Who is the Mac Pro going to be for?

[AidenShaw]

So basically this HP Z8 with Apple aesthetic

It would be innovative for Apple to make two sizes - a single socket midi-tower with max 512 GiB of RAM (Z4 or Z6, or in between) , and a dual-socket maxi-tower with max 3 TiB of RAM (lots of RAM and PCIe slots and internal drive bays).

The cheese grater is huge on the outside, but is woefully small on the inside. (only four PCIe slots, only four HDD bays, an absurd memory configuration (¿¿ Four DIMM slots on a CPU with three memory channels ??).) Have four HDD bays in the small one, and eight HDD bays in the big one. Get innovative with the HDD bays, so that each bay could hold different carriers with:

• one 3.5" SATA or SAS drive (14 TB per bay today)
• two 2.5" SATA 9mm SSD drives
• six to eight M.2 NVMe drives

(And don't whine about PCIe lanes, that's why PLX makes PCIe switches.)

And hopefully they'll keep the height at 17.5" or so to let both of them fit in a 19" rack (450mm / 17.7 inches max).

 

[JesterJJZ]

^^^ Yeah I dream too.

 

[SoyCapitanSoyCapitan]

Yeah backlit external Keyboard when. My eyes are dying in the dark.

 

[jscipione]

The cheese grater is huge on the outside, but is woefully small on the inside. (only four PCIe slots, only four HDD bays, an absurd memory configuration (¿¿ Four DIMM slots on a CPU with three memory channels ??).)

You are missing the point of the cheesegrater design which was to allow for separate air channels for the power supply, hard drives, pcie cards, and processor/ram tray each in its own layer. Everything is easily accessible and most components can be replaced with minimal tools. The cheesegrater cable manages better than just about any other computer even HP Z-series.

Now the components are all out this of date at this point but it goes to show that Apple at one time could build a workstation. They made some mistakes with the Trashcan but they know that now and they are almost ready to come out with their new version.

"We said: ‘a lot of this storage can be achieved with very high performance with Thunderbolt. So we built a design in part around that assumption, as well. Some of the pro community has been sort of moving that direction, but we had certainly in mind the need for expandability. If you wanted a great RAID solution in there, it probably made a lot more sense to put it outside the box than actually be constrained within the physical enclosure that contained the CPU. So, I think we went into it with some interesting ideas, and not all of them paid off." [0]

Let's see what the boys come up. A storage solution of some kind other than external TB would be nice.

[0] https://techcrunch.com/2017/04/06/t...-john-ternus-on-the-state-of-apples-pro-macs/

Yeah backlit external Keyboard when. My eyes are dying in the dark.

http://matias.ca/aluminum/backlit/

 

[partsofspeech]

It would be for someone like me who tries to explore new horizon of creativity and business even though at the moment I use my computer much less than my iPad Pro. OP’s question is similar to whom atom smasher, Hubble telescope, or Mars probe is for. Practicality says no one needs those things, but once a while we should ignore practicality.

This post is rather a self talk than a response. Patiently waiting for June WWDC.

 

[SoyCapitanSoyCapitan]

You are missing the point of the cheesegrater design which was to allow for separate air channels for the power supply, hard drives, pcie cards, and processor/ram tray each in its own layer. Everything is easily accessible and most components can be replaced with minimal tools. The cheesegrater cable manages better than just about any other computer even HP Z-series.

Now the components are all out this of date at this point but it goes to show that Apple at one time could build a workstation. They made some mistakes with the Trashcan but they know that now and they are almost ready to come out with their new version.

"We said: ‘a lot of this storage can be achieved with very high performance with Thunderbolt. So we built a design in part around that assumption, as well. Some of the pro community has been sort of moving that direction, but we had certainly in mind the need for expandability. If you wanted a great RAID solution in there, it probably made a lot more sense to put it outside the box than actually be constrained within the physical enclosure that contained the CPU. So, I think we went into it with some interesting ideas, and not all of them paid off." [0]

Let's see what the boys come up. A storage solution of some kind other than external TB would be nice.

[0] https://techcrunch.com/2017/04/06/t...-john-ternus-on-the-state-of-apples-pro-macs/



http://matias.ca/aluminum/backlit/

Too much light bleeding from edges of the keys.

 

[yurc]

Too much light bleeding from edges of the keys.

Previously was keeping my eyes from those keyboards but it also lacks F19 button which I'm often used for dialing my tools. Like people already hardwired with esc key on upper left side, I am already accustomed with upper right F19 keys since Apple introduce first wired aluminum keyboard with numeric pads.

That's why I'am still clinging with full sized Apple keyboard for a while.

 

[th0masp]

Admittedly, can’t completely tell by your description, but it seems you are talking about developers porting to iOS. I wasn’t clear, but I’m talking about iOS game developers.

They did make iOS games this way, our entire toolchain for engine, export, editors, etc was on Windows (and parts of it may have been on Linux). This was a console developer (Sony, Nintendo) originally and iOS developer later on. Admittedly I never had any insight into the iOS part myself beyond popping up in their team office for a chat now and then.
They were not an iOS-specific startup with a totally mac-centric way of working which is what you might be referring to.

Edit: This is also in line with a bunch of coders I know from previous workplaces who each have gone into developing their own iOS apps: the Mini was really popular with them. Apparently all they needed was an Apple machine to export to, with the actual development work all still done on their PCs.

 

[Nugget]

Still wouldn't run as well, and I got an 8700, gtx 1070, 16gb ram, 256 nvme, 4x4tb 7200 hdds, hot swappable hdd trays, mechanical keyboard, nice mouse, and fantastic I/O, for like £1,100.

How much did you pay for your 5K display and your OS license? If you’re going to compare your build against an iMac or iMac Pro you need to be honest and have a fair comparison.

As others have pointed out elsewhere in this thread, the iMac Pro and past Mac Pros have been quite price-competitive with equivalent offerings from other vendors like HP and Dell. Mac Pros do not cost “three times” what an HP workstation costs. It’s not a tricycle/Lamborghini difference. Not even remotely close to that.

It would be fantastic if you would acknowledge this point. Your tendency towards hyperbole makes your posts sound shrill and untethered from reality.

I’ve built gaming Windows machines using newegg and pcpartpicker. I know how that works. I’d never go that route for my business. If the 2019 Mac Pro turns out to be a disaster, I’ll be moving to an HP or a Dell workstation that will surely cost about the same or even more than what Apple’s solution would cost me. Price isn’t really a factor if you’re accurately cross-shopping.

As others mention, ECC memory is desirable in high memory machines or when your work is long-running jobs. Workstation class components make for more reliable machines that handle high usage better than the desktop class parts.

For work, I’ve been using Mac Pros since they were called PowerMacs. I’m currently using a trash can nMP and interested to see Apple’s vision materialize. I’m worried this might be the end of the road for me. The iMac Pro could work, but it would be a compromise. I don’t really want that display. HP or Dell are credible alternatives, although the OS swap would be annoying and I’d like to avoid it if I can. I’d be moving to Linux, not Windows, most likely.

 

[yurc]

How much did you pay for your 5K display and your OS license? If you’re going to compare your build against an iMac or iMac Pro you need to be honest and have a fair comparison.

As others have pointed out elsewhere in this thread, the iMac Pro and past Mac Pros have been quite price-competitive with equivalent offerings from other vendors like HP and Dell. Mac Pros do not cost “three times” what an HP workstation costs. It’s not a tricycle/Lamborghini difference. Not even remotely close to that.

If we talking about consumer grade computer, I think self built computer are more competitive than regular iMac, depending on individual purpose (I am talking from view of indie creator)

iMac cramped enclosure tends to overheat cpu under heavy load and will kick their fans like jet engine, only 27 inch offer user accessible memory slot, the rest was completely sealed. Buying from retailers is also PITA since their tends to carry Fusion / 5400 rpm spinners as default configuration, unless BTO directly from Apple with SSD only.

In the past my buddy iMac GPUs was burned (27 inch, 2011 model) causing loss of working hours. Sending back to Apple was hassle and need about 1-2 weeks depending damage. To add insult to injury what happened if this happen in country without actual Apple Store? (only retailers)

With DIY computers, when one components fails, just run at nearest PC store and replace them. No longer time waste

Not everyone need iMac 5K display, e.g music maker doesn't take advantages iMac DCI-P3 color space, coders who already had solid multi monitor setup, or digital artist who prefer clinging with their 94-98% Adobe RGB Cintiq Pro.

For current iMac Pro, their price is competitive then yes, I agree. They cannot be replicated in any custom specification from DIY side, similar grade Xeon W chips based workstation currently only available from HP / Dell but it not run OS X.

While Mac Pro doesn't cost three times from HP counterparts, they tend have higher specs and offer things which not available from Apple, e.g. actual workstation class GPU with certified drivers (Quadro/RIP FirePro/Radeon Pro) taking into consideration. Even on most powerful Mac we only have clocked down version AMD cards, unless you throw full fat desktop GPUs in older cheese grater pro or eGPU enclosure in newer TB-3 based Macs.

Not everyone in same boat like OP, so I'am quite understand his position. For 'Who' this Mac Pro?

1. Some pros might ditched old machines and simply buying new from Apple when they needs new Macs.
2. Some pros are prefer have greater control of their machine while simply replace /upgrade hardware their needs.

Folks in number 1 category will bring iMac Pro to their studios, folks in 2 category mostly wants updated version of cheese grater. 5,1 was proof from decade ago: upgradeability was able to keep computer live longer and even compete with modern Macs in some aspect. But Tim doesn't hear

Just my 2c.

 

[k2focus]

How much did you pay for your 5K display and your OS license? If you’re going to compare your build against an iMac or iMac Pro you need to be honest and have a fair comparison.

As others have pointed out elsewhere in this thread, the iMac Pro and past Mac Pros have been quite price-competitive with equivalent offerings from other vendors like HP and Dell. Mac Pros do not cost “three times” what an HP workstation costs. It’s not a tricycle/Lamborghini difference. Not even remotely close to that.

It would be fantastic if you would acknowledge this point. Your tendency towards hyperbole makes your posts sound shrill and untethered from reality.

I’ve built gaming Windows machines using newegg and pcpartpicker. I know how that works. I’d never go that route for my business. If the 2019 Mac Pro turns out to be a disaster, I’ll be moving to an HP or a Dell workstation that will surely cost about the same or even more than what Apple’s solution would cost me. Price isn’t really a factor if you’re accurately cross-shopping.

As others mention, ECC memory is desirable in high memory machines or when your work is long-running jobs. Workstation class components make for more reliable machines that handle high usage better than the desktop class parts.

For work, I’ve been using Mac Pros since they were called PowerMacs. I’m currently using a trash can nMP and interested to see Apple’s vision materialize. I’m worried this might be the end of the road for me. The iMac Pro could work, but it would be a compromise. I don’t really want that display. HP or Dell are credible alternatives, although the OS swap would be annoying and I’d like to avoid it if I can. I’d be moving to Linux, not Windows, most likely.

I try and stay away from answering people who are emotional about the computer brand they love, so I'll give this one a pass.

 

[SoyCapitanSoyCapitan]

How much did you pay for your 5K display and your OS license? If you’re going to compare your build against an iMac or iMac Pro you need to be honest and have a fair comparison.

As others have pointed out elsewhere in this thread, the iMac Pro and past Mac Pros have been quite price-competitive with equivalent offerings from other vendors like HP and Dell. Mac Pros do not cost “three times” what an HP workstation costs. It’s not a tricycle/Lamborghini difference. Not even remotely close to that.

It would be fantastic if you would acknowledge this point. Your tendency towards hyperbole makes your posts sound shrill and untethered from reality.

I’ve built gaming Windows machines using newegg and pcpartpicker. I know how that works. I’d never go that route for my business. If the 2019 Mac Pro turns out to be a disaster, I’ll be moving to an HP or a Dell workstation that will surely cost about the same or even more than what Apple’s solution would cost me. Price isn’t really a factor if you’re accurately cross-shopping.

As others mention, ECC memory is desirable in high memory machines or when your work is long-running jobs. Workstation class components make for more reliable machines that handle high usage better than the desktop class parts.

For work, I’ve been using Mac Pros since they were called PowerMacs. I’m currently using a trash can nMP and interested to see Apple’s vision materialize. I’m worried this might be the end of the road for me. The iMac Pro could work, but it would be a compromise. I don’t really want that display. HP or Dell are credible alternatives, although the OS swap would be annoying and I’d like to avoid it if I can. I’d be moving to Linux, not Windows, most likely.

I don’t know of course which work you do but if you are in a creative media field like majority of Mac Pro users I can only wish you very good luck using Windows or Linux without Quick Look, thumbnail support for every media format, Finder color labels, easy color profiling, native HDR support etc. These are the things we macOS users live with. These extend the life of our machines and save use time and money. You can give an extra 5 Gigahertz to a PC but you will lose productive time not having the unique features of macOS.

 

[ActionableMango]

Previously was keeping my eyes from those keyboards but it also lacks F19 button which I'm often used for dialing my tools.

I see an F19 key on the full size wired illuminated model.

 

[Nugget]

I try and stay away from answering people who are emotional about the computer brand they love, so I'll give this one a pass.

What a tepid response. I have no idea why you've decided I am emotional about this issue. I'll take it as a win, since you avoided responding to my points.
[doublepost=1555451919][/doublepost]

I don’t know of course which work you do but if you are in a creative media field like majority of Mac Pro users I can only wish you very good luck using Windows or Linux without Quick Look, thumbnail support for every media format, Finder color labels, easy color profiling, native HDR support etc. These are the things we macOS users live with. These extend the life of our machines and save use time and money. You can give an extra 5 Gigahertz to a PC but you will lose productive time not having the unique features of macOS.

It would be a disappointing transition, but if Apple continue to neglect the pro market with their hardware offerings it's a decision we'll all end up having to make eventually. I'm hobbling along right now with my 5+ year old nMP and wishing I could buy something better and more competitive. At some point I'll have to look elsewhere to stay performant. Either that or give

 

[Flint Ironstag]

[delete]

 

[SoyCapitanSoyCapitan]

What a tepid response. I have no idea why you've decided I am emotional about this issue. I'll take it as a win, since you avoided responding to my points.
[doublepost=1555451919][/doublepost]

It would be a disappointing transition, but if Apple continue to neglect the pro market with their hardware offerings it's a decision we'll all end up having to make eventually. I'm hobbling along right now with my 5+ year old nMP and wishing I could buy something better and more competitive. At some point I'll have to look elsewhere to stay performant. Either that or give

They will address it of course. Shame to be late but the Xeons were late as was Vega and Navi. Even the mobile Intel chips are running way behind schedule.

 

[skippermonkey]

I want a new Mac Pro because I do CG work. If you're doing lookdev or rendering millions of polygons, you just need a machine that's just fast. Fast IO, fast screen redraw, fast memory, fast processors, fast GPU(s). I've stuck with Macs for about 30 years – my first device was a Powerbook Duo! I love the OS, but the hardware is seriously lagging compared to PCs with multiple Nvidia GPUs and huge, multicore/multithreaded processors. For me this is Apple's last roll of the dice. I'm excited to see what they've come up with and I hope it'll deliver the kind of power artists need for DCC work. If not then, I'd be kind of stupid not to consider a top-spec PC from the likes of HP or Strongbox.

 

[danwells]

Their target market is mainly video editors, with some photographers, musicians, etc. thrown in... Apple has never targeted data-heavy scientists, but various iterations of the Power Mac G5 and classic Mac Pro have attracted them (and Apple's not complaining about that).

They are interested in selling some to developers, especially iOS developers, but a lot of development work has moved to "lesser" Macs, because it's not all THAT processor and I/O intensive, especially compared to something like 8K video.

The high end of the 3D market (whether that is animation, CAD or anything else) has moved to Unix/Linux or Windows, often with the rendering machine separated from the desktop where the models are drawn - you might work on a Mac, a Z6 or anything else, with the heavy lifting being done on a rack of Linux boxes in the basement (or the cloud) where their fans don't bother anyone.

There is one specific market Apple doesn't want, and actually takes pains to exclude - gamers! From Apple's viewpoint, it makes sense. Gamers run hardware very close to the edge, they want maximum power (regardless of stability) for a minimum price, and concessions made to support them tend to make things less stable for anyone else.

Two major reasons Windows is less stable than MacOS are support for gaming hardware and, on the other end of the spectrum, support for really cheap commodity hardware. Both of these hardware types are much more difficult to support than a limited number of high-quality but relatively conservative configurations (Apple's stance).

Apple wants to be the computer equivalent of Mercedes-Benz or BMW - fast, reliable, premium-priced and repaired/upgraded mainly by the manufacturer. They have absolutely no interest in the hot-rod/boy racer gaming market, and will take pains to keep them out (you'll NEVER again see a high-power PCIe slot in any Mac - a gamer might toss his GeForce in there). They also have no interest in the Yugo market occupied by $300 laptops.

 

[beaker7]

Two major reasons Windows is less stable than MacOS are

It isn't though. Not at the workstation level.

 

[canopic]

I think it's still going to be just for Pros, same as the last audience, just with a better design concept. Yeah that audience has really shrunk and many have moved to Windows, so it's a tough one. I guess, maybe win them back?

And it's very likely not for people who want a "decent gaming PC" with up-gradable graphics card. It's going to be way too expensive for that, and possibly won't even have a swap-able graphics card. If you want that, Mac Mini + eGPU is your option, and it's kinda hot and throttles a bit for that purpose, so not ideal. Unless they do something unheard of like a "low spec" non-ECC ram "semi-pro" Pro model?? Doubt it though. I don't see them wanting to woo the PC gaming audience, it's an unappealing bootcamp audience who spend their money on discrete graphics cards and Steam.

My guess is that the Pro will be a slightly bigger Mac Mini type box, (I'm guessing taller with fancier cooling and heat pipes - so less prone to throttling or excessive heat). Doesn't include a real graphics chip. But has ECC RAM and a CPU that supports ECC ram (so an expensive Intel CPU minimum).

Then the modular aspect may be that it has it's own special "pro" eGPU box that the Mac Mini can sit on, connected to it with something fancier than thunderbolt 3 - OCuLink or maybe something proprietary. Perhaps that box is even big (deep) enough to even house a large up-gradable GPU of your choice. That's the dream really. Add two or three cards by stacking two or three boxes.

OR, the modular aspect will just be the standalone monitor, and we will get a non-upgradable, small, toaster-type box that's only easy for Apple to upgrade as in... upgrade the specs of every couple of years. Basically the current Mac Pro with one eGPU, a more boxy shape, and a matching monitor. Hope not!

 

[AidenShaw]

Two major reasons Windows is less stable than MacOS are

It isn't though. Not at the workstation level.

Thanks, danwells made a silly statement without any proof about stability.

If Windows 10 (or really any recent Windows version) is unstable, bad hardware is very often the problem. I have a Dell Precision workstation (with ECC memory) for my home system.

No problems for years, until it started to go unresponsive occasionally. Still running, but no video, no mouse, no ping. After power cycling to reboot, the event log was full of GPU restarts. Would run fine for a few days or weeks - then hang.

Since each time GPU restarts were associated with the hang - I decided to upgrade the GTX 960, and bought a Quadro P2000.

Fixed, the 960 was going bonkers - with the Quadro the uptime is currently a couple of months.

My Windows servers at work (which are mostly running the same code as other Windows versions) have uptimes that often hit a year or more.

 

[ssgbryan]

My Windows servers at work (which are mostly running the same code as other Windows versions) have uptimes that often hit a year or more.

That is truly sad.

25 years ago my OS/2 systems had uptimes measured in years.

 

[Nugget]

A long uptime is just an indicator of poor system administration. All I hear is "I have a machine with a year's worth of vulnerabilities and unpatched bugs."

Besides, there's probably still a NetWare 3.1 box out there that's been running flawlessly since 1991 which puts us all to shame.

 

[Jack Burton]

I suspect the new Mac Pro will be for people who run Final Cut Pro 7 and have a lot of money. IMO, it will be very expensive and over engineered, solving problems nobody really has. They say they are talking to pros while making the Mac Pro, but... we will see.

I also suspect Apple will still not target a midrange where many creative professionals sit. The 9900k in the 2019 iMac is a great processor for most things, and would suit many people in a lot of workflows. A normal sized, ATX tower with that processor and room for multiple M.2's and 2.5 inch sata drives and up to two full size, powerful GPUs would go a long way.

IMO, unless they bring nVidia back on board (even if only in eGPU form) by the Mac Pro release, they will permanently lose another segment of creative folks to Windows, and the favor of some of their biggest software developer stalwarts. The deprecation of Open GL and Open CL on Mac and the lack of CUDA is already a very bad sign for everything from After Effects to Blender.

I love my Mac so much. But darn it if Apple isn't making it hard to love them with the decisions they make.

 

[AidenShaw]

A long uptime is just an indicator of poor system administration. All I hear is "I have a machine with a year's worth of vulnerabilities and unpatched bugs."

Three points to consider:

• Real server operating systems can do a lot of updates without requiring reboots. In particular, most drivers and shared libraries can be updated on the fly.
• Servers are often minimally configured for their purposes. You don't have to worry about bugs in code that isn't even installed, or attacks on ports that aren't in use.
• Typically servers don't run web browsers, email, or allow user logins. Those attack vectors don't exist.

I do agree, however, that a workstation or laptop with a year of uptime is probably full of creepy-crawlies.