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yg17

macrumors Pentium
Aug 1, 2004
15,028
3,003
St. Louis, MO
A) the laptop user DEF will get saddled with poor WiFi performance, because in addition to his own bandwidth consumption, the bandwidth being used by GHI, JKL and MNO are all being passed through him too.
Very true, of course, with the massive system requirements Windows 7 is sure to have, the perofrmance hit probably wouldn't be noticeable

B) the laptop user DEF finishes his Latte at the fringe of the coffee shop's WIFI coverage, shuts down his laptop and goes back to work ... the rest of the tag-along 'hitchhikers' go from a decent relay signal to zero signal and their sessions crash and burn.
This isn't something automatic that would happen whenever you open your laptop, this sort of thing is something you'd have to set up. So yes, if DEF shuts down, the rest of the networks are gone, but it's unlikely you would set this up in an environment where laptops are coming and going, it's more for stationary desktops that don't move. But you're not just going to open your laptop at Starbucks and suddenly be a repeater on their network.

C) if I'm paying for bandwidth and have this turned on, did I not just invite freeloaders to hitchhike on my connection ... and for which I'm footing the bill? When one of them does something illegal, am I liable?
As with any wireless network, secure it.

D) suppose that the laptop user GHI has a WiFi eavesdropper (either malware, or he's not a white hat). Would this not mean that all of the traffic that he's helping "pass through" from/to JKL and MNO has now had its security compromised?
Yes, that would be correct.

IMO, it is obvious that this feature is going to be used as a marketing hype advertisement, to illustrate how Windows is "better" than other systems. The commercial will be to show a Mac getting zero bars and the PC getting a solid connection...
Pretty much. The commercials will contain more fail than the laptop hunter ads combined.

Granted, it could be a reasonably decent idea in a trusting, benevolent IT setting (particularly if there's not one node at each DEF but dozens...preventing single point of failure in a network web), but the unfortunate reality is that this sort of computing environment hasn't existed for well over a decade, plus its creation of coverage relies on statistics, both for the availability of users as well as the ubiquity of that particular version of Windows. Even if it technically works, it will take time for broad adoption to pragmatically make it reliably available.
The only situation where I can see the need for wireless repeaters is a large, enterprise environment such as a business or college campus. It's not a bad idea for home users, but most people live in a small enough house where one wireless router will cover the entire house, and then some. And in an enterprise environment, I can pretty much guarantee you that they wouldn't even be using repeaters like this. They'll have individual access points each plugged into the wired network so there isn't a single point of failure, effectively creating one huge network all under the same SSID so you can move freely around the building/campus without changing wireless networks...the device will automatically hop onto the new base station when one with a stronger signal comes into range, the same way cell phone networks work.

Maybe one useful situation for that at home is if you have a guest over, and don't want to give them the password to your main wireless network so you create one in Windows 7 with a different password. But if I'm trusting someone enough to stay in my home, I can trust them with my WiFi network key. So I'm really thinking this feature is a gimmick so MS can claim Windows can do something that Mac's dont (other than BSOD and get infected with garbage :D) .
 

Eidorian

macrumors Penryn
Mar 23, 2005
29,190
386
Indianapolis

SACD02

macrumors member
Dec 18, 2008
75
0
Toronto
Because they renamed VISTA-v2 to windows 7

Note product version number
Vista = NT 6.0.xxxx
Win 7 = NT 6.1.xxxx

Heard of mojave?
http://www.roughlydrafted.com/2008/08/14/microsofts-mojave-attempts-to-wet-vistas-desert/


In addition, "Why Windows 7 is Microsoft’s next Zune"
http://www.roughlydrafted.com/2009/05/09/why-windows-7-is-microsofts-next-zune/

Windows 2000 was NT 5.0
Windows XP was NT 5.1

Very close numbers but indeed vastly different. XP was a big improvement over 2000 in terms of UI and multimedia features. If you are bothered by the positive image that Windows 7 has, try to come up with better excuses rather than quoting versions numbers and citing an article from "roughlydrafted" which is strong anti-Microsoft website!

That's quote from article
Microsoft serves an installed base of cheapskates through a blackmailed array of PC hardware companies who are forbidden from selling alternative software by exclusive licensing contracts. It also services, at very high cost to companies, a large number of corporate cube-holders who have no voice in the technology decisions forced upon them by corporate IT drone

When someone is this biased and such a strong Apple fanboy, one needs to take their articles with a grain of salt!
I love how to these Apple fans, the evil Microsoft and their hardware partners are trying to prevent Apple from rescuing humanity!
Somebody forgot that back in 1997, Microsoft throw Apple and their fans a bone and rescued them from going down by 150M....
 

-hh

macrumors 68030
Jul 17, 2001
2,550
336
NJ Highlands, Earth
Very true, of course, with the massive system requirements Windows 7 is sure to have, the perofrmance hit probably wouldn't be noticeable

I was thinking more of the hit on the available bandwidth of the WiFi connection, as more and more people are being shared from the same discrete host.

This isn't something automatic that would happen whenever you open your laptop, this sort of thing is something you'd have to set up. So yes, if DEF shuts down, the rest of the networks are gone, but it's unlikely you would set this up in an environment where laptops are coming and going, it's more for stationary desktops that don't move. But you're not just going to open your laptop at Starbucks and suddenly be a repeater on their network.

Understood, but I think this depends on both how one chooses to set up your own node as well as how MS chooses to market (and impliment) it. I can envision a "share OK" control panel setting that is relatively easy to set & forget ... afterall, don't want to bother the consumer with having to ask every single time, etc. Maybe have a couple of choices based on if it is a secured/unsecured network, etc ... which could quite plausibly result in an instant share node being stood up as soon as one logs onto a public WiFi, etc.

The only situation where I can see the need for wireless repeaters is a large, enterprise environment such as a business or college campus. It's not a bad idea for home users, but most people live in a small enough house where one wireless router will cover the entire house, and then some. And in an enterprise environment, I can pretty much guarantee you that they wouldn't even be using repeaters like this. They'll have individual access points each plugged into the wired network so there isn't a single point of failure, effectively creating one huge network all under the same SSID so you can move freely around the building/campus without changing wireless networks...the device will automatically hop onto the new base station when one with a stronger signal comes into range, the same way cell phone networks work.

I can see college campuses as being the most likely target. Of course, with Princeton University hitting 60% OS X last year, Windows is in the minority there.

Agree on Enterprise, particularly when you hit security-concious IT groups that don't like wireless at all...its too easy to simply throw two 100bT (or higher) snaps into each cubicle during the next office rennovation, particularly since it can't eliminate the concentrator/hub.

Back at home, it only has utility for households who have more than one computer. And while it makes for a good ad to have Mom using her laptop out by the swimming pool by hitchhiking off of Johnny's bedroom computer, the reality is that when Johnny takes his computer over to his friends to play WOW, Mom gets to discover her single point of failure after the cameras have left.

Maybe one useful situation for that at home is if you have a guest over, and don't want to give them the password to your main wireless network so you create one in Windows 7 with a different password. But if I'm trusting someone enough to stay in my home, I can trust them with my WiFi network key. So I'm really thinking this feature is a gimmick so MS can claim Windows can do something that Mac's dont (other than BSOD and get infected with garbage :D) .

Agreed.

So far, it really appears to fail the pragmatic "But what is it really good for?" test. And until that question gets a solid answer, I see this Win7 feature as useful...as a convenient yardstick with which to gage the {non}credibility of all of those Win7 reviews that we're going to get inundated with later this year.


-hh
 

SACD02

macrumors member
Dec 18, 2008
75
0
Toronto
I don't think they forgot... do you really think Microsoft threw Apple a bone out of the goodness of their heart?

Any business will be very stupid to do anything out of the goodness of their heart. You run business to make money not to save the humanity, otherwise you should call it a charity
Both Apple and Microsoft are businesses; their first and most important aim is to make money. There are people here however that seem to believe that Apple is a good hearted company with a purpose to help humans and Microsoft is the evil that wants to control the innocent masses with their Windows
The same people however forgot that their Dear Leader mentioned some years ago that success of Apple has nothing to do with Microsoft but to these people, the war never ended
It's okay though; some people choose to be a sheep and they feel complete with an OS....
 

wkearney99

macrumors member
Dec 14, 2008
48
2
Bethesda, MD USA
Again, I stress that I personally don't have a problem with Vista, but it really seems to me that Windows 7 is just Windows Vista re-packaged and re-marketed.

Using both I can tell you Windows 7 has a number of improvements over Vista to make it worthwhile. Just as OS X has evolved over the years, adding new features, bug fixing, improving performance and the like. Same deal.
 

mikes70mustang

macrumors 68000
Nov 14, 2008
1,591
0
US
people just think its great b/c they think its the windows savior, which is very unlikely. windows 7- ready to ship, complete with major bugs
 

neiltc13

macrumors 68040
May 27, 2006
3,128
28
people just think its great b/c they think its the windows savior, which is very unlikely. windows 7- ready to ship, complete with major bugs

Well having used it extensively over the past 2 or 3 weeks I can tell you it is very stable and despite its unfinished state I haven't come across any 'bugs' whatsoever. I haven't had a single program crash and the only minor problem I had was getting my wireless keyboard to pair with the system. Some updated drivers should fix that.

So.. given another few months in development it's looking like this is going to be the best OS on the market. Apple will have to come up with something VERY special in Snow Leopard to beat it.
 

MacAndy74

macrumors 65816
Mar 19, 2009
1,050
0
Australia
What many Windows users seem to miss, and it's obvious.
Windows 7 is Vista, Vista done really well - compared to Vista; but they both share the same type of kernel and underlying framework. ;)
 

SactoGuy18

macrumors 601
Sep 11, 2006
4,733
1,798
Sacramento, CA USA
What many Windows users seem to miss, and it's obvious.
Windows 7 is Vista, Vista done really well - compared to Vista; but they both share the same type of kernel and underlying framework. ;)

Which is actually a GOOD thing--Windows 7 is essentially Windows Vista with performance enhancements and a cleaned up interface. Sounds like the change between MacOS X 10.5.x and MacOS X 10.6--Mac X 10.6 ("Snow Leopard") is essentially the MacOS X 10.5 but with performance enhancements and cleanup to the interface.
 

MacAndy74

macrumors 65816
Mar 19, 2009
1,050
0
Australia
Yes but that also means the underlying flaws of the current framework are still present, as well as amazingly annoying DRM.

For instance I can playback any region DVD on my iMac - no problem.
On Windows 7 I get prompted that I can change the region code of my DVD player; then it's locked for life on the last selected region. Then there is the UI with transparencies for the sake of transparencies (which give me headaches) and when I turn these transparencies off - the UI looks even more unattractive. Lose / Lose situation for me.
 

jaw04005

macrumors 601
Aug 19, 2003
4,571
561
AR
Yes but that also means the underlying flaws of the current framework are still present, as well as amazingly annoying DRM.

For instance I can playback any region DVD on my iMac - no problem.

You get prompted in Mac OS X to change your region code also. You're limited to the same 5 changes as Windows. This is a HARDWARE limit as part of the DVD standard set by the DVD Forum. :rolleyes:

Apple wrote an entire article on it in their knowledge base:

http://support.apple.com/kb/HT2397?viewlocale=en_US

In fact, you would have an easier time flashing your generic Windows PC DVD drive to region free than the slot-loading Matshita drives Apple uses in all Macs except the Mac Pro.

Just like the Mac, you can use VLC on Windows to bypass the "DRM."
 

flopticalcube

macrumors G4
Yes but that also means the underlying flaws of the current framework are still present, as well as amazingly annoying DRM.

For instance I can playback any region DVD on my iMac - no problem.
On Windows 7 I get prompted that I can change the region code of my DVD player; then it's locked for life on the last selected region.
That's a hardware feature and is OS independent. All the new (and recent) Macs do the same thing.
 

jwpoore

macrumors member
Feb 17, 2008
47
0
Sheffield, England
Don't forget that in the 3 years since Vista launched many people may have chosen to upgrade their systems to suit Vista and many more of the machines nowadays, becides low end machines and netbooks are suitable for Vistas requirements.
 

AlexisV

macrumors 68000
Mar 12, 2007
1,720
274
Manchester, UK
Seems simple to me!

7 is supposed to be Vista, but all the problems removed.

Whether it turns out to be true is another matter...
 

Pika

macrumors 68000
Original poster
Oct 5, 2008
1,759
0
Japan
We did this before with Windows 7 at PDC and the Windows 7 Beta – I figured it’s time to do it for the Windows 7 RC. Here are a handful of quotes of what people are saying about the Windows 7 RC:

Ed Bott from ZDNet wrote:

Overall, I’m impressed with how reliable this Windows release has been. It also seems more than adequate in terms of performance.

Dwight Silverman from the Houston Chronicle wrote:

This latest test release is good. Really good. In fact, it’s good enough that, were Microsoft to call this the finished version and release it formally, it would be a much better product than Windows Vista was when it launched in early 2007.

Preston Gralla of Computerworld wrote:

Windows 7 RC1 includes a substantial number of productivity and performance tweaks that make an already solid, fast, entertaining and useful operating system even better.

Simon Bisson of ZDNet talks about his long history testing beta and RC bits of Windows and how the Windows 7 RC compares:

We've been using Beta and RC code since Windows 3, and this is by far the most solid and feature-complete RC we've seen.

Jeremy Kaplan of PC Magazine wrote:

Bottom line is that Windows 7 Release Candidate is more polished than the beta; seems to be better optimized for operating speed, responsiveness and improves user experience.

Matt Buchanan from Gizmodo digs the new backgrounds we added to the Windows 7 RC (I do too!):

Yes, these are just a handful of the ridiculously awesome backgrounds packed inside Windows 7.

Samara Lyn from CRN was impressed with the work we have done with Windows 7 and with our partners on driver compatibility:

Another blessing with Window 7 RC is that there were no issues with drivers. It looks as if Microsoft and vendors really got on board with ensuring driver compatibility.

This is what Mary Branscombe from the Financial Times had to say about the Windows 7 RC:

For end users, Windows 7 is a clear leap forward, and if the final version has the same high quality and attention to detail as this release it should appeal to customers and PC manufacturers alike.

And here is what Joshua Topolsky from Engadget said:

One thing we can say for sure is that it felt snappier and less buggy than the earlier versions (duh), and it's clear that Microsoft has taken a lot of the feedback it's gotten to heart. RC1 shows off definite attention to detail.
 

blackhand1001

macrumors 68030
Jan 6, 2009
2,600
37
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