The base 2015 MBP 15 had the 2.2 Ghz CPU. The 2.5 Ghz model had the middle CPU. The high-end was 2.8 Ghz.
I'm typing on the 2015 2.5/AMD/512 model right now.
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Who’s hoping the new MBP will retain the Touch Bar?
- Thread starter The Cockney Rebel
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The base 2015 MBP 15 had the 2.2 Ghz CPU. The 2.5 Ghz model had the middle CPU. The high-end was 2.8 Ghz.
I'm typing on the 2015 2.5/AMD/512 model right now.
I play Starcraft 2 which needs physical function keys to be playable. Many AAA games will require physical function keys.
Don't care one way or the other. TB has some advantages as do physical keys just depends on the users needs. I also think the writing is on the wall for the TB as it's never really taken off. Even Apple hasn't done much with it, nor implemented the TB on other Mac's.
Overall I think that the TB was a solution to a problem that never really existed for the users. It was more a technical statement by Apple in the face of the ever advancing Windows 2in1 portables. Something Apple will never bring to market as they want you to own as many devices in their ecosystem as possible.
Now Apple has technical superiority with it's own silicon, it no longer needs the complication of the TB or the little merit it brings to the table.
Q-6
Overall I think that the TB was a solution to a problem that never really existed for the users. It was more a technical statement by Apple in the face of the ever advancing Windows 2in1 portables. Something Apple will never bring to market as they want you to own as many devices in their ecosystem as possible.
Now Apple has technical superiority with it's own silicon, it no longer needs the complication of the TB or the little merit it brings to the table.
Q-6
Exactly, but that base model was the one that got discontinued. The 2016 base model had the 2.6 Skylake CPU, Radeon Pro 450 and 256GB SSD for $2399. @ippongr was comparing the base 2015 dGPU model ($2499) to the mid-tier 2016 model (the one with faster GPU, faster CPU and 512GB SSD). Basically, the 2016 15" model was $100 less but also had a smaller 256GB SSD. So one can argue that there was effectively a price increase, spec per spec.
However, given the amount of changes in the 2016 models I don't think that one can pin that price increase on the Touch Bar alone. You had LPDDR3 instead of cheaper DDR3L, four-port Thunderbolt (which is not cheap either), wide color display panels...
I bought my M1 MBP out of fear that it would be going away on the redesign. I love the thing.
You really think that the manufacturing costs to implement the touch bar -- an interactive OLED screen -- is the same as 14 plastic keys? If not, it stands to reason that Apple will either charge more for a device with the touchbar or reduce component costs somewhere else. Either way, I think that most consumers would want those cost dollars going to other more important components or otherwise simply pay less for the device.
Of course not.
All I am saying that the Touch Bar Macs sell at a price point roughly comparable price point to the previous models. I do not see how mere introduction of the Touch Bar can be convincingly linked to increased prices (like it was the case with first retina models back in the day). Besides, who says that Apples margins on every single Mac laptop has to be the same? They don’t set prices based on the component cost, it’s more of the other way around, they have their traditional price targets and see what they can build to achieve acceptable profitability. I have little doubt that the 2016 MacBook Pros cost Apple more to build than the 2015 ones - but the Touch Bar is just one small part of the total bill.
To put it in other, probably more relevant, terms - if the Touch Bar never existed I’m fairly confident that the 2016 models would sell for exactly the same price as they did.
Okay, I understand your point. Call me crazy but I always just assume that the consumer ends up paying for things one way or the other -- but perhaps you are right and that Apple simply incorporates the added costs with lower profit margins or offsets it elsewhere in the product line. It is certainly possible.
That aside, I would bet that if Apple had let the market decide and offered two laptops -- the only difference being one came with the touch bar and one with function keys -- and decided to actually pass those savings through to the consumer, the device with the function keys device would have greatly outsold the other device and would have demontrated to Apple that most customers would have not chosen to pay for such an essential "innovation." We will never know though.
Again, the 2015 base model did not have a dGPU and was effectively discontinued. The mid-range model with a dGPU then became the new “entry-level” for $2399.
I kind of hope the touchbar catches on more, even though I haven’t gotten much chance to use it myself. I like the idea of an adaptable input bar in place of the mechanical function key row because I don’t really touch type that top row anyway. So for me, the potential benefit greatly outweighs the detriment.
I’d think Apple knew the touchbar wouldn’t be popular with a lot of developers since they have many developers under their employ and would know that they touch type the function keys. So I assume that was something Apple accepted in the hopes that in return the touchbar would add a lot of functionality for people who wouldn’t miss the mechanical keys (I don’t know any non-develoeprs who touch type function keys so I dare assume it’s the vast majority of people).
But the usefulness and success of the touchbar depends largely on Apple and developers coming up with good, useful implementations in their software. So the question is, have they? Can they? Will they? In addition, that usefulness would need to be marketed adequately.
Of course, ideally Apple would offer both options—with and without touchbar.
I’d think Apple knew the touchbar wouldn’t be popular with a lot of developers since they have many developers under their employ and would know that they touch type the function keys. So I assume that was something Apple accepted in the hopes that in return the touchbar would add a lot of functionality for people who wouldn’t miss the mechanical keys (I don’t know any non-develoeprs who touch type function keys so I dare assume it’s the vast majority of people).
But the usefulness and success of the touchbar depends largely on Apple and developers coming up with good, useful implementations in their software. So the question is, have they? Can they? Will they? In addition, that usefulness would need to be marketed adequately.
Of course, ideally Apple would offer both options—with and without touchbar.
MacBook Pro "Core i7" 2.5 15" Mid-2015 (DG) Specs (Retina Mid-2015 15", MJLT2LL/A, MacBookPro11,5, A1398, 2910): EveryMac.com
Technical specifications for the MacBook Pro "Core i7" 2.5 15" Mid-2015 (DG). Dates sold, processor type, memory info, hard drive details, price and more.
$2499 for base with 2.5 ghz i7 + dGPU + 512 GB HD + 16 GB
MacBook Pro "Core i7" 2.6 15" Touch/Late 2016 Specs (Late 2016 15" (Touch Bar), MLH32LL/A*, MacBookPro13,3, A1707, 3072): EveryMac.com
Technical specifications for the MacBook Pro "Core i7" 2.6 15" Touch/Late 2016. Dates sold, processor type, memory info, hard drive details, price and more.
$2399 for 2.6 ghz i7 + dGPU + 256 GB HD + 16 GB. This isn't mine but was the base. Assuming the link is historically accurate, it was $200 extra for 512 GB. So that puts it at $2599.
I agree that one can't exclusively pin it on the touch bar. However if you buy the "base" from the Mac Store with the same disk/memory specs, it's hard not to notice the Touch Bar being the major feature difference.
I do like the TouchBar. This is my first Mac, had it for a few months. I was a little apprehensive at first with all the hate it receives. I have grown to like it. If it was removed I wouldn't really be impacted as I can go either way with physical buttons or touch buttons.
Hopefully we’ll get rid of every gimmick that the 2016 redesign brought.
Ive never had a Mac with a Touch Bar, I always heard about the hate of the keyboard and Touch Bar so I avoided all the 2016-2019 Macs. I went with Air's for the 2020 Macs and I love them, but I was playing with a M1 Pro at Worst Buy the other day and I really liked the Safari address bar feature and shortcuts in the Touch Bar. I think its probably going away with the new Pro's tho.
I really don't care one way or another. It's great for some things, but I quickly realized that the functions displayed I used rarely. I switched my touch bar to show F-keys by default and they're more useful. If I need a function on the touch bar, then I'll hold down function and use it.
I'd rather have physical F-keys, though.
I'd rather have physical F-keys, though.
Oh, no argument here. I just think that one needs to be careful with making connection that might be spurious. If we imagine that Touch Bar never happened, what would be the price of the 2016 MacBook Pro? My bet is still $2399 (because it’s the cheapest they ever priced a dGPU-based machine), and I’m sure it would still have only a 256GB SSD (because gotta sell those upgrades, right?).
In the end, there is one big argument for dropping the Touch Bar - it fragments the software ecosystem. Touch Bar is a feature that only exists on a small portion of Mac computers and it requires additional (sometimes significant) effort from the developer to be utilized properly. This is its primary drawback. Ideally, Touch Bar should be either standard everywhere or nowhere.
Or optionally everywhere. I still think that would gain a wider developor support than today.
That’s a good point—I imagine developers aren’t motivated to utilize the touch bar if it can only be used on a small portion of devices. Right now that’s only on some Macbooks. For it to succeed, Apple needs to make it available, even if just as an option, for all their Macs. Then there’d be a fighting chance. But if it’s only an option, then we run into the chicken and egg scenario. Do developers convince users to get a touch bar, or do users convince developers to utilize the touch bar?
Only if „optional“ would mean „pay extra to get rid of it“. Touch Bar would be pointless as a paid upgrade on an already expensive Mac. Barely anyone would pay for it.
?♂️ depends if really added some value, like widespread app-support. I have never used a touch-bar (except tried it virtual) and always thought of it as a gimmic and wrong direction. I love buttons and hate apple obsession with touch and how other manufactures killed all their qwerty-phones to play copycat. I think it could be usefull as an extra addition above the F-keys and should be considered more gui than keyboard and not a replacement for function-keys.
I haven't seen it mentioned here yet, but I use it quite a lot on Photoshop. The brushes specifically are quite a bit faster to handle on the TB, size/hardness/opacity/flow, it's very convenient to just scrub and adjust those. Layer Properties are less useful for me personally, but it's still nice to scrub through the blend modes on it and quickly go to the Select & Mask workspace. I also like how the History button gives you a preview of the image on the TB itself and you can just pick the image you want to go back to. It's too small to see anything other than global adjustments, but if you've been messing up for several adjustments now and don't like the direction the edit's going in, it's actually quite helpful.
Other than Photshop, I don't understand the brightness/sound complaints, I feel like scrubbing works faster than tapping and it's something I genuinely miss when I have to use the Windows laptop. The media controls are very convenient also and I use them often, I can live without them, but they're a nice to have.
In general, I can survive without the Touch Bar, but I use it often enough to miss it when I don't have it. If there was a BTO option, even if reasonably more expensive, I would like to have it. It could definitely be a better, tool but it doesn't mean that it's a useless one. Not for me at least.
Other than Photshop, I don't understand the brightness/sound complaints, I feel like scrubbing works faster than tapping and it's something I genuinely miss when I have to use the Windows laptop. The media controls are very convenient also and I use them often, I can live without them, but they're a nice to have.
In general, I can survive without the Touch Bar, but I use it often enough to miss it when I don't have it. If there was a BTO option, even if reasonably more expensive, I would like to have it. It could definitely be a better, tool but it doesn't mean that it's a useless one. Not for me at least.