Question
Do those "studies" include the environmental impacts of mowing down forests, strip mining lithium ore, the huge amounts of water consumed during extraction and processing, the impacts on water supply for agricultural and drinking water, the contamination of surrounding soil and water tables, the huge evaporation ponds, the pollutants emitted by the equipment used during extraction and processing, the toxic chemicals introduced into the food supply?
All EVs do is shift the the problem from one highly polluting non-renewal resources to another, while the corporations and politicians get rich bleeding the taxpayer dry through higher prices and taxes.
The Environmental Impact of Lithium Batteries
During the Obama-Biden administration, hydraulic fracturing was accused of causing a number of environmental problems—faucets on fire, contamination of drinking…
View attachment 2004947
In addition, lithium will not be the only battery option. CATL is preparing to launch a sodium ion battery, and work is progressing on building batteries with sodium anodes. FYI - this is a sodium mine:
You may be surprised to learn that AWD is a relatively recent option on cars. There are alternatives - winter tires and learn to drive come to mind. My wife's FWD car is fine during our snowy and icy Boston winters.
Perhaps you should purchase a 60 year old rotary telephone, too, because they are easy to repair.