The person in the "youtube" link I posted somewhere above has a video where he explains in great detail.
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Who has or is planning to get an electric car / EV Talk
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The creator of the "Engineering Explained" YouTube channel is an automotive engineer who writes for car magazines. He owns a Tesla Model 3 Performance and various other cars. On his channel, he addressed various EV topics such as:
Many people buy big pickup trucks based on "what if I need to carry a big load some day" rather than what they do most of the time.
Some people like to point out that the electricity to used charge an EV was made from coal or oil. While electricity can be made in many different ways (fossil fuel, solar, geothermal, wind, nuclear), gasoline can only be made from oil. Once the gasoline is burned, it is gone. Not so for renewable energy sources. EV batteries can be recharged or recycled.
Emissions/carbon footprint related to operating an EV. There are multiple ways to produce electricity, some cleaner or dirtier than others. The carbon emissions from charging an EV depends on location because different areas of the country produce more clean or dirty electricity.
If fossil fuel must be used, it makes more sense to confine it to power plants so the pollution can be managed from fewer locations rather than millions of exhaust pipes everywhere.
Efficiency of EVs and some interesting conclusions
Due to efficiency, it makes more sense to use fossil fuel to generate electricity for powering EVs than burning it in gas cars: longer distance in EVs for the same amount of energy used, even in suboptimal conditions such as cold weather or towing.
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I'm soo happy with my model 3, bought in 2019. I researched a bunch of cars and bit the bullet for an entry level config. I never expected I would like it so much. It's like a smart phone on wheels. As a tech geek, every month, there's a new update, and features get added and tweaked. And if you look at battery technology alone, I still think Tesla is 10 years ahead of everybody else. They have amazing engineering teams, and all other car companies are now trying to be like them. Ok, I have become a total fan. But I could go on and on about amazing features and factoids. You know the first Tesla was designed in a rocket factory?
I beg to differ.
The first Tesla was designed in a woman's womb. The second Tesla was designed in a garage here in Sacramento.
BL.
All good points, but:
a. In reality, at least in the US, there has been a shift from coal and petroleum products to natural gas for electrical power production. However, natural gas still is not a "clean-burning" fuel, just cleaner than some of the other fuels, and once burned it's gone just the same. Even Uranium and other products used to generate electricity "are gone" after.
b. At this time, and possible into the far future, it's impossible to limit the use of fossil fuels solely for generating electricity. Fossil fuels are used for aircraft, automobiles, ships, for home heating, in the construction industries, transportation, and on, and on. Even the military depends on fossil fuels. Keep in mind that every product in the market (every product you buy, your home, apartment, microwave oven..."all goods") must be made somewhere and then delivered to the place you buy it at by trucks/aircraft/ships/trains... operating on fossil fuels.
c. Regardless of how efficient electricity is, because fuels are so dense compared to the amount of electricity you can pack in a battery, an EV can't duplicate the road-drive range of an ICE vehicle of the same size, weight, and aerodynamics. Now, the density of fuel is quite low compared to uranium
Trucks, trains, and ships can be (and are) electrified. Airplanes, not so much, though there are smaller electric aircraft being experimented with. Also, the environmental impact of making an EV is more of a one-time thing, since the batteries can be recycled, and quite effectively at that. You don't need to keep mining lithium forever, whereas you do need to keep pumping oil forever (or until it runs out eventually), and it can't be recycled, obviously. Hydrogen, by the way, is a huge dead-end and should be ignored in most cases. It's significantly less efficient and significantly more inconvenient compared to battery electric (transporting/storing it is hard and expensive), and most hydrogen is made from fossil fuels anyway.
Newer EVs do duplicate the range of gasoline cars (though specifics do vary) and are generally equivalent in size and aerodynamics. The main difference is in weight and that is less of a consideration for a wheeled vehicle than for an aircraft. Ultimately, if the cost of removing CO2 is increased weight of the vehicles, that is a reasonable tradeoff....
c. Regardless of how efficient electricity is, because fuels are so dense compared to the amount of electricity you can pack in a battery, an EV can't duplicate the road-drive range of an ICE vehicle of the same size, weight, and aerodynamics. Now, the density of fuel is quite low compared to uranium
Coming soon to an anti clean energy advertisement near you:
If we wait several million years for new oil to form, does that mean oil is renewable energy?
In 4 billion years the sun will use up all its hydrogen, expand into a red giant and destroy Earth's atmosphere. Does that mean wind and solar energy are not renewable?
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Anything can be electrified, but the electricity must be generated by something other than electricity. In an ideal world all trains, ships, can be electrified. For example, you can have a nuclear submarine that is completely electrified (it generates all the electricity needed to power the vessel.
EV batteries can be recycled but not 100% at this time unless you are willing to pay. The process is so expensive and time consuming, that it is cheaper to produce a new battery, something that it's being done around the world. Lithium is not the only mineral used in the construction of Lithium-Ion batteries (about 5% of EV batteries are being recycled around the world). You do need to keep extracting lithium and other minerals used for batteries as long as batteries are needed. These minerals aren't renewable like sunlight, wind, rain, ocean tides, and others.
Lithium-ion Battery Recycling: What You Need to Know | Waaree ESS
Since EVs only use lithium-ion batteries as a source of power, is it possible to recycle these batteries? Read whether these batteries can be recycled or not
waareeess.com
It is not as simple as that. Electricity is about one-third the density of fuel. Just look at the drive range of the 2022 electric Mini Cooper (hardtop), versus the 2022 ICE Mini Cooper. Both weight nearly the same (the E one is within 200 pounds heavier). The only way you can double the range of the eMini is by doubling the battery size, but even so it cannot duplicate the drive range of the ICE mini, because it would be something like giving a ride to two 200-pound gorillas up and down the road. Read the specifications for the eMini Cooper near the bottom of the page, and compare these specifications to the ICE Mini Cooper (the link for the ICE mini Cooper is found under Interior, Comfort, and Cargo). Just keep this in mind:
a. 9 gallons of fuel in the Mini = 54 pounds that is contained in a very small tank.
b. The power to weight ratio are just two of several factors considered in determining MPG/eMPG.
c. I am not standing in the defense or against ICE nor EV.
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Why do you keep using the Mini Cooper as an example? Yes, it comes in both EV and ICEV versions that that EV is ancient by today’s standards and was never designed from the ground up for EV use. It is not an efficient design. Newer EVs do not compromise on cargo, comfort, or interior. Newer EVs already have ranges around 300 miles which compares to the 330 on our ICEV. Over the next 5-10 years, battery tech will continue to evolve and you will see increased range. You may see reduced weight and you will see increased lifetime.
Beside that, who cares if the EV version is heavier? It will usually be faster, at least in acceleration, and even the handling is good on EVs due to the low center weight. They may not be a nimble when used as a sports car, but that is a slice of a niche in the automobile market these days.
Perhaps you have missed the points I have made in relation to the density of fuel and electricity? I have referred to drive ranges.
Now, the way electricity delivers power to the wheels is super efficient, and I have already said this in preview posts. If you want fast super acceleration, yes...some powerful EVs can do that, and also some powerful ICE automobiles. But I doubt that consumers are buying EV's because of fast acceleration alone, specially those who drive on icy roads and other slippery conditions.
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I just think the infrastructure isn’t where I want it to be just yet. From an environmental point of view would it not be easier to make us all drive smaller 1 litre engines as there is no point speeding etc as it’s illegal. I’ve never seen anyone make this proposal and what the benefits would be?
i just watched a review of the new BMW X3 electric and it’s 20k more than its Combustion powered version so how is that a saving? It would take years to recoup the 20k difference and most peeps don’t keep their car that long these days
i just watched a review of the new BMW X3 electric and it’s 20k more than its Combustion powered version so how is that a saving? It would take years to recoup the 20k difference and most peeps don’t keep their car that long these days
City "mass transit" is the future for the masses, and those who can afford it will have their own ways to travel. The saying that, "there isn't such a thing as a free lunch," is true.
I’m not sure I’d agree with that. People mostly Hate mass transit and the car has been the thing we all aspire to own to give us our freedom. No one likes waiting for a bus in the middle of winter when it’s raining
sure, I understood the density question, I just don't see it as a major problem. Yes, an EV is likely to be heavier than an ICEV for a similar sized vehicle. The density is not significant in a chassis designed for EVs where the battery does not intrude on the interior space even with higher range models. I'm not talking about super fast acceleration, just a side note that acceleration is not a problem for EVs, in spite of the weight.
Weight and density is not a significant problem for most people in most scenarios.
Don't forget that there is no timing belt or any belts to change, spark plugs to change and engine to tune up, catalytic converter to keep from getting stolen (it's getting bad here in Louisville), mufflers to fix, filters to change (oil/fuel), multitude of sensors around cat converter (no check engine light), and once you get used to 1 pedal driving, brake pads last far far longer than ice car ones.
And charging up on a road trip is generally 32cents/kilowatt which ends up being ~$8-10 depending on the state of charge of the battery. Gas here in KY is $4.19/gallon for the cheap stuff...the higher performance cars (cadillac, corvette, etc) probably require the supreme unleaded which is over $5/gallon.
So there are other advantages...
All true. However, EV's areas have battery temperature management system that use coolants and numerous sensors throughout the entire vehicle, drive units with gears and lubricants. Some have heat pumps, AC, and resistive heaters. But regardless of the differences between EV's and ICE automobiles, most of the electrical control units (ECU, TPM, traction/stability, and braking work in similar ways. An ICE automobile troubleshooter who is already trained, can easily be trained to troubleshoot EV electrical malfunctions. The main difference is that instead of an internal combustion engine, the mechanic is now working with electric motors.
I don't disagree about the advantages one may have over the other. All vehicles have advantages and disadvantages. Those who can afford paying for fuel have no trouble with paying for it. The same for a person who can afford buying the top of the line EV, or even ICE automobile.
Density is not a major problem for owning and EV versus and ICE vehicle. All I have said is that since fuel is so dense compared to electrical energy, ICE automobiles have longer drive-mile ranges. The problem with ICE automobiles is the emissions coming out the tailpipe. And you are correct, rapid acceleration relates to the very efficient way that electricity can be delivered to the wheels. Fuel density is more important wherever you want to stretch mileage, while still have more cargo room, and less weight. In aviation, for example. Another place where fuel density makes a big difference is for submarine use, specially nuclear ones. No one fuel out there can approach the density of uranium, which gives me an idea about the future EV I want: this one would have a micro-nuclear reactor that would power the EV for years at a time without charging.
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That's misleading and outdated. There haven't been enough batteries up to now for battery recycling to be economic, but that will obviously be changing. Already there are better and cheaper techniques, like what Li-Cycle does, which involves hydrometallurgy rather than smelting, and it gets back almost all the elements which can be used to make new batteries. That's also ignoring repurposing rather than recycling (such as using old car batteries for solar storage), and while that doesn't eliminate recycling, it does significantly extend a battery's lifespan. Also, car battery packs haven't been made with recycling in mind so far, which hopefully will change, further reducing costs.
Closed loop recycling is absolutely a real thing, and given the rapid development of battery and recycling technologies, it's short-sighted to think that what we have right now is all it can ever be. It's already improved quite a lot over the last several years. By contrast, internal combustion has been refined over many decades now and there's not much room left for any significant improvements.
I’ve seen some justify the higher cost because longterm they won’t pay as much to charge as you would to fill up with fuel. I have one problem with that and that’s the immediate cost is also important and the one element that gets people into debt. Fuel is a gradual expense and easier to manage, whereas finding an extra £20k, £30k, £40 to fund an EV is perhaps a problem for every average person on a modest income. Even leasing an EV is £450-£600 a month with limited annual mileage (larger cars). I’ve done a bit of research into that side to see if my employer would take on a scheme. People also have to factor in the cost of installing a home charger which isn’t cheap.
Saving the planet for me is very far down the list when it comes to my interest in EV’s. My motivation would be to save money first and foremost, but right now EV’s are aimed at the luxury sector which isn’t really the message the government is trying to give out.
Exactly, they’ve just announced an electric corsa that starts at 28k!!! Imagine telling your younger self that in the future a corsa will cost 28k!
If saving the planet is the big concern then I think they should ban all big petrols and diesels and make us drive 1.0 petrols. As surely that will help delay the damage to the environment and our wallets in fuel costs.
I’ve seen you comment to my post about MPG on the car thread. America does not appear to have any economical petrol cars. That to me is bonkers! Especially when they like to talk about the environment the most or certainly the celebs do.
I drove a 1.0L petrol Ford Focus a couple of years ago though and the fuel economy was great if you did a maximum speed of 55mph. As soon as you go on the motorway it’s almost like you can see the fuel gauge going down as you accelerate lol. I also live in a very hilly part of Wales and think an underpowered car would drive me nuts.
We do have clean air zones here though in major cities where traffic is dense and I think they are a good idea. It costs me £8 a day to drive around Birmingham for example and this will put a lot of people off going which in turn reduces pollution. The speed limit on certain roads is reduced too in built up areas to improve air quality.
All EV’s are definitely not aimed at the luxury sector, when there’s quite a few models that start/near around $38,000-is, and most definitely don’t include luxury materials either. The problem here in North America, is a two fold situation, the infrastructure (Both the electric grid and roadways) has to improve to have a wide-spread platform for electric and not enough consumers have the necessary education of why they would want an electric car, because that requires a significant change from their internal combustion vehicle. With fuel prices being unstable as they are now, definitely provokes consumers to other possibilities. And the last reason being, the availability is far too limited with manufacturers that can’t produce them fast enough due to lack of parts availability, which is something that probably won’t be established more lucratively until the end of this decade.
The other consideration too, is that usually the base model EV from manufacturers, includes a ‘single motor’ that is either FWD or RWD, and in some states where snow is predominant, AWD is the only real considerable option for better stability/handling, which also means that would include a ‘dual motor’ for EV’s, which includes a higher price tag for those models. There’s a fairly distinct price hike between a single motor and dual motor EV, which I think is probably too steep for some consumers to upgrade, depending on what trim option they choose and from what manufacturer.
But besides all that, [And not to turn this thread into economics], but the entire consumer market is upside down with the cost of housing, retail/grocery is obviously more expensive, I already mentioned fuel prices, even airfare is considerably higher for travel, the list goes on. So in that event, I think all these inflation rising costs is pushing the consumer to keep their ICE vehicles longer, where they are essentially trapped until the market can settle and return to some sense of normalcy before they consider purchasing a new car, given if the average consumer isn’t able to keep up with the rising costs of living, then there’s no way that they’re considering an EV or any new vehicle for that matter.
The other consideration too, is that usually the base model EV from manufacturers, includes a ‘single motor’ that is either FWD or RWD, and in some states where snow is predominant, AWD is the only real considerable option for better stability/handling, which also means that would include a ‘dual motor’ for EV’s, which includes a higher price tag for those models. There’s a fairly distinct price hike between a single motor and dual motor EV, which I think is probably too steep for some consumers to upgrade, depending on what trim option they choose and from what manufacturer.
But besides all that, [And not to turn this thread into economics], but the entire consumer market is upside down with the cost of housing, retail/grocery is obviously more expensive, I already mentioned fuel prices, even airfare is considerably higher for travel, the list goes on. So in that event, I think all these inflation rising costs is pushing the consumer to keep their ICE vehicles longer, where they are essentially trapped until the market can settle and return to some sense of normalcy before they consider purchasing a new car, given if the average consumer isn’t able to keep up with the rising costs of living, then there’s no way that they’re considering an EV or any new vehicle for that matter.
You can get some very small EV’s here from the likes of Nissan and Renault but even those are £20k+. The average car purchase in the UK is £12k. Your figure of $38k (£30k) is still high. I’ve never spent more than £25k on a car and I have a decent job. Who are those 30 grand cars aimed at or are you suggesting they would be more affordable secondhand?
I think the car industry as a whole including the EV sector are about to have a huge shock as spending is in decline at a worrying level and buying cars will be a luxury. People will hang into their cars even longer in the next decade I think.