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eddjedi

macrumors 6502a
Sep 7, 2011
632
853
EDIT: you added context, lol.
Yes sorry I thought I should, but even the oldest Tesla on the planet (or in space!) is only 14 years old, so it's not like we have decades of data to trawl through. The vast majority of Tesla's on the road are under 5 years old, and from every article I've seen so far the Tesla's with 100k+ miles on them have had numerous battery replacements.
 

quagmire

macrumors 604
Apr 19, 2004
6,984
2,488
Yes sorry I thought I should, but even the oldest Tesla on the planet (or in space!) is only 14 years old, so it's not like we have decades of data to trawl through. The vast majority of Tesla's on the road are under 5 years old, and from every article I've seen so far the Tesla's with 100k+ miles on them have had numerous battery replacements.

Those articles are probably referring to the 12V battery, not the main high volt drive battery.
 
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diamond.g

macrumors G4
Mar 20, 2007
11,407
2,641
OBX
Yes sorry I thought I should, but even the oldest Tesla on the planet (or in space!) is only 14 years old, so it's not like we have decades of data to trawl through. The vast majority of Tesla's on the road are under 5 years old, and from every article I've seen so far the Tesla's with 100k+ miles on them have had numerous battery replacements.

Those articles are probably referring to the 12V battery, not the main high volt drive battery.
High voltage pack replacements are "uncommon". I think Fred from electrek has (had) the highest mileage Model X with something like 400k miles. I think his pack had been replaced twice though. I can't seem to find the articles in Electrek about it.

Found it: https://electrek.co/2020/06/06/tesla-battery-degradation-replacement/
 
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VictorTango777

macrumors 6502a
Oct 28, 2017
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AlaskaMoose

macrumors 68040
Apr 26, 2008
3,585
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Alaska
Yes and no. EV's are heavy compared to ICE cars, agree. As to HP, well Tesla Model S Plaid with 3 electric motors produces around 1100 HP and I believe Lucid Air is either equal to or a smidge better in the HP department. Understand that those ferocious F1 cars produce that HP using very special fuel and also operate at outrageous RPM. Pulling smoothly away from a stop light probably isn't their forte. Now as to range, ie efficiency between EV and ICE you have to look at apples to apples sort of. The EV may not be the exact twin of the ICE vehicle as manufacturers go to great length's to "tune" them for aero and tires etc but "dimensionally similiar" may be more akin to "class" of vehicle. Here's an example from CARGLANCER regarding the efficiency of EV vs ICE. An ICE vehicle may be 40% efficient compared to an EV that are close to 90% (remember they do get a return from regen braking).

"According to a GGE formula (‘gasoline gallon equivalent’), one Imperial gallon of gasoline equates to about 40 kWh of electricity. The fuel consumption of a car with a 1.5-liter gasoline engine is approximately 55 miles per gallon, so, 1.6 gallons should be enough to cover the distance of 88 miles.

An electric car of a similar size with a 64-kWh battery pack (useable charge) consumes roughly the same amount of energy as 1.6 gallons of gasoline. So, this vehicle with this battery capacity can travel nearly 236 miles at a realistic 3.7 mi/kWh, and its energy efficiency figure is 64 kWh : 236 miles = 0.271 kWh/mile.

88 miles against 236 miles is a significant difference of 148 miles becoming possible due to the efficiency of the electric powertrain and energy recovery through regenerative braking."

Interesting stuff.
All the technicalities aside, I will put it in simple terms: compare the road-drive range of the 2022 eMini Cooper hardtop to the 2022 ICE Mini Cooper hardtop. These two vehicles are nearly identical. The only way possible for the electric Mini to double its drive range is by doubling its battery capacity, and this in turn will increase the battery's weight twofold. It also means that the new driving range can only be accomplished on a flat road since the motor is propelling a heavier vehicle. This is similar to loading your vehicle with passengers (carrying more weight).

You can also compare the drive ranges of hybrid/EV of any of the automobile brands (Honda, Toyota, and so on). You will notice that hybrid automobiles have longer drive ranges than pure EVs.

At the present time, and probably decades into the future, there isn't a way for electricity to reach the density of fuel. Nor for fuel to approach the density of uranium (for example).
 
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Herdfan

macrumors 65816
Apr 11, 2011
1,350
7,898
I went to purchase a new Cadillac last month

While I was not happy about paying MSRP, I thought I understood the market and was willing to pay it with no questions asked. They kindly had the paperwork ready for me to sign, with the little "market value" addition of $15,000.

Last spring I was in the market for a new truck. My previous 5 trucks had been 4 Ford Superduty's with an F-150 throw in the mix for some reason I can't explain :eek:. I had been checking inventory on the Ford site a couple of times a week hoping something would show up.

But the GMC dealers seemed to have Denali HD's available to sell. Now the Denali HD is already $5K or so pricier than a Ford Lariat and I was OK with it as it does have more options. But every GMC dealer was adding an additional $3-5K Market Adjustment. Nope, I'm out. Not going to pay $8-10K more for a truck for options I won't miss and profit for the dealer.

I finally found a Ford that had been ordered for a client, but that client backed out when it came in so I was lucky enough to be the one who got it.

I did pay MSRP ($78K), but they also gave me $6K more for my trade than I had in my mind that I wanted. So it was kind of a wash.

So, yeah I get walking.
 
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zagato27

macrumors 68000
Aug 10, 2003
1,541
3,653
The Hill
All the technicalities aside, I will put it in simple terms: compare the road-drive range of the 2022 eMini Cooper hardtop to the 2022 ICE Mini Cooper hardtop. These two vehicles are nearly identical. The only way possible for the electric Mini to double its drive range is by doubling its battery capacity, and this in turn will increase the battery's weight twofold. It also means that the new driving range can only be accomplished on a flat road since the motor is propelling a heavier vehicle. This is similar to loading your vehicle with passengers (carrying more weight).

You can also compare the drive ranges of hybrid/EV of any of the automobile brands (Honda, Toyota, and so on). You will notice that hybrid automobiles have longer drive ranges than pure EVs.

At the present time, and probably decades into the future, there isn't a way for electricity to reach the density of fuel. Nor for fuel to approach the density of uranium (for example).
Range wise you are correct. The Mini EV has a tiny battery, 28.9kwh, whilst the mini ICE has a 44l tank. So, I agree that you can go farther with the ICE model but using the GGE (gasoline gallon equivalent) 1 imperial gallon equals 40kwh the EV mini seems to be getting 110 miles (Car&Driver review) to what amounts to less than a gallon of fuel. Efficiency vs range and also refueling time vs recharging time. If you want range I believe that the Tesla Model S is somewhere around 400 miles and the Lucid is around 500 miles. Both are hideously expensive but they do have the range. Don't know about you but my bladder isn't rated at 400 miles more importantly my wife's bladder isn't either. Cheers
 
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Apple fanboy

macrumors Ivy Bridge
Feb 21, 2012
56,912
55,850
Behind the Lens, UK
All the technicalities aside, I will put it in simple terms: compare the road-drive range of the 2022 eMini Cooper hardtop to the 2022 ICE Mini Cooper hardtop. These two vehicles are nearly identical. The only way possible for the electric Mini to double its drive range is by doubling its battery capacity, and this in turn will increase the battery's weight twofold. It also means that the new driving range can only be accomplished on a flat road since the motor is propelling a heavier vehicle. This is similar to loading your vehicle with passengers (carrying more weight).

You can also compare the drive ranges of hybrid/EV of any of the automobile brands (Honda, Toyota, and so on). You will notice that hybrid automobiles have longer drive ranges than pure EVs.

At the present time, and probably decades into the future, there isn't a way for electricity to reach the density of fuel. Nor for fuel to approach the density of uranium (for example).
But if you plan to drive the Mini Cooper ICE with a full tank until empty without a stop that would be an unusual scenario.
Normally you’d expect to drive much shorter journeys. Of course occasionally you will need to drive longer. But a comfort break and a quick bite to eat, and your good for another 100 miles or so.
 
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Apple fanboy

macrumors Ivy Bridge
Feb 21, 2012
56,912
55,850
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Range wise you are correct. The Mini EV has a tiny battery, 28.9kwh, whilst the mini ICE has a 44l tank. So, I agree that you can go farther with the ICE model but using the GGE (gasoline gallon equivalent) 1 imperial gallon equals 40kwh the EV mini seems to be getting 110 miles (Car&Driver review) to what amounts to less than a gallon of fuel. Efficiency vs range and also refueling time vs recharging time. If you want range I believe that the Tesla Model S is somewhere around 400 miles and the Lucid is around 500 miles. Both are hideously expensive but they do have the range. Don't know about you but my bladder isn't rated at 400 miles more importantly my wife's bladder isn't either. Cheers
That doesn’t get better with age does it?

Of course their are plenty of options between the mini and a Tesla that suit a wider range of needs and pockets.
 
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The-Real-Deal82

macrumors P6
Jan 17, 2013
17,297
25,438
Wales, United Kingdom
But if you plan to drive the Mini Cooper ICE with a full tank until empty without a stop that would be an unusual scenario.
Normally you’d expect to drive much shorter journeys. Of course occasionally you will need to drive longer. But a comfort break and a quick bite to eat, and your good for another 100 miles or so.

Can that be achieved in a 10-15 minute stop? I keep hearing of 1 hour charge times on motorway services.
 

Apple fanboy

macrumors Ivy Bridge
Feb 21, 2012
56,912
55,850
Behind the Lens, UK
Can that be achieved in a 10-15 minute stop? I keep hearing of 1 hour charge times on motorway services.
Depends on the car and size of battery. 25-30 minutes for example would be what I would do in the i3. But it’s a lightweight EV compared to others. Some charge quicker. It’s not as quick as filling up with petrol, but that’s the compromise. My long journeys are very infrequent.
 

AlaskaMoose

macrumors 68040
Apr 26, 2008
3,585
13,429
Alaska
But if you plan to drive the Mini Cooper ICE with a full tank until empty without a stop that would be an unusual scenario.
Normally you’d expect to drive much shorter journeys. Of course occasionally you will need to drive longer. But a comfort break and a quick bite to eat, and your good for another 100 miles or so.
Because fuel is so dense compared to the amount of electrical energy that can be packed in battery, the drive range of the internal combustion Mini Cooper is greater than the Electric Mini Cooper. This has nothing to do with having to take a break or not, but travel pre-planning. If I need to drive the eMini non-stop 150 miles away, then I have to stop along the way and recharge the battery, but if I drive the ICE Mini I can refuel at the destination point. A vehicle's drive range is one of the most important factors taken into consideration by most consumers.

In Alaska there isn't an electrical infrastructure for EV charging. There are some chargers in Anchorage Alaska where the weather is milder than Fairbanks, and I believe there is a fast charger between Anchorage and Fairbanks (perhaps 200 miles away from each city). Now, I can drive my Toyota Corolla from Fairbanks to Anchorage without having to refuel along the way. I could do the same if driving my son's Toyota Prius.
 
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Apple fanboy

macrumors Ivy Bridge
Feb 21, 2012
56,912
55,850
Behind the Lens, UK
Because fuel is so dense compared to the amount of electrical energy that can be packed in battery, the drive range of the internal combustion Mini Cooper is greater than the Electric Mini Cooper. This has nothing to do with having to take a break or not, but travel pre-planning. If I need to drive the eMini non-stop 150 miles away, then I have to stop along the way and recharge the battery, but if I drive the ICE Mini I can refuel at the destination point. A vehicle's drive range is one of the most important factors taken into consideration by most consumers.

In Alaska there isn't an electrical infrastructure for EV charging. There are some chargers in Anchorage Alaska where the weather is milder than Fairbanks, and I believe there is a fast charger between Anchorage and Fairbanks (perhaps 200 miles away from each city). Now, I can drive my Toyota Corolla from Fairbanks to Anchorage without having to refuel along the way. I could do the same if driving my son's Toyota Prius.
This is true. EV in colder climates is going to be a challenge (as you definitely won’t get any advertised range), as will anyone owning an EV where the charging infrastructure isn’t there.
But for most people there are EV options if you can find the funding to buy the thing in the first place. But EV’s will be the future for many and is the fastest growing car segment here anyway.
All good for the planet.
 
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The-Real-Deal82

macrumors P6
Jan 17, 2013
17,297
25,438
Wales, United Kingdom
This is true. EV in colder climates is going to be a challenge (as you definitely won’t get any advertised range), as will anyone owning an EV where the charging infrastructure isn’t there.
But for most people there are EV options if you can find the funding to buy the thing in the first place. But EV’s will be the future for many and is the fastest growing car segment here anyway.
All good for the planet.

I think the best option for me is to wait until 2030 where hopefully the technology, cost and infrastructure has improved. You guys can test them for now and help get this sector better lol. It’s just not practical enough for me yet unfortunately.
 
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Apple fanboy

macrumors Ivy Bridge
Feb 21, 2012
56,912
55,850
Behind the Lens, UK
I think the best option for me is to wait until 2030 where hopefully the technology, cost and infrastructure has improved. You guys can test them for now and help get this sector better lol. It’s just not practical enough for me yet unfortunately.
It is getting better everyday. By 2030 I expect things to be EV’s are the norm. My concern is what effect that will have on the resale value of ICE cars.
 

GoetzPhil

macrumors member
Dec 30, 2019
53
30
I prefer the SUPREMO buggy style ones - way cheaper and enough for the philippines.
The 4 seater is around 3000 US$ and the 6 seater under 4000US$.
Add a tarpaulin to the sides to protect yourself from rain.
Add a solar panel on the roof (600W) and a hybrid inverter - to charge with sun and grid too.
 

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AlaskaMoose

macrumors 68040
Apr 26, 2008
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This is true. EV in colder climates is going to be a challenge (as you definitely won’t get any advertised range), as will anyone owning an EV where the charging infrastructure isn’t there.
But for most people there are EV options if you can find the funding to buy the thing in the first place. But EV’s will be the future for many and is the fastest growing car segment here anyway.
All good for the planet.
Yes, EVs are good for the planet once you start driving it (no emissions). Now, the carbon footprint for building an EV is as high (if not higher) than the one for building an ICE automobile. The EV of the far future would be a hybrid that can generate enough electricity to keep a relatively small battery charged 100%, without producing any air emissions. In this case the traction battery would only be needed for accessory power, or for momentary traction power, and the generator power for traction. Another option would be to have an ICE that does not emit hazardous gasses, or one where the gases are filtered to trap the hazardous ones. I know that my imagination is at play here, but it's true that a clean-burning ICE is a possibility.

Yes, I am dreaming :)
 
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VictorTango777

macrumors 6502a
Oct 28, 2017
893
1,634
Yes, EVs are good for the planet once you start driving it (no emissions). Now, the carbon footprint for building an EV is as high (if not higher) than the one for building an ICE automobile. The EV of the far future would be a hybrid that can generate enough electricity to keep a relatively small battery charged 100%, without producing any air emissions. In this case the traction battery would only be needed for accessory power, or for momentary traction power, and the generator power for traction. Another option would be to have an ICE that does not emit hazardous gasses, or one where the gases are filtered to trap the hazardous ones. I know that my imagination is at play here, but it's true that a clean-burning ICE is a possibility.

Yes, I am dreaming :)
Mercedes GLC F-Cell



"The energy in 2.2 pounds (1 kilogram) of hydrogen gas is about the same as the energy in 1 gallon (6.2 pounds, 2.8 kilograms) of gasoline"

Hydrogen refueling more closely resembles the gas station experience. With an EV charging cable, you don't see or feel electrons coming out the connector. A hydrogen fueling station provides almost the same manly, phallic experience of squirting foreign matter into a female receptacle, which may help some guys feel more secure about their manhood when driving a clean energy vehicle. Another manly feature of fuel cell vehicles is that they produce water which drips onto the road, allowing drivers to mark their territory like petrol cars that spew fumes into the air.
 
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AlaskaMoose

macrumors 68040
Apr 26, 2008
3,585
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Alaska
Mercedes GLC F-Cell



"The energy in 2.2 pounds (1 kilogram) of hydrogen gas is about the same as the energy in 1 gallon (6.2 pounds, 2.8 kilograms) of gasoline"

Hydrogen refueling more closely resembles the gas station experience. With an EV charging cable, you don't see or feel electrons coming out the connector. A hydrogen fueling station provides almost the same phallic experience of squirting foreign matter into a female receptacle, except the hydrogen fuel is in gaseous form rather than a fluid.
Sounds interesting! I believe that Toyota is working on a similar design. There have been reports about a clean burning internal combustion engine being developed in Spain. The aviation industries are also looking into cleaner burning fuels, since batteries are too heavy and would take too much cargo space. In reality the Lithium-Ion batteries of today take a lot of resources and labor hours to build.
 
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Apple fanboy

macrumors Ivy Bridge
Feb 21, 2012
56,912
55,850
Behind the Lens, UK
Yes, EVs are good for the planet once you start driving it (no emissions). Now, the carbon footprint for building an EV is as high (if not higher) than the one for building an ICE automobile. The EV of the far future would be a hybrid that can generate enough electricity to keep a relatively small battery charged 100%, without producing any air emissions. In this case the traction battery would only be needed for accessory power, or for momentary traction power, and the generator power for traction. Another option would be to have an ICE that does not emit hazardous gasses, or one where the gases are filtered to trap the hazardous ones. I know that my imagination is at play here, but it's true that a clean-burning ICE is a possibility.

Yes, I am dreaming :)
A recent study said that the carbon footprint is neutralised after two years of ownership, so that is better than nothing. But then the carbon footprint for building ICE cars varies a lot. The larger the car the higher it is. That’s before you start putting fuel in it of course.
 
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davegoody

macrumors 6502
Apr 9, 2003
375
95
Nottingham, England.
I am SOOOOO ready to get an EV.
And while I looked at others, it is very hard to beat a Tesla.
Just the "gimmicks" alone are a attractive (and I am not a gimmick guy).
It is so UN-like a car.

I am not going in blind, Engineering Explained has great critical videos on his experience with EV's.
He does a good job of a neutral review of the basic, and is critical of somethings, but so far not enough salt to discount a Tesla.

In past I was considering a Leaf and a Volt (and other plug-in). Ironically Prius Plugin is not on lots in Texas, dealer does not say why.
And I do not go to country like I used to, so almost all in a (very big) city.

What you fine folks think?
As an Apple fan forever, since the Mac Plus, I have always loved Tech. I really love Tesla, and aspired to one for a long, long time. Made the mistake to take one for a test drive. This was the result. Had it nearly a year (and I normally get fed up with a car after 6 months), and it's just superb in every way.
 

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decafjava

macrumors 603
Feb 7, 2011
5,502
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Geneva
This is all fascinating stuff - still looking forward to a DeLorean that can fly, time travel and be fueled by beer and banana peels.
 

44267547

Cancelled
Jul 12, 2016
37,642
42,494
This is all fascinating stuff - still looking forward to a DeLorean that can fly, time travel and be fueled by beer and banana peels.
Your timing is impeccable. Literally. Just as DeLorean is setting to release more details on their full EV.

Definitely fascinating and something to keep eyes on.

 
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Apleeseed84

macrumors 6502a
Oct 22, 2020
901
644
I remember when I was shopping around for prices for electrics last year and was like that’s expensive, but now when I checked the prices again a couple of days ago I almost had a heart attack, not only did they raise the prices by 20k, it’s almost impossible to get one now even if I wanted to. Just my luck.
 
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