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pshufd

macrumors G4
Oct 24, 2013
10,145
14,572
New Hampshire
Sorry if this doesn’t have anything to do with this topic but I just want to understand something simple, ARM is owned by Apple or is it a company like intel that will just supply Apple with processors?

Arm Holdings (stylized as arm) is a semiconductor and software design company wholly owned by Japanese conglomerate SoftBank Group and its Vision Fund. With its global headquarters in Cambridgeshire, in the United Kingdom, and its US headquarters in San Jose, California,[3] its primary business is in the design of ARM processors (CPUs), although it also designs other chips; and software development tools under the DS-5, RealView and Keil brands, as well as systems and platforms, system-on-a-chip (SoC) infrastructure and software. As a "holding" company, it also holds shares of other companies. It is considered to be market dominant for processors in mobile phones (smartphones or otherwise), tablet computers and for chips in smart TVs and in total over 160 billion chips have been made for all kinds of devices based on designs from Arm (more than from any other company). The company is one of the best-known "Silicon Fen" companies.[9]

While ARM CPUs first appeared in the Acorn Archimedes, a desktop computer, today's systems include mostly embedded systems, including all types of phones. Systems, like iPhone and Android smartphones, frequently include many chips, from many different providers, that include one or more licensed Arm cores, in addition to those in the main Arm-based processor. Arm's core designs are also used in chips that support all the most common network-related technologies.

Processors based on designs licensed from Arm, or designed by licensees of one of the ARM instruction set architectures, are used in all classes of computing devices (including in space). Examples of use of those processors range from the world's smallest computer, to smartphones, laptops, servers and to the world's fastest supercomputer by several benchmarks included on the TOP500 list, including the most energy-efficient one on the list. Processors designed by Arm or by Arm licensees are used as microcontrollers in embedded systems, including real-time safety systems. Arm's Mali line of graphics processing units (GPU) is the third most popular GPU in mobile devices. A recent addition to their lineup are AI accelerator chips for neural network processing.

Arm's main CPU competitors in servers include IBM, Intel and AMD.[10] Intel competed with Arm-based chips in mobile, but Arm no longer has any competition in that space to speak of (however, vendors of actual Arm-based chips compete within that space). Arm's main GPU competitors include mobile GPUs from Imagination Technologies (PowerVR), Qualcomm (Adreno) and increasingly Nvidia and Intel. Despite competing within GPUs, Qualcomm and Nvidia have combined their GPUs with Arm-licensed CPUs.

Arm had a primary listing on the London Stock Exchange and was a constituent of the FTSE 100 Index. It also had a secondary listing on NASDAQ. However Japanese telecommunications company SoftBank Group made an agreed offer for Arm on 18 July 2016, subject to approval by Arm's shareholders, valuing the company at £23.4 billion (short scale).[11] The transaction was completed on 5 September 2016.[12][13]


-- Wikipedia
 
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Icaras

macrumors 603
Mar 18, 2008
6,344
3,394
Im not getting the MacBook but sign me up for the ARM iMac on day one! :p
 

cpnotebook80

macrumors 65816
Feb 4, 2007
1,228
550
Toronto
So how would the gpu work with the ARM? Will the gpu chips like 5600m be able to work with ARM machines. I did not see anywhere mention about gpu etc. I know the new ipad pros play games smoothly and at the keynote, they showed Adobe apps working nicely but wasnt sure if apple would be having their own gpu chips or still going with AMD etc.

I was going to return my mbp 16" and get the 5600m version but wasn't sure how useful down the road it would be esp the price and the news on ARM. I'm sure the 5500m is fine for now but it seems plans are stalled a bit on future proofing with these laptops from this year, especialy since we keep our laptops far longer. I still use my mbp 13" 2013 but its heating up too much now with my work-from-home multi tasking on it. Hence I got the mbp 16" and I use vmware for windows due to my job too.
 

davesavix

macrumors newbie
Jun 23, 2020
5
4
I like to game sometimes, so I will never never buy any ARM Macbook...the last PowerPCs were horrible and I was so happy when they switched to Intel CPUs!
Apple is making a big mistake, bye bye Apple, I'll keep my 16" Macbook Pro for some years and then unfortunately buy some probably crappy windows laptop, but still better than a f... ARM Macbook Pro... I hope Apple sells historically numbers, have fun playing crappy Apple Arcade
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someone mentioned them trying to lockdown downloads and buy everything through the Mac App Store.


Dear apple, I'm a lifelong user at age 38. If that happens, GO **** YOURSELF.


IMAGINE THAT!!?? same here, 38, probably future client of an Asus Zenbook
 

Zackmd1

macrumors 6502a
Oct 3, 2010
815
487
Maryland US
So how would the gpu work with the ARM? Will the gpu chips like 5600m be able to work with ARM machines. I did not see anywhere mention about gpu etc. I know the new ipad pros play games smoothly and at the keynote, they showed Adobe apps working nicely but wasnt sure if apple would be having their own gpu chips or still going with AMD etc.

I was going to return my mbp 16" and get the 5600m version but wasn't sure how useful down the road it would be esp the price and the news on ARM. I'm sure the 5500m is fine for now but it seems plans are stalled a bit on future proofing with these laptops from this year, especialy since we keep our laptops far longer. I still use my mbp 13" 2013 but its heating up too much now with my work-from-home multi tasking on it. Hence I got the mbp 16" and I use vmware for windows due to my job too.

As long as the arm chip has a pcie controller (guaranteed to be included), dGPUs and even eGPUs (assuming TB3 compatibility) will work exactly as they do with x86. The question is whether Apple will deem dGPUs as required if they can push their SOCs to the same performance levels. (The fact that the A12z was able to run tomb raider in emulation mode at 1080p with what looked like a decent frame rate is impressive for such a low power chip). I can certainly see AMD Navi graphics included in arm desktops and possibly high performance laptops such as the 16 inch.
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I like to game sometimes, so I will never never buy any ARM Macbook...the last PowerPCs were horrible and I was so happy when they switched to Intel CPUs!
Apple is making a big mistake, bye bye Apple, I'll keep my 16" Macbook Pro for some years and then unfortunately buy some probably crappy windows laptop, but still better than a f... ARM Macbook Pro... I hope Apple sells historically numbers, have fun playing crappy Apple Arcade
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IMAGINE THAT!!?? same here, 38, probably future client of an Asus Zenbook

They have already gone on record saying that would not be the case. They have no plans on locking down mac to mac apps store apps even on apple silicone.
 
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davesavix

macrumors newbie
Jun 23, 2020
5
4
As long as the arm chip has a pcie controller (guaranteed to be included), dGPUs and even eGPUs (assuming TB3 compatibility) will work exactly as they do with x86. The question is whether Apple will deem dGPUs as required if they can push their SOCs to the same performance levels. (The fact that the A12z was able to run tomb raider in emulation mode at 1080p with what looked like a decent frame rate is impressive for such a low power chip). I can certainly see AMD Navi graphics included in arm desktops and possibly high performance laptops such as the 16 inch.
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They have already gone on record saying that would not be the case. They have no plans on locking down mac to mac apps store apps even on apple silicone.

they also said that the Butterfly keyboard was "AMAZING" ;)

had to exchange 2 different laptops with butterfly keyboard due to malfunctioning keys
 
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UltimateSyn

macrumors 601
Mar 3, 2008
4,967
9,205
Massachusetts
I like to game sometimes, so I will never never buy any ARM Macbook...the last PowerPCs were horrible and I was so happy when they switched to Intel CPUs!
Apple is making a big mistake, bye bye Apple, I'll keep my 16" Macbook Pro for some years and then unfortunately buy some probably crappy windows laptop, but still better than a f... ARM Macbook Pro... I hope Apple sells historically numbers, have fun playing crappy Apple Arcade
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IMAGINE THAT!!?? same here, 38, probably future client of an Asus Zenbook
Macs are going to be re-surging over the next 5-10 years while you stew in anger using some crappy little Asus.
 

davesavix

macrumors newbie
Jun 23, 2020
5
4
Macs are going to be re-surging over the next 5-10 years while you stew in anger using some crappy little Asus.

you know that's not gonna happen ;) many people (me included) need windows to work too, if this option is no longer available, not many people will buy macs...and anyways, apple doesn't care about mac laptops, only ipads and iphones and watches because they make most of the profit unfortunately...so they switch to ARM because they don't really care and like this they can save money.
 

pshufd

macrumors G4
Oct 24, 2013
10,145
14,572
New Hampshire
you know that's not gonna happen ;) many people (me included) need windows to work too, if this option is no longer available, not many people will buy macs...and anyways, apple doesn't care about mac laptops, only ipads and iphones and watches because they make most of the profit unfortunately...so they switch to ARM because they don't really care and like this they can save money.

Apple has a lot of corporate customers for MacBook Pros these days. We probably have thousands if not tens of thousands of them. We require support for laptops for five years. If we're buying them now, then we need an Apple corporate support contract for that long. It's possible that they don't offer that to retail customers. Microsoft does the same thing. You can get support after EOL if you're willing to pay for it.

Apple does care about Macs - how else are you going to develop the Apps for phones, tablets and watches?
 

King Luis

macrumors 6502
Jul 3, 2008
372
4
how do you mean? iPad Pro's pushing heavy sustained computation need no fans nor defiance of physics.

Especially if the ARM laptops had the logic board / 'Apple silicone' guts strapped behind the screen, and the entire bottom case beneath the keyboard and trackpad to be a massive pool of battery cells. Wouldn't even be an issue of running hot on one's lap while running these intense workloads, with the guts up top and able to be (since iPad has its guts behind its screen)

I'm only being an armchair hardware engineer here but

seems very possible, notwithstanding price and Apple's will lol

the ipad pro is already thin enough for me to have as a monitor of a laptop. making a massive storage, battery and performance boosters under the keyboard would be a radical change to the thinking of a laptop.

i'm looking forward to the ARM laptops. i'm on a 2013? MBP 13" and don't need to replace it anytime soon. But seeing them going back to making their own chips will drive me to replacing it when the time is right. maybe around OSX 11.2 or 11.3.
 

davesavix

macrumors newbie
Jun 23, 2020
5
4
Apple has a lot of corporate customers for MacBook Pros these days. We probably have thousands if not tens of thousands of them. We require support for laptops for five years. If we're buying them now, then we need an Apple corporate support contract for that long. It's possible that they don't offer that to retail customers. Microsoft does the same thing. You can get support after EOL if you're willing to pay for it.

Apple does care about Macs - how else are you going to develop the Apps for phones, tablets and watches?

how else develop the apps for phones, tablets and watches? that question is irrelevant, how many people develop apps on their macbooks? not even 1% of the users I guess? the iphone has been a great success story and it's normal that apple focuses on what brings over 50% of the profit...I'd have loved more focus on the macbooks, but the last years were horrible, only my new 16" macbook pro is finally worth its money!
 

pshufd

macrumors G4
Oct 24, 2013
10,145
14,572
New Hampshire
how else develop the apps for phones, tablets and watches? that question is irrelevant, how many people develop apps on their macbooks? not even 1% of the users I guess? the iphone has been a great success story and it's normal that apple focuses on what brings over 50% of the profit...I'd have loved more focus on the macbooks, but the last years were horrible, only my new 16" macbook pro is finally worth its money!

A lot of Apple employees. And management has to pay attention to them to maximize their productivity.
 

davesavix

macrumors newbie
Jun 23, 2020
5
4
A lot of Apple employees. And management has to pay attention to them to maximize their productivity.

Sorry but saying that Apple focuses on the mac laptops because its employees need macs to work is nonsense. You can create apps even on ipads or old macs...a company has to focus on something because of its clients worldwide and their needs, not because a handful of employees need the product
 

audiomatt

macrumors member
Dec 28, 2017
95
124
Apple does care about Macs - how else are you going to develop the Apps for phones, tablets and watches?

If that becomes the only purpose of a Mac, I'm leaving. Computers are not just a pipeline to end-users. As a category, they're at the edge of technology. Apple releases the Mac Pro, then. by this description, less than a year later decides it's going to turn its back on the scientific community by making the Mac specifically an iPad experience factory then its missing out on exactly what makes these machines magical.

A computer marketed specifically for "content generators" but lacking in compatibility, openness and interoperability is incredibly Orwellian.
 
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Realityck

macrumors G4
Nov 9, 2015
11,409
17,202
Silicon Valley, CA
A fan-less laptop that gets like 24 hour battery life and doesn't get that hot and runs laps around anything x86 even the top end would be a marvel, all under $999 lol
The arcade game that he was demoing was 1080P with enough FPS to be somewhat attractive. That was a nice example of graphics, but its was likely a pretty easy one to run. Now knowing how hot CPU/GPU combos in laptops get very hot with complex game environments even if had a pair of A12X how would that compete with GPU with fast memory?
 

pshufd

macrumors G4
Oct 24, 2013
10,145
14,572
New Hampshire
If that becomes the only purpose of a Mac, I'm leaving. Computers are not just a pipeline to end-users. As a category, they're at the edge of technology. Apple releases the Mac Pro, then. by this description, less than a year later decides it's going to turn its back on the scientific community by making the Mac specifically an iPad experience factory then its missing out on exactly what makes these machines magical.

A computer marketed specifically for "content generators" but lacking in compatibility, openness and interoperability is incredibly Orwellian.

I don't see this strawman.

I expect the Apple ARM Macs to have the same or better compute capabilities as the Intel systems that they will replace.
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The arcade game that he was demoing was 1080P with enough FPS to be somewhat attractive. That was a nice example of graphics, but its was likely a pretty easy one to run. Now knowing how hot CPU/GPU combos in laptops get very hot with complex game environments even if had a pair of A12X how would that compete with GPU with fast memory?

They will have to give systems out to reviewers to do a teardown and analysis.
 

cpnotebook80

macrumors 65816
Feb 4, 2007
1,228
550
Toronto
you know that's not gonna happen ;) many people (me included) need windows to work too, if this option is no longer available, not many people will buy macs...and anyways, apple doesn't care about mac laptops, only ipads and iphones and watches because they make most of the profit unfortunately...so they switch to ARM because they don't really care and like this they can save money.

I agree that even though I am surround by macs, I still have to use windows due to the work's in house windows software or a LMS authoring tool only working on pc, so I'm using VMware for windows now to help for those tools.
 

glindon

macrumors 6502a
Jun 9, 2014
629
901
Phoenix
It depends on what apple releases. I could see myself buying a 12" MacBook (if it has cellular) and getting rid of my iPad Pro. Or I could easily see myself replacing my 2018 15".
 

BeatCrazy

macrumors 603
Jul 20, 2011
5,121
4,480
I’ll buy whatever new ARM-based product they release this year, although probably a base model. I like new toys, and have plenty of Intel-base Macs (and Windows) computers to use for compatibility issues.
 

duervo

macrumors 68020
Feb 5, 2011
2,476
1,248
I hope the first one is an Air, because it might be cheaper, but also a Pro 13 would be nice.

I'm in the market for a laptop for work, but now I'm gonna wait and buy this one. I don't need pro apps, just document apps and web browsers, so the ARM MacBook will suit me nice. Word is already working on it and will probably be optimised even further, and with iOS apps I can get everything extra I need: games, note apps, etc.

If battery life gets even better and no fans, then it's a winner.

Currently own a 27 5K 2019 iMac, so I can wait patiently for the MacBook ARM at the end of this year.

I suspect it will either be a Mac mini (commercial release of the one that’s included in the ARM dev kit,) or the resurrection of the MacBook.
 

ek9max

macrumors regular
Feb 22, 2011
224
38
I don’t demand much from a computer. I’d gladly sell my 18’ air and 18’ for 1 new MacBook Air if it can run regular tasks on a 32” scaled 4k display. Right now my MM and air cannot with the crappy gpus.
 
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