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VictorTango777

macrumors 6502a
Oct 28, 2017
893
1,634
I think @jz0309 is on the money…lots of 12v accessories from blowers to lighting to wiper motors, etc., already in the supply chain (somewhere?) anyway so no need to reengineer them. But I think there might be another reason: do you really want high-voltage throughout the cabin for things like controls, displays, seat motors, electric door locks, window motors, and so on? What would be the wiring and fusing requirements? Would something as simple as changing the bulb in the glovebox require disconnecting the high-voltage battery altogether? How would first responders at an accident get around that? I guess there are ways, as Hyundai has done, but is that cost effective? I don’t know, but don’t think so. Good discussion topic though.

In newer Teslas the 12 V lead acid battery is replaced by a lithium ion battery that is much smaller, lighter, and should last longer:


There is a desire by some in the auto industry to move the low voltage components to 48 V which would allow for lower current and thinner wires. But as mentioned before, it would also require replacing the existing 12 V components.
 

The-Real-Deal82

macrumors P6
Jan 17, 2013
17,328
25,491
Wales, United Kingdom
There is a program on tv here ‘should I buy an electric car’ on channel 5 here in the UK now. It’s going through all the scenarios of owning a car and it’s highlighting all my concerns to be honest. Longer journey times when going long distances, a lack of public charging points, and a point I hadn’t thought of and that is the lack of mechanics for the new technology. The program does suggest there is a lot being done to ensure this is all going to be rectified in the next 8 years but i’ll believe it when I see it.
 

44267547

Cancelled
Jul 12, 2016
37,642
42,495
There is a program on tv here ‘should I buy an electric car’ on channel 5 here in the UK now. It’s going through all the scenarios of owning a car and it’s highlighting all my concerns to be honest. Longer journey times when going long distances, a lack of public charging points, and a point I hadn’t thought of and that is the lack of mechanics for the new technology. The program does suggest there is a lot being done to ensure this is all going to be rectified in the next 8 years but i’ll believe it when I see it.
From my understanding, a lot of repairs with EV’s, the majority of trouble faults can be diagnosed through code & software fluency pinpointing to the specific problem, but it’s necessary to have technician(s) who are versed in electrical tracing and schematic readouts.

Also, I think the bigger challenge isn’t necessarily the lack of mechanics, because if you think about it, EV manufacturers have policy and procedure with updated training for these technicians to be able to diagnose and work on EV vehicles. I suspect the bigger challenge is to actually locate a technician who is intelligent and properly trained to competently understand and diagnose the troubleshooting effectively in a reasonable timeframe. It’s a totally different spectrum from working on an internal combustion engine when dealing with code/formulas and electrical read outs with EV’s. The level education to me seems to be the biggest hurdle versus training ‘every technician’ a dealership has, when only a specific few techs might be able to actually grasp the material and effectively solve the problem. It’s a spectrum that every dealership has some technicians who are just more skilled than others, but it’s not really uniform where they all share the same strengths.
 
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The-Real-Deal82

macrumors P6
Jan 17, 2013
17,328
25,491
Wales, United Kingdom
From my understanding, a lot of repairs with EV’s, the majority of trouble faults can be diagnosed through code & software fluency pinpointing to the specific problem, but it’s necessary to have technician(s) who are versed in electrical tracing and schematic readouts.

Also, I think the bigger challenge isn’t necessarily the lack of mechanics, because if you think about it, EV manufacturers have policy and procedure with updated training for these technicians to be able to diagnose and work on EV vehicles. I suspect the bigger challenge is to actually locate a technician who is intelligent and properly trained to competently understand and diagnose the troubleshooting effectively in a reasonable timeframe. It’s a totally different spectrum from working on an internal combustion engine when dealing with code/formulas and electrical read outs with EV’s. The level education to me seems to be the biggest hurdle versus training ‘every technician’ a dealership has, when only a specific few techs might be able to actually grasp the material and effectively solve the problem. It’s a spectrum that every dealership has some technicians who are just more skilled than others, but it’s not really uniform where they all share the same strengths.

It’s not dealerships that I am concerned about, it’s the independent garages located in towns that the vast majority of motorists use now for MOT’s, servicing and repairs. There’s a reason most people don’t go to the dealerships for these sorts of things and that’s because they rip you off. If dealerships are the only outlets for support with EV’s, that’s a problem. I’d like to think independent garages are looking to the future and preparing their mechanics for a new era of batteries, and electronics but I know a lot are in denial that this era will actually happen.
 

eddjedi

macrumors 6502a
Sep 7, 2011
632
853
Creators of EVs seem to have forgotten/excluded the 75%+ of the population who live in apartments or houses without driveways. I live on a semi-rural road with no driveway, and the likelihood of the council installing public charging points within 1/4 mile of my house are practically zero. So I have nowhere to charge an electric car, and until that problem is rectified, I can't consider anything other than a hybrid or petrol/diesel car.

It will be interesting to see how electric cars hold up too, I currently drive an 18 year old BMW and for the most part it still works. We all know car batteries won't last much longer than laptop batteries do (5ish years) but what about other things in modern cars like LCD guages, how often do you see a 20 year old laptop LCD that still works? I'd rather stick to analogue guages. I feel like electric cars are built to last 5-10 years and then be scrapped, which kind of defeats the point when there are plenty of 20-30+ year old 'traditional' cars still going strong.
 

44267547

Cancelled
Jul 12, 2016
37,642
42,495
It’s not dealerships that I am concerned about, it’s the independent garages located in towns that the vast majority of motorists use now for MOT’s, servicing and repairs. There’s a reason most people don’t go to the dealerships for these sorts of things and that’s because they rip you off. If dealerships are the only outlets for support with EV’s, that’s a problem. I’d like to think independent garages are looking to the future and preparing their mechanics for a new era of batteries, and electronics but I know a lot are in denial that this era will actually happen.
Yes, good point. It goes back to every part of the world a little bit different, and smaller garage sometimes they have mechanics stunted in their skill set growth as technology changes, because they don’t have the budget to send their technicians to the necessary training to continue to develop and learn. It’s also a problem here in North America where they (Smaller independent shops) can work on traditional vehicles, but when you start crossing in more intricate levels of electronic control modules, onboard diagnostics, they don’t have the technical acumen to diagnose, where it also requires a dealership hub, that have more specific tools that only they can diagnose with. Therefore, it forces out the ‘little shops’ where they can’t stay relevant. However, sometimes I wonder if these smaller, more independent shops, they don’t have any interest in training technicians on current EV technology, they’re not affected by these changes that are just now really in the beginning stages of growing the EV trend.

The Mercedes EQS [EV] for example, they only have specific data tools that can only be accessible through their network of dealerships, which would only make sense for many reasons, but they wouldn’t want any other shop tampering with troubleshooting.

One thing I do like about Tesla, is it on site Netwerk direct to your location to make any repairs, which I haven’t encountered yet with the Model S. (Then again, I’ve literally only driven it less than 100 miles.)
 
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Apple fanboy

macrumors Ivy Bridge
Feb 21, 2012
57,094
56,145
Behind the Lens, UK
Creators of EVs seem to have forgotten/excluded the 75%+ of the population who live in apartments or houses without driveways. I live on a semi-rural road with no driveway, and the likelihood of the council installing public charging points within 1/4 mile of my house are practically zero. So I have nowhere to charge an electric car, and until that problem is rectified, I can't consider anything other than a hybrid or petrol/diesel car.

It will be interesting to see how electric cars hold up too, I currently drive an 18 year old BMW and for the most part it still works. We all know car batteries won't last much longer than laptop batteries do (5ish years) but what about other things in modern cars like LCD guages, how often do you see a 20 year old laptop LCD that still works? I'd rather stick to analogue guages. I feel like electric cars are built to last 5-10 years and then be scrapped, which kind of defeats the point when there are plenty of 20-30+ year old 'traditional' cars still going strong.
Laptop batteries are different to electric car batteries. Most come with an 8 year warranty so will last much longer than a laptop battery. But the resale value is a concern for sure. But we have to do something to save the environment. We can no longer just stick our head in the sand and say it’s ok.
But even if you stick with ICE vehicles for now, the newer ones are all LCD this and that.
 
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Eric5h5

macrumors 68020
Dec 9, 2004
2,494
604
We all know car batteries won't last much longer than laptop batteries do (5ish years)
That's absolutely and completely false. They already last 100s of thousands of miles and will only get better.

As for car repair shops, new cars are already highly computerized and require specialized knowledge. EVs don't change anything there.
 

The-Real-Deal82

macrumors P6
Jan 17, 2013
17,328
25,491
Wales, United Kingdom
Yes, good point. It goes back to every part of the world a little bit different, and smaller garage sometimes they have mechanics stunted in their skill set growth as technology changes, because they don’t have the budget to send their technicians to the necessary training to continue to develop and learn. It’s also a problem here in North America where they (Smaller independent shops) can work on traditional vehicles, but when you start crossing in more intricate levels of electronic control modules, onboard diagnostics, they don’t have the technical acumen to diagnose, where it also requires a dealership hub, that have more specific tools that only they can diagnose with. Therefore, it forces out the ‘little shops’ where they can’t stay relevant. However, sometimes I wonder if these smaller, more independent shops, they don’t have any interest in training technicians on current EV technology, they’re not affected by these changes that are just now really in the beginning stages of growing the EV trend.

The Mercedes EQS [EV] for example, they only have specific data tools that can only be accessible through their network of dealerships, which would only make sense for many reasons, but they wouldn’t want any other shop tampering with troubleshooting.

One thing I do like about Tesla, is it on site Netwerk direct to your location to make any repairs, which I haven’t encountered yet with the Model S. (Then again, I’ve literally only driven it less than 100 miles.)

My local garage won’t even touch an automatic gearbox and when I asked around for servicing costs for this it was a similar answer. Less common I suppose. The move to more electronics on cars has been a problem for a while I think as most mechanics don’t seem to get involved in that side of things and direct you towards motor electricians which is a rather expensive service, especially if there is fault finding to do. Right now no garages within a 45 mile radius of me will repair EV’s. A guy I know had a Hyundai Ioniq and had to drive to Bristol for a fault which is an hour away, thankfully the car was drive-able. Still a long way to go to adapt to this new phase in motoring I think.
 

Apple fanboy

macrumors Ivy Bridge
Feb 21, 2012
57,094
56,145
Behind the Lens, UK
My local garage won’t even touch an automatic gearbox and when I asked around for servicing costs for this it was a similar answer. Less common I suppose. The move to more electronics on cars has been a problem for a while I think as most mechanics don’t seem to get involved in that side of things and direct you towards motor electricians which is a rather expensive service, especially if there is fault finding to do. Right now no garages within a 45 mile radius of me will repair EV’s. A guy I know had a Hyundai Ioniq and had to drive to Bristol for a fault which is an hour away, thankfully the car was drive-able. Still a long way to go to adapt to this new phase in motoring I think.
Especially if the car is not drivable (or is your only car). Personally my cars get to be dealt with at the dealership. Yes you pay more. But sometimes it’s the lesser of two evils. Depends on the age of your car as well of course.
 

The-Real-Deal82

macrumors P6
Jan 17, 2013
17,328
25,491
Wales, United Kingdom
Especially if the car is not drivable (or is your only car). Personally my cars get to be dealt with at the dealership. Yes you pay more. But sometimes it’s the lesser of two evils. Depends on the age of your car as well of course.

I haven’t had a very good experience with the dealerships I’ve dealt with in the past to be honest so I don’t even think the premium they charge is that justified. Volkswagen were really disorganised and kept my car longer than needed, Audi put the wrong mileage in the service history and MOT on the A4 I have now and it took over 18 months to rectify and they overcharged for work that wasn’t done. Admittedly this was before I owned the car but I know the previous owner. Peugeot had our 3008 back in September for 4 days to replace a microphone for the hands-free because they ‘forgot’ to do the job on consecutive days despite us ringing for regular updates multiple times a day lol. You can probably see why I wouldn’t pay £700 to have the cam belt changed at Audi when the garage down the road is far more competent and over £400 cheaper. I think you get what you don’t pay for

You’re right it does depend on the age of the car. Unless the work is free within warranty, avoid a dealer is my advice.
 

Apple fanboy

macrumors Ivy Bridge
Feb 21, 2012
57,094
56,145
Behind the Lens, UK
I haven’t had a very good experience with the dealerships I’ve dealt with in the past to be honest so I don’t even think the premium they charge is that justified. Volkswagen were really disorganised and kept my car longer than needed, Audi put the wrong mileage in the service history and MOT on the A4 I have now and it took over 18 months to rectify and they overcharged for work that wasn’t done. Admittedly this was before I owned the car but I know the previous owner. Peugeot had our 3008 back in September for 4 days to replace a microphone for the hands-free because they ‘forgot’ to do the job on consecutive days despite us ringing for regular updates multiple times a day lol. You can probably see why I wouldn’t pay £700 to have the cam belt changed at Audi when the garage down the road is far more competent and over £400 cheaper. I think you get what you don’t pay for

You’re right it does depend on the age of the car. Unless the work is free within warranty, avoid a dealer is my advice.
I’ve had good and bad experiences with dealers and the garage down the road as well. Truth is far ownership just costs.
 
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Herdfan

macrumors 65816
Apr 11, 2011
1,377
7,940
Over here on the NC/VA border, no one goes the speed limit...

And the popo sit right at the top of the big hill coming out of NC on I-77. Speed limit in NC is 70, but in VA on that section it is 65. People driving with their CC set at 77 or so get popped all day long.

In WV, there are no points for 10 over on a 4-lane. So most people drive 75-78.

Back when I first got married in the early 90's, we needed to go to Atlanta for a conference. Borrowed the parent's S-Class. Told the wife that once we passed Chattanooga on I-75, if we weren't doing 95+ we were a house. She didn't believe me........... :)
 

Herdfan

macrumors 65816
Apr 11, 2011
1,377
7,940
I’ve had good and bad experiences with dealers and the garage down the road as well. Truth is far ownership just costs.

We have neighbors who like to buy German cars. And then not maintain them. At all.

They had a 740iL that at 3 years old, the doors squeaked like an old 💩-box when you opened them. They would drive them until they fell apart and then get a "new" one.

Wife likes Rover's. So we buy 2-3 year old CPO's with a 7-year warranty. Get rid of them at 6.5 years. :)
 
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diamond.g

macrumors G4
Mar 20, 2007
11,478
2,701
OBX
And the popo sit right at the top of the big hill coming out of NC on I-77. Speed limit in NC is 70, but in VA on that section it is 65. People driving with their CC set at 77 or so get popped all day long.

In WV, there are no points for 10 over on a 4-lane. So most people drive 75-78.

Back when I first got married in the early 90's, we needed to go to Atlanta for a conference. Borrowed the parent's S-Class. Told the wife that once we passed Chattanooga on I-75, if we weren't doing 95+ we were a house. She didn't believe me........... :)
I was referring to the east coast of NC/VA. Lol.
 
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44267547

Cancelled
Jul 12, 2016
37,642
42,495
My local garage won’t even touch an automatic gearbox and when I asked around for servicing costs for this it was a similar answer. Less common I suppose. The move to more electronics on cars has been a problem for a while I think as most mechanics don’t seem to get involved in that side of things and direct you towards motor electricians which is a rather expensive service, especially if there is fault finding to do. Right now no garages within a 45 mile radius of me will repair EV’s. A guy I know had a Hyundai Ioniq and had to drive to Bristol for a fault which is an hour away, thankfully the car was drive-able. Still a long way to go to adapt to this new phase in motoring I think.
Not only that, but a lot of third party body repair shops for physical damage, won’t even look at electric vehicles for repair estimates, because they have such specific parts that they don’t have access to and/or have such limited availability, which means that the EV has to go through direct to a dealership for all accountability.

So the trade-off when owning an electric vehicle, there is a cost benefit, but there’s also the limitations of ownership of repairs and body work. Because we’re at a point of infancy point with these EV’s, the infrastructure and network of dealership training/repairs has to grow in order for consumers to mass adopt, with more tolerable price points for the middle-class/entry level consumer.
 

Tagbert

macrumors 603
Jun 22, 2011
6,268
7,291
Seattle
We all know car batteries won't last much longer than laptop batteries do (5ish years)
If you mean the lead-acid batteries in ICEV, then maybe but that is certainly not true of EV batteries. Other than the first gen Leafs without battery management, current battery designs have been lasting at least 8-10 years for most EVs and likely longer. Some of the newer designs like LFP will probably last even longer. Battery tech is a hot research area a the upcoming chemistries may be able to reach 20+ years and will be using little to no cobalt and similar conflict minerals.
 

960design

macrumors 68040
Apr 17, 2012
3,797
1,678
Destin, FL
I went to purchase a new Cadillac last month but the dealership, whom I have used for every oil change and warranty repair, apparently did not want to sell one to me. I walked in requesting they order the following:

While I was not happy about paying MSRP, I thought I understood the market and was willing to pay it with no questions asked. They kindly had the paperwork ready for me to sign, with the little "market value" addition of $15,000. So about $81,000 out the door. I kindly said "No thank you" and left. I called about 12 other Cadillac dealerships within 500 miles of my home and none would order the car at MSRP.

I ordered a Tesla last month. So I'll be joining the EV fanboy club sooner than expected. Test drove one last week and it drove very nicely. We will see if I miss anything, like oil changes, transmission fluid changes, brake pads, trans axel oil, fueling at the gas station, et cetera.
 

960design

macrumors 68040
Apr 17, 2012
3,797
1,678
Destin, FL
That's absolutely and completely false. They already last 100s of thousands of miles and will only get better.

As for car repair shops, new cars are already highly computerized and require specialized knowledge. EVs don't change anything there.
Tesla Model 3 Long Range warranty: https://www.tesla.com/model3
  • Warranty
    Basic Vehicle - 4 years or 50,000 mi, whichever comes first
    Battery & Drive Unit - 8 years or 120,000 mi, whichever comes first
The Standard Range gets only 100,000 on battery and drive unit.
The Model S & X get 150,000 on battery and drive unit.
 
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AlaskaMoose

macrumors 68040
Apr 26, 2008
3,594
13,436
Alaska
From my understanding, a lot of repairs with EV’s, the majority of trouble faults can be diagnosed through code & software fluency pinpointing to the specific problem, but it’s necessary to have technician(s) who are versed in electrical tracing and schematic readouts.

Also, I think the bigger challenge isn’t necessarily the lack of mechanics, because if you think about it, EV manufacturers have policy and procedure with updated training for these technicians to be able to diagnose and work on EV vehicles. I suspect the bigger challenge is to actually locate a technician who is intelligent and properly trained to competently understand and diagnose the troubleshooting effectively in a reasonable timeframe. It’s a totally different spectrum from working on an internal combustion engine when dealing with code/formulas and electrical read outs with EV’s. The level education to me seems to be the biggest hurdle versus training ‘every technician’ a dealership has, when only a specific few techs might be able to actually grasp the material and effectively solve the problem. It’s a spectrum that every dealership has some technicians who are just more skilled than others, but it’s not really uniform where they all share the same strengths.
Electrical malfunctions apply to both EV's and vehicles with internal combustion engines alike. The only difference is that the mechanic who works with vehicles that have internal combustion engines has to know about both the engine and the electrical systems, while the mechanic who works with EV's alone does not need to know about internal combustion engines. In fact, the "troubleshooter" who connects the appropriate scanner or computer to the vehicle looks for and records malfunction codes, and in some shops that person is often not the one who is performing the repairs. Just look at the sophisticated electronics used in F1 vehicles where a lot of the systems are used on both EWV's and F1 cars (ABS, traction/stability, TPM, ECU, regenerative braking, and so on).

The main difference: EV motors are powered by electricity (battery), ICE-vehicle engines are powered by fuel. The bodies, tires, brakes, windows, windshield, doors, etc., function in similar ways.
 
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AlaskaMoose

macrumors 68040
Apr 26, 2008
3,594
13,436
Alaska
I understand why (some) EVs come with big power (fights the golf cart mentality). Really having an EV having lots of power does come at a cost, but it isn't as bad as petrol vehicles.
In order to increase an EV's HP the battery has to be more dense (more cells added), which in turn increases the battery dimensions, and weight. The battery alone can weight from 900 pounds (very small EV) to perhaps 1,800 pounds ( search for, Tesla battery weights). There are very powerful engines, some which may be heavy, but one gallon of gasoline weights around 6 pounds. It means that an ICE automobile can be lighter than a dimensionally similar EV, and still double the driving range. Why? Because gasoline is very dense compared to electricity. This is the primary reason why fuel is used in aircraft instead of batteries (less bulk and weight, plus long travel ranges without refueling). A very simple example: compare the drive range of an electric Mini Cooper to an ICE mini cooper. Both weight about the same, but the ICE one has a long road-drive range.

A F1 automobile is a clear example of lightness and power, since the 6-cylinder engines used produce in excess of 1,000 HP and the vehicle's weight is under 1,700 pounds.

The main advantage of and EV relates to air emissions.
 
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zagato27

macrumors 68000
Aug 10, 2003
1,541
3,653
The Hill
In order to increase an EV's HP the battery has to be more dense (more cells added), which in turn increases the battery dimensions, and weight. The battery alone can weight from 900 pounds (very small EV) to perhaps 1,800 pounds ( search for, Tesla battery weights). There are very powerful engines, some which may be heavy, but one gallon of gasoline weights around 6 pounds. It means that an ICE automobile can be lighter than a dimensionally similar EV, and still double the driving range. Why? Because gasoline is very dense compared to electricity. This is the primary reason why fuel is used in aircraft instead of batteries (less bulk and weight, plus long travel ranges without refueling). A very simple example: compare the drive range of an electric Mini Cooper to an ICE mini cooper. Both weight about the same, but the ICE one has a long road-drive range.

A F1 automobile is a clear example of lightness and power, since the 6-cylinder engines used produce in excess of 1,000 HP and the vehicle's weight is under 1,700 pounds.

The main advantage of and EV relates to air emissions.
Yes and no. EV's are heavy compared to ICE cars, agree. As to HP, well Tesla Model S Plaid with 3 electric motors produces around 1100 HP and I believe Lucid Air is either equal to or a smidge better in the HP department. Understand that those ferocious F1 cars produce that HP using very special fuel and also operate at outrageous RPM. Pulling smoothly away from a stop light probably isn't their forte. Now as to range, ie efficiency between EV and ICE you have to look at apples to apples sort of. The EV may not be the exact twin of the ICE vehicle as manufacturers go to great length's to "tune" them for aero and tires etc but "dimensionally similiar" may be more akin to "class" of vehicle. Here's an example from CARGLANCER regarding the efficiency of EV vs ICE. An ICE vehicle may be 40% efficient compared to an EV that are close to 90% (remember they do get a return from regen braking).

"According to a GGE formula (‘gasoline gallon equivalent’), one Imperial gallon of gasoline equates to about 40 kWh of electricity. The fuel consumption of a car with a 1.5-liter gasoline engine is approximately 55 miles per gallon, so, 1.6 gallons should be enough to cover the distance of 88 miles.

An electric car of a similar size with a 64-kWh battery pack (useable charge) consumes roughly the same amount of energy as 1.6 gallons of gasoline. So, this vehicle with this battery capacity can travel nearly 236 miles at a realistic 3.7 mi/kWh, and its energy efficiency figure is 64 kWh : 236 miles = 0.271 kWh/mile.

88 miles against 236 miles is a significant difference of 148 miles becoming possible due to the efficiency of the electric powertrain and energy recovery through regenerative braking."

Interesting stuff.
 

eddjedi

macrumors 6502a
Sep 7, 2011
632
853
That's absolutely and completely false. They already last 100s of thousands of miles and will only get better.
Has ANY Tesla done hundreds of thousands of miles on the original batteries yet? Their own warranty covers 70% capacity over 8 years (so in line with most laptop/phone batteries as I stated.) The Model S is only 10 years old, so there is no data to support claims they will last longer yet...
 

diamond.g

macrumors G4
Mar 20, 2007
11,478
2,701
OBX
Has ANY Tesla done hundreds of thousands of miles on the original batteries yet? Their own warranty covers 70% capacity over 8 years (so in line with most laptop/phone batteries as I stated.) The Model S is only 10 years old, so there is no data to support claims they will last longer yet...
There are Tesla Roadsters still around.

EDIT: you added context, lol.
 
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