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Why are you NOT buying a nMP?
- Thread starter avemestr
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Better watch out, I hear Tim and his goons rove the streets at night looking for violators.
If you're caught, I hear they wave stock options in your face, threaten you with premature obsolescence and high prices (Oh, wait, that's Apple's normal business practice), and may even resort to the "W" word (windows) in bouts of mildly abusive language.
1. And you think either will a) arrive on time or be integrated in the next 6 months on anything. DDR 4 May arrive earlier. but still no Motherboard will support it.
2. Until the complete Spec hits the Apple store we know nothing. All else is macrumors. I know that they have specs online but that can all change.
3. I am not saying you are wrong but that for the foreseeable future it doesn't matter a bit. PCIe x16 bearly gives any actual performance improvement ( at the moment )
http://www.tested.com/tech/457440-theoretical-vs-actual-bandwidth-pci-express-and-thunderbolt/
"The doubled bandwidth of PCIe 3.0 x16, compared to PCIe 2.0, doesn't seem to make much of a difference yet. AnandTech's Ryan Smith tested two Nvidia GeForce GTX Titans, the current fastest single-GPU cards, in SLI on both PCIe 3.0 and 2.0, and found, at best, a seven percent performance improvement at 5760 x 1200."
A PCIe external device taps directly into the bandwidth of the system. So you can only use that full amount if nothing else is going on in system. Not so with Thunderbolt. It's a separate controller.
4. I and every other pro has Every socket on a macpro filled already. External storage is way way better for even a home office. I have already run a few 20m Thunderbolt to my garage and and external Raid. All you need internally is you current main work files. This has been the recommend way in media companies for years. If only because anyone can get access when needed. Thunderbolt allows networked access from any machine to the Storage AND any PCIe Cards you might need. YES EVEN A TITAN OR 2.
The Ram is only maxed because of the 4 slots and 16gb modules are the max at the moment. 32gb modules are coming. then you can add more.
I understand that people want Dual CPUs but the overhead in power, Heat and cost - 2 cpus does not double the benchmarks and probably far out weigh the benefits. Dual Xeon workstations at BOXX ( of this class ) start at $16K for example.
Also who's to say that doesn't come down the line. The original dual CPU Macpros came months after the first ones.
As for who this is for.... It's for studios. I've freelanced at scores of companies in the last 10 years and they almost all had on thing in Common.
A Mac Pro ( or PC workstation in fact )
One Hard Drive slot in use, almost always a stock 7200rpm drive, not sdd or even 10K drive
One PCI slot in Use, Sometimes a Workstation GPU... mostly a stock card. GT 120 - 5770 - or even 7300GT
Sometimes there would be a breakout card for video. Sometimes a Red or Blackmagic
http://www.blackmagicdesign.com/uk/products/ultrastudiothunderbolt
These are way more useful as they are not machine dependant.
1gb (never actually getting it) shared networking - Only 3 studios ever had 4gb Fibre.
The new mac pro will allow all at least a decent level of processing power and most importantly Shared thunderbolt Storage and access to shared PCIe cards such as a RED or audio cards. They can all access them when needed with out having to buy 1 per machine.
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Which you have agreed to at some point. Using it in business is. No one is stupid enough to anyway. Hacks are so shonky and never work with high end software.
I can see I've ruffled some feathers. I thought this was a thread to list the reasons why we aren't buying the Mac Pro not a thread to have our opinions debated like I'm telling you not to buy one because I said so.
I shopped a company into the BSA and FAST because of this a few years ago...Every bit of software they used was stolen, Windows, Adobe, Autodesk and were running on Hackintosh. On the machine I was supposed to be using was over 18K of software. The pirate bay was their frickin' homepage. The were Fined £100K and forced to delete every bit of software and pay for new licences.
I shopped them because they didn't pay me even though they won an award of the back of my work. and the Owner was driving around in a brand new Range Rover. They basically could undercut all the other company / people who put in prices because they actually paid for the software they used.
It's companies and people like that that are forcing down rates and making legal people suffer, so screw them.
That said I have zero issue with people using Hackintoshs for home use. I suspect even Apple don't. It's only when people try and make money from it like psystar a few years ago.
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Yup see above... But to be fair this is a forum where we can speak our minds, whilst admittedly trying to stay on topic.
I just pulled the trigger and got again - a Mac Mini (2.6) and 3rd party 2x8 RAM and a Samsung 512 SSD. This will have to suffice for now with my photo work.
The new Mac Pro Mini might be on my list late next year. I'll see how others comment on their purchases of this PC. Then again, given how Apple seems, in my estimates, to be jerking us all around, I may go back to the other team and build my self my next system.
The new Mac Pro Mini might be on my list late next year. I'll see how others comment on their purchases of this PC. Then again, given how Apple seems, in my estimates, to be jerking us all around, I may go back to the other team and build my self my next system.
I admit that I don't foresee the XEON Haswell-E chips shipping until September next year. But I do believe the Core i7 versions (6 and 8 Core i7's) will ship in late June / Early July 2014 with DDR4 memory support.
None of these chips will be drop in replacements in the nMP. But it's my opinion and it's just one of the many reasons I'm not buying a nMP. I'd rather build a new system next year utilising the Core i7 Haswell-E 8 Core CPU.
I will say this though my main motivation for not buying one is general expandability. I want more storage inside the system itself I already have a multi-terabyte server but I want more SSD storage in the system itself and I don't want to have to dangle hard drives, capture cards and other nonsense off the back of it like a heaping mess of cables. It's not just the cables that plug in to the Thunderbolt/USB ports it's also the power adapters for all those accessories.
Quick Example, Black Magic external capture cards. Before HDMI -> Mac Pro. Now? HDMI + Power Adapter + Thunderbolt Cable. Two extra cables. Two extra points of annoyance. Now multiply that for all your other previously internal hardware.
If Thunderbolt gets out from behind that slow x4 lane switch, then it might be of interest. I'll wait for TB3/TB4 or something with at least x8 lane speed.
Apple's SLA (it's called Software License Agreement, not End User License Agreement, because Apple doesn't have any OEM license agreements) is not the law, but it is the only thing that allows you to make copies of the software. Copies as in installing it on a computer, or loading it into memory to execute it. Yes, you don't break Apple's SLA. But you are in breach of copyright law, and in the USA, you are in breach of the DMCA.
Apple doesn't care very much if you copy their software. Apple _does_ care if you make loud enough claims that what you do is legal. If it was legal, don't you think Dell would sell and advertise MacOS X compatible computers?
As a rule, if you find that someone is a cheat, you can assume that they will cheat on you when it is to their benefit.
Plenty of reasons, but some/all of them might disappear after release (??) :
1. Thunderbolt current status: too expensive / too few options
2. GPUs not replaceable (user or not) ?
3. Completely new design = new problems ?
4. GPUs actually work as dual ?
5. Thermal behavior unknown (as of yet)
6. Other minor issues/questions
1. Thunderbolt current status: too expensive / too few options
2. GPUs not replaceable (user or not) ?
3. Completely new design = new problems ?
4. GPUs actually work as dual ?
5. Thermal behavior unknown (as of yet)
6. Other minor issues/questions
http://youtu.be/FhtgGGpVqDc
If I was running a business, reason 2) would probably not be a problem.
I bought the MP 3,1 for personal use and the GF's art/design projects when it was an affordable workstation £1700 in 2008, if any legitimate business application is required the genuine Apple hardware is available for use, still and for a good deal longer hopefully, as £3000 in 2014 is a bit rich for me.
The Hack is a sideline for my own amusement and damn amusing it is too.
If I was running a business, reason 2) would probably not be a problem.
I bought the MP 3,1 for personal use and the GF's art/design projects when it was an affordable workstation £1700 in 2008, if any legitimate business application is required the genuine Apple hardware is available for use, still and for a good deal longer hopefully, as £3000 in 2014 is a bit rich for me.
The Hack is a sideline for my own amusement and damn amusing it is too.
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IF I don't buy one, it'll be because I decided the value wasn't there. I'm still not 100% sure of which direction I want to go yet.
Assuming the revealed BTO prices are actually real, my ideal build would be the 8-core with the dual D700s. I'd need to buy a RAM upgrade, either through Apple or OWC depending on the price. And then there's the need for 2 empty Thunderbolt enclosures. That last part instantly adds about $1200 to the cost. In total, I'm looking at a machine that's well north of $7K US.
I can take that same $7K and throw it at a much more powerful and flexible machine with dual 8-core IVB Xeons, water cooling for the chips, dual GTX 780s from nVidia, 64GB, and a massive case that can hold all of the disks I use. The only gotcha is that I have to spend time getting OS X to work on it. That could be a big unknown.
Ultimately, I'd end up with a machine that's more flexible and future-proof. If, for some reason, nVidia finally completely falls out of favor with the video editor I use, then I can buy new AMD cards. For the time being, nVidia is the better choice. If I decide I want faster/better/more-core'd Xeons, I can throw them in without too much trouble.
We'll have to see.
Assuming the revealed BTO prices are actually real, my ideal build would be the 8-core with the dual D700s. I'd need to buy a RAM upgrade, either through Apple or OWC depending on the price. And then there's the need for 2 empty Thunderbolt enclosures. That last part instantly adds about $1200 to the cost. In total, I'm looking at a machine that's well north of $7K US.
I can take that same $7K and throw it at a much more powerful and flexible machine with dual 8-core IVB Xeons, water cooling for the chips, dual GTX 780s from nVidia, 64GB, and a massive case that can hold all of the disks I use. The only gotcha is that I have to spend time getting OS X to work on it. That could be a big unknown.
Ultimately, I'd end up with a machine that's more flexible and future-proof. If, for some reason, nVidia finally completely falls out of favor with the video editor I use, then I can buy new AMD cards. For the time being, nVidia is the better choice. If I decide I want faster/better/more-core'd Xeons, I can throw them in without too much trouble.
We'll have to see.
Fry's priced them to sell last month to get rid of inventory.
From what I recall, started at $2999, 2799, 2599, 2399, 2199, 1999 -> gone.
Bought mine at $2599 and price adjusted/matched it 3 times to get it for $1999.
Then bought a 2nd for a friend at $1999 on black friday.
Link to quad core post
SAN would be overkill. we're talking about home office work.
I've tried a couple of those Home NAS boxes. the ones in the ~$300 range. Disappointment. Nothing but disappointment. None of them came anywhere close to the 1gbps network speed. Heck, the D-link I had, which had a gigabit port, even detected the link at gigabit speeds, still only transfered content at 5MB/s.
What I ended up doing was building a home server. which was a good thing as that runs my Plex server, media content server, outward facing datbases and shell access and a few other home automation / security items. However, there are just some things I need local to my computer, where I don't find network latencies helpful. Inability to keep even 1 large storage HDD internal is a non starter for me.
I might as well leave the subforum now though. I just ordered my new computer parts. and it's not a nMP
I think I missed the boat on that option as every vendor stateside has discontinued selling them. The only ones I've found are used cpu's on ebay and I'm not willing to gamble $600 on a used cpu.
I'm not in the USA. What is it with Americans and thinking their laws are worldwide
There is nothing in my countries laws that says running my purchased copy of OS X on any computer I own is illegal.
I bought Snow Leopard, Lion and Mountain Lion. Mavericks was free and presented to me as such on my Mountain Lion install on my Hackintosh.
Also it does use an EULA so I don't know what you're on about mate. Even says so on Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OSx86
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You can call it whatever you like but I'm an end user and it's asking me to accept a license agreement. To me that is an end user license agreement.
Wired.com also call it a breach of the EULA as per their Hackintosh guide here: http://www.wired.com/gadgetlab/2008/12/gadget-lab-vide/
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Apple can't do anything if you own a copy of the software and install it on non-Apple hardware. They don't even make their computer hardware. Foxconn make the motherboards, Intel makes the CPU's, AMD and NVIDIA make the graphics, Samsung make the storage, Broadcom makes the wireless chips. Apple doesn't even assemble it, Pegatron and Foxconn do.
What the contract should say is they restrict it to hardware Apple has marketed and sold because as written it's for a computer that doesn't exist.
I did in fact read it. Did *you* read it?
I'm talking about the physical x4 lane speed limit on both TB and TB2.
If you stick an x8 lane card in a TB2 external expansion chassis, you will only have half the speed of that x8 lane card available because TB2 runs at x4 lane speed.
From your article:
"The next version of Thunderbolt, cleverly named Thunderbolt 2, will let you combine both channels into one, with a theoretical maximum of 20Gbps (2GB/s, post-encoding), allowing devices to take advantage all four PCIe 2.0 lanes in the Thunderbolt connection."
You're talking about using TB for GPUs, and I'm talking about using them for data throughput such as a stripe of SSDs. Two different things, and for what I'm talking about, it's far worse than 7% difference.
Sure but the point was it doesn't actually matter that much. And Even Data...an external PCIe connector shares the internal bus... so possibly you could get very high data transfers, but you can't be doing anything intensive on the machine. thunder bolt is on a separate controller. 3 of them in fact for the 6 ports.
The only external PCIe Raid external systems I have ever seen get near the theoretical limit were $100K+
At least TB is more affordable than that. But it's entirely depends on what you need for your business. I intend to get a 1tb internal drive and use it as my main work drive and Offload projects when complete to a thunderbolt drive. my projects are in the 10-100gb range when all is rendered and done.
PCIe 3 is a lot faster again of course, but it's still the total aggregated system speed and perhaps TB3 Will be faster again. It' seems that intel have at least future proofed the Cable for updates for the foreseeable.
I have not seen Thunderbolt aggregation available to purchase. I've seen custom built TB aggregation done, but like you said, for many thousands of dollars.
This review right here shows the exact card I have in my 2009 Mac Pro doing about 3600MB/sec, and I only paid $600 for the card. I already have RAID boxes and SSDs attached, so for me, PCIe is far more affordable, whereas switching to TB and trashing my older, faster interface is just wasting money. I have x22 lanes available, using x16 for my GPU right now. In a nMP, I'd only have x12 lanes, at x4 each port, which to my understanding are not simply aggregated. Maybe I can put two of my RAID cards on two TB expansion boxes, and then aggregate them in software, but how wasteful would that be?
Naturally, it's possible for two similar businesses to make two different choices that make equal fiscal sense despite the opposite paths taken. If you're buying new anyway, and you need it, a nMP could easily be a better choice. I'm very thankful that I'm able to wait this model out and revisit the possibility of a 7,1 or whatever replaces the nMP.
Here is what I hope for in the next (after this nMP) Mac Pro:
- Thunderbolt that runs at PCIe 2.0 x8 lane or greater, OR
- A device available that takes multiple TB connections and aggregates them into x8, x12, or even x16 lane speed.
- Thunderbolt that runs at PCIe 2.0 x8 lane or greater, OR
- A device available that takes multiple TB connections and aggregates them into x8, x12, or even x16 lane speed.
I thought the only ones left were in Texas.
Anyway, I got a refurb, it was a fair price.