Who’s hoping the new MBP will retain the Touch Bar?

[senttoschool]

It's easy to be critical about the 2016 era Macs in hindsight. But could you imagine the outcry here and elsewhere if Apple stayed on the old form factor for so long? It would be immense. You have to innovate and take risks to gain something big. I doesn't always turn out to be the best decision, but at least a decision is made.

Apple's next redesign is trying to be as close to the 2015 as possible. Ports coming back, MagSafe coming back, better battery life, quieter, no touch bar, high key travel.

It's like Apple is trying its hardest to pretend the 2016-2019 Macbook Pros never happened.

 

[Mr. Dee]

Today I had type and edit a 16 page document in Pages for my room mate and using the Touchbar command for Pages was such a time saver. When I had to under or italic, using the Touch Bar instead of keyboard commands was so much easier. Is it detrimental? No, because I still use my 2015 MBP without one.

 

[doolar]

Apple's next redesign is trying to be as close to the 2015 as possible. Ports coming back, MagSafe coming back, better battery life, quieter, no touch bar, high key travel.

It's like Apple is trying its hardest to pretend the 2016-2019 Macbook Pros never happened.

Maybe so. Ports coming back and Magsafe returning? I have my doubts whatever the rumor mill is peddling right now. Apple rarely reverse their "courage" moves for good and bad. The butterfly keyboard is a rare example, even though they tried to fix it the "wrong" way for years.

I don't care either way. I used dockning station with my 2015 MBP and will continue doing so when at my desk with my M1 Macs. On the move I very rarely connect anything to my computer, so for me it's a non issue, I have a rarely used dongle in my backpack.

I do realize and recognize that a lot of people will be very happy to see ports back though, if it happens.

 

[pshufd]

Maybe so. Ports coming back and Magsafe returning? I have my doubts whatever the rumor mill is peddling right now. Apple rarely reverse their "courage" moves for good and bad. The butterfly keyboard is a rare example, even though they tried to fix it the "wrong" way for years.

I don't care either way. I used dockning station with my 2015 MBP and will continue doing so when at my desk with my M1 Macs. On the move I very rarely connect anything to my computer, so for me it's a non issue, I have a rarely used dongle in my backpack.

I do realize and recognize that a lot of people will be very happy to see ports back though, if it happens.

I've bought a few USB-C dongles with my M1 Mac mini and so we're making the great transition to USB-C. We have four 2014/2015 MacBook Pros and have remained in USB-A land for five years. But the power and performance of Apple Silicon has us starting the transition. HDMI would be nice (it's in my mini after all). More ports would be nice. I can get by without SD but it would be nice to slap an extra 512 GB of slow storage in it. I like MagSafe too but it's clear that it won't be MagSafe I or II which means that I'd need to buy another power brick (I like having at least two of them).

Just bring it on, though. This waiting is annoying. My 2015 is getting slower by the day (it just feels that way after I use my M1 system).

 

[mazz0]

As long as they add back in real function keys, I couldn’t care less whether there’s a touchbar. But the touchbar in place of function keys is excruciating for those of us who are keyboard-driven.

That's an excellent point. The touch bar would be good as long as the function keys were real. (I really do need the function keys.)

What do you guys use the function keys for? I have a full width external keyboard (with numbed) and I literally never, ever use the function keys. Are you using them for their F functions, or for media/system controls like brightness, volume etc? I don't even know any F controls these days, and the system/media controls I prefer to do through control centre (and if I had a Touch Bar with a slider for them that seems like it would be even better).

 

[mazz0]

The Touch Bar represented the worst kind of innovation -- looking to improve on things that were never a problem.

That's how innovation works. Horses weren't a problem, but cars were still better. Now I'm certainly not saying that the Touch Bar is to Fn keys what the car was to horses, but the idea "if it aint broke don't fix it" is a bad attitude.

 

[altaic]

@mazz0 The comparison you’re proposing is: cars vs horses— instead of horses vs quadruped with other qualities that suck. The touchbar had potential, but it turned out to be another thing that failed to paradigm shift. It was a donkey. Reconfigurable tactile “buttons” might be a thing, but a nontactile strip you might accidentally touch sucks. Also it crashed on my 2016 MBP on a regular basis for a couple years, presumably because no one cared. Either way, it doesn’t deserve your grand comparisons. It’s meh at best.

 

[leifp]

I actually think the Touch Bar is a nice addendum. It's a totally crap replacement for the physical F keys... so if they did both, that would be ideal. If it's a case of either/or, then F the Touch Bar, as it were...

 

[bobcomer]

What do you guys use the function keys for? I have a full width external keyboard (with numbed) and I literally never, ever use the function keys. Are you using them for their F functions, or for media/system controls like brightness, volume etc? I don't even know any F controls these days, and the system/media controls I prefer to do through control centre (and if I had a Touch Bar with a slider for them that seems like it would be even better).

I use them mainly for terminal sessions to our midrange computer, can't do my job without them.

 

[ipponrg]

That's how innovation works. Horses weren't a problem, but cars were still better. Now I'm certainly not saying that the Touch Bar is to Fn keys what the car was to horses, but the idea "if it aint broke don't fix it" is a bad attitude.

I think your horses to cars example is misleading. Horses actually have many issues in terms of stamina, speed, food, and care. Cars seem to be a solution and improvement to that problem.

Looking at the Touch Bar, I don’t remember it being a solution to much except for people that didn’t learn hotkeys.

 

[thefourthpope]

I’m not really the target audience for this post as I don’t own a MBP and don’t plan to. But I’ve encountered the Touch Bar via my iPad with sidecar and it was not just useless but actually harmful to my workflows. Took up screen real estate and just gave me something else to check to see what was going on and whether the options had changed. Turned it off pretty quickly.

 

[The Cockney Rebel]

Apple should just add it as a BTO option. I personally love the Touch Bar. Could as well live without it, but if it was an option, I would certainly pay for it.

What do you like about it?

 

[mazz0]

I use them mainly for terminal sessions to our midrange computer, can't do my job without them.

What do they do in the terminal? I'm wondering if I'm missing any tricks that might make my work easier!

 

[The Cockney Rebel]

My father can’t touch type and he loves the TB on his M1 MBP. I use mine mostly on the Fn key setting but also find it useful for Autofill on Safari (when pressing the Fn key) and emoji usage. Also, I love that I can press “Pause” on my music while my MBP 15” is still waking up from sleep.

Overall, though, give me dedicated brightness/volume/play/pause buttons with physical keys and I’ll be just as happy (sorry, dad).

I like it for the same reasons as you.

 

[mazz0]

I think your horses to cars example is misleading. Horses actually have many issues in terms of stamina, speed, food, and care. Cars seem to be a solution and improvement to that problem.

Looking at the Touch Bar, I don’t remember it being a solution to much except for people that didn’t learn hotkeys.

Even if we accept that it doesn't solve any problems, that just makes it a bad solution. It doesn't mean you shouldn't try to make things better even when people don't currently see a problem with the status quo.

As it happens I think the improvement they were trying to make was obvious: functions keys take up a lot of space for very, very limited use. Theoretically the Touch Bar allows the same amount of space to be used for an awful lot more (infinitely more in fact) and to be used in an arguably better way for some existing functions, eg a slider for volume and brightness. Now I understand people don't like it, but it clearly did have a reason to exist, whether you like that reason or not (or wether you like their solution or not).

I only used a Touch Bar for a year or two so I'm not as familiar with it as some here, but I always thought the biggest flaw with it was the lack of haptics. It would be so much more usable with tactile feedback. Seemed crazy that they didn't include that.

 

[transpo1]

The 2016 Macbook Pro:

• $400 higher starting price than 2015
• Touchbar replaced Function keys and made basic functions such as changing the volume harder
• Removed ESC key which gave developers anxiety
• Removed commonly used ports and forced everyone to carry a hub/dongles
• Your new iPhone that came with a USB-A cable could no longer be charged on your new Macbook Pro without a dongle/dock
• Butterfly keyboard low travel and malfunctioning
• Worse battery life than 2015
• Ran hotter than 2015 due to smaller chassis

Whoever designed the 2016 laptops probably also designed the 2013 Trashcan Mac Pros. Hopefully those responsible are all gone from Apple.

Actually, the design of the 2013 Mac Pro (Trashcan edition) is incredible. The way they designed the central cooling/fan was pretty innovative. The only problem was, it's not highly upgradeable for a customer demo that likes to upgrade. So, in that essence, it seems to be the equivalent of the G4 Cube if anyone remembers that far back.

I have a feeling that with the new Apple Silicon machines, we will once again go back to a very small Mac Pro chassis and perhaps less upgradeability, but we'll see.

 

[transpo1]

And yet I loved, LOVED my 2017 MPB until the M1 machines came along. I had a 2015 MBP before the 2017 and loved the smaller footprint of the 2017 for traveling. If it weren't for the M1 Macs I would have kept my 2017 Mac for several more years. But I'm still a bit marked from the last Apple CPU transition, and I refuse to be left behind this time too.

Durability wise the 2015 machine was a tank and a great laptop, but the 2017 felt like such a step forward. In the end we all knew about the major fault - the keyboards (although I never had any problem at all, and I'm not babying my computers).

But I never really cared for the TB. Not minding it, and it was cool in the beginning, like all new shiny baubles are. But I didn't realize until I got my M1 Air how much I've missed physical ESC and volume buttons.

It's easy to be critical about the 2016 era Macs in hindsight. But could you imagine the outcry here and elsewhere if Apple stayed on the old form factor for so long? It would be immense. You have to innovate and take risks to gain something big. I doesn't always turn out to be the best decision, but at least a decision is made.

Yes! Apple adding and trying out the Touch Bar is a risk to be applauded. Innovative companies have to take risks and be willing to fail. Usually, Apple gets it right, but in this case, they just had a couple of "fails" together in the same machine-- the TB and the Butterfly Keyboard (okay, the TB is a moderate fail- some people like it).

The whole thing is super ironic to me because I'm typing this on a MBP 2018 15" with TB.

 

[transpo1]

What do you guys use the function keys for? I have a full width external keyboard (with numbed) and I literally never, ever use the function keys. Are you using them for their F functions, or for media/system controls like brightness, volume etc? I don't even know any F controls these days, and the system/media controls I prefer to do through control centre (and if I had a Touch Bar with a slider for them that seems like it would be even better).

Media/system controls for music, brightness, one key volume or mute, keyboard brightness, et al.

 

[Madhatter32]

That's how innovation works. Horses weren't a problem, but cars were still better. Now I'm certainly not saying that the Touch Bar is to Fn keys what the car was to horses, but the idea "if it aint broke don't fix it" is a bad attitude.

So-called "innovation" that represents a step back in user experience and practicality is not real innovation. It is change for change's sake.

 

[mazz0]

So-called "innovation" that represents a step back in user experience and practicality is not real innovation. It is change for change's sake.

That's just innovation you don't like, or even bad innovation, it's all subjective. However, not changing something because it has "no problems" stymies good innovation too - that's my point. It doesn't matter what you think of the Touch Bar.

 

[leman]

So-called "innovation" that represents a step back in user experience and practicality is not real innovation. It is change for change's sake.

I don’t know, for me at least the Touch Bar offers better user experience than the physical keys - at least the Touch Bar has some utility. The problem is that it does not offer significant utility compared to the overhead it introduces.

 

[Madhatter32]

That's just innovation you don't like, or even bad innovation, it's all subjective. However, not changing something because it has "no problems" stymies good innovation too - that's my point. It doesn't matter what you think of the Touch Bar.

Yes, your point is well taken. I do not disagree -- companies should implement an ethos of continuous improvement. However, with respect to the touchbar and butterfly keyboard, I think that for a single company like Apple (with limited SKUs and product choice and a strong "walled garden" and huge user base), it bears a responsibility to make sure that what it presents in its consumer products really does represent real improvement -- rather than merely a selling point of differentiation for maketing purposes. Was New Coke really an improvement over the old? Most consumers did not think so.

 

[Madhatter32]

I don’t know, for me at least the Touch Bar offers better user experience than the physical keys - at least the Touch Bar has some utility. The problem is that it does not offer significant utility compared to the overhead it introduces.

Apple left consumers wanting a MBP no choice but to pay more for technology with questionable improved utility. If given the choice, I suspect that consumers would have put a stop to the Touch Bar many years ago through regular market dynamics.

 

[pshufd]

I use the function keys for media and some of the macOS function keys. On Windows, I use the Print Screen key and the media keys. I use emacs for editing and the escape key is critical there. I use the escape key for full-screen web browser pages too. So physical function keys are nice.

 

[leman]

Apple left consumers wanting a MBP no choice but to pay more for technology with questionable improved utility. If given the choice, I suspect that consumers would have put a stop to the Touch Bar many years ago through regular market dynamics.

I wish people stopped repeating these false claims. You are not paying any extra for the Touch Bar. Those laptops are the same price as the equivalent models without the Touch Bar.

I use the function keys for media and some of the macOS function keys. On Windows, I use the Print Screen key and the media keys. I use emacs for editing and the escape key is critical there. I use the escape key for full-screen web browser pages too. So physical function keys are nice.

Escape key was indeed a problem, one that Apple fixed two years ago. For multimedia controls I personally find the Touch Bar vastly superior - it allows precise adjustments with a single motion where I’d need to press keys repeatedly to achieve the same effect.