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haralds

macrumors 68030
Jan 3, 2014
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I think there is little to be gained from running Windows 11 natively on Mac M1/M2 hardware. In the past the direct access to display hardware from AMD or nVidia with native drivers was the main motivator, since VM runtime overheads are actually quite small. But with SoC GPU the Apple implementation is likely to be much better than anything produced natively by third parties. Parallels DirectX to Metal mapping is quite performant for games.
 

MandiMac

macrumors 65816
Feb 25, 2012
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Gerdi

macrumors 6502
Apr 25, 2020
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Well, I'd love to see some review links please. All I can muster up are lacklustre impressions at best, like this https://www.pcworld.com/article/393...ndows-on-arm-compares-to-the-new-mac-m1s.html or this one: https://uk.pcmag.com/opinion/137614/windows-on-arm-is-an-armbarrassment

Shifting-goal post? Your claim was that: "My last update was that even Office had trouble to run smoothly on ARM, and it seems they need some more time until it's up to snuff. ".

Aside from the fact, that a 7W TDP device tends to be slower than a device (HP Pavilion 360), which peaks at 37W - there is no indication from your linked articles to support your claim that Office does not run smoothly. In particular because both Office and Handbreak run natively on Windows ARM devices.
 
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Yebubbleman

macrumors 603
May 20, 2010
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You assume that Windows for ARM is a thing.

It actually IS a thing. There are devices sold with it. There are updates pushed for it. Enterprises have the option of deploying the Enterprise SKU to ARM based devices that came with a Pro or Home version of it pre-loaded. It's 100% A THING.

But as it stands now, it's not.

No, it's an actual thing. :)

The single best things going on for Windows are backwards compatibility and games, and when they simply move towards ARM without a Rosetta 2-like solution, both (admittedly huge) advantages would break.

They actually have a Rosetta 2 like situation. 32-bit x86 emulation on it is crap (and wouldn't work on Apple Silicon as Apple Silicon versions of ARM64, from A11 and newer, do not have 32-bit instruction sets of any kind), but it works. 64-bit x86 emulation is apparently better. But it's totally a thing. Is it as well performing as Rosetta 2 is? I don't believe so. But it is there and it does work okay.

So consumers would have no reason to make the switch because it's just an inferior version of Windows, really.

It's not an inferior version of Windows. It's the same Windows, just running on an architecture that has way fewer native apps written for it.


That's how it is today, Microsoft knows it, and that's why Windows on ARM is just for Windows Insiders.

Again, not true. There are commercially available ARM64-based PCs. The Surface Pro X is one of them. You could go to a Best Buy or a Costco and walk out with one right now. Not a Windows Insider version.


Nobody can buy a licence today, and there's a lot of technical reasons for it. Sad, but true.
No one can buy a STANDALONE license today. Technically an OEM license is still a license and is purchased with the hardware. Similarly the Enterprise license is NOT OEM (though it is technically an add-on to an existing OEM Home or Pro license).

Also, no, there are no technical reasons for it. Microsoft just doesn't want to. There is nothing technical stopping them from selling standalone licenses of Windows for ARM64. It's entirely by choice.
 

MandiMac

macrumors 65816
Feb 25, 2012
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Shifting-goal post? Your claim was that: "My last update was that even Office had trouble to run smoothly on ARM, and it seems they need some more time until it's up to snuff. ".

Aside from the fact, that a 7W TDP device tends to be slower than a device (HP Pavilion 360), which peaks at 37W - there is no indication from your linked articles to support your claim that Office does not run smoothly. In particular because both Office and Handbreak run natively on Windows ARM devices.
Well, my claim was true regarding to my last update (sorry I don't search for things regularly I don't deem very interesting or successful). And I'd still love to see some reviews where reviewers are actually satisfied with the state of Windows on ARM, because I can't seem to find any. Do you?
 

MandiMac

macrumors 65816
Feb 25, 2012
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They actually have a Rosetta 2 like situation. 32-bit x86 emulation on it is crap (and wouldn't work on Apple Silicon as Apple Silicon versions of ARM64, from A11 and newer, do not have 32-bit instruction sets of any kind), but it works. 64-bit x86 emulation is apparently better. But it's totally a thing. Is it as well performing as Rosetta 2 is? I don't believe so. But it is there and it does work okay.

[...]

It's not an inferior version of Windows. It's the same Windows, just running on an architecture that has way fewer native apps written for it.

[...]

Also, no, there are no technical reasons for it. Microsoft just doesn't want to. There is nothing technical stopping them from selling standalone licenses of Windows for ARM64. It's entirely by choice.
Thank you for the update about 64-bit x86 emulation. I don't seem to find anything about *how well* it runs, but good to know that it is on the way! My last knowledge was 32-bit emulation, apparently, because everyone avoided it like the plague.

And you're saying it's "just running on an architecture that has way fewer native apps written for it" which is EXACTLY a technical reason why Microsoft won't give out standalone licenses. I fully get it that there are devices from OEMs that have such a licence pre-installed (the only way to get that Windows without the Insider program), but again, I can't find any review where reviewers are really satisfied and can fully recommend that hardware. Could you maybe point me to the right direction, please?
 

theluggage

macrumors G3
Jul 29, 2011
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I fully get it that there are devices from OEMs that have such a licence pre-installed (the only way to get that Windows without the Insider program)
The need to sign up for the "insider" program to run Windows for ARM under Parallels quietly vanished some time ago after the launch of Windows 11. You can apparently download a "production" version, buy a regular Windows 11 license and enter the serial to activate it. Whether you're violating some EULA license term about only running it on supported hardware I don't know - and IANAL - but you're no longer having to sign up for an evaluation-only beta version.
 
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bobcomer

macrumors 601
May 18, 2015
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The need to sign up for the "insider" program to run Windows for ARM under Parallels quietly vanished some time ago after the launch of Windows 11. You can apparently download a "production" version, buy a regular Windows 11 license and enter the serial to activate it. Whether you're violating some EULA license term about only running it on supported hardware I don't know - and IANAL - but you're no longer having to sign up for an evaluation-only beta version.
Yes, you are definitely violating the EULA, and if you were a business, there would probably be severe penalties if Microsoft audited your software.

And yes, you can download and install the full version and even activate it with a purchased Windows key, but you cannot have your install legally licensed.


Note the system requirements from Microsoft on installing Windows:

(Note that generic Arm processors don't meet the requirements, not to mention Apple silicon)

Windows Client Edition Processors​

Windows EditionAMD ProcessorsIntel ProcessorsQualcomm Processors
Windows 7 and earlier editionsSupported AMD ProcessorsSupported Intel ProcessorsN/A
Windows 8.1Supported AMD ProcessorsSupported Intel ProcessorsN/A
Windows 10 Enterprise LTSB 1507Supported AMD ProcessorsSupported Intel ProcessorsN/A
Windows 10 1511Supported AMD ProcessorsSupported Intel ProcessorsN/A
Windows 10 1607Supported AMD ProcessorsSupported Intel ProcessorsN/A
Windows 10 Enterprise LTSB 1607Supported AMD ProcessorsSupported Intel ProcessorsN/A
Windows 10 1703Supported AMD ProcessorsSupported Intel ProcessorsN/A
Windows 10 1709Supported AMD ProcessorsSupported Intel ProcessorsSupported Qualcomm Processors
Windows 10 1803Supported AMD ProcessorsSupported Intel ProcessorsSupported Qualcomm Processors
Windows 10 1809Supported AMD ProcessorsSupported Intel ProcessorsSupported Qualcomm Processors
Windows 10 Enterprise LTSC 1809Supported AMD ProcessorsSupported Intel ProcessorsN/A
Windows 10 1903Supported AMD ProcessorsSupported Intel ProcessorsSupported Qualcomm Processors
Windows 10 1909Supported AMD ProcessorsSupported Intel ProcessorsSupported Qualcomm Processors
Windows 10 2004Supported AMD ProcessorsSupported Intel ProcessorsSupported Qualcomm Processors
Windows 10 20H2Supported AMD ProcessorsSupported Intel ProcessorsSupported Qualcomm Processors
Windows 10 21H1Supported AMD ProcessorsSupported Intel ProcessorsSupported Qualcomm Processors
Windows 10 21H2Supported AMD ProcessorsSupported Intel ProcessorsSupported Qualcomm Processors
Windows 10 Enterprise LTSC 2021Supported AMD ProcessorsSupported Intel ProcessorsN/A
Windows 11Supported AMD ProcessorsSupported Intel ProcessorsSupported Qualcomm Processors
 

theluggage

macrumors G3
Jul 29, 2011
8,011
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Yes, you are definitely violating the EULA, and if you were a business, there would probably be severe penalties if Microsoft audited your software.
Not having pored over the entire Windows 11 EULA, I put a caveat that running it on M1 might still violate the license. If you want to claim that it's definitely a violation then feel free to post relevant references.

So far, you're quoting the system requirements, not the EULA. System requirements, support, activation and licensing are separate issues. There'd have to be specific language in the EULA restricting the license to officially supported hardware to make it a violation (we're talking full licenses here - not the OEM ones which are only valid on the hardware they shipped with). E.g. the MacOS EULA is clearly riddled with references to "Apple branded hardware".

C.f. the previous situation when the download was clearly marked as a beta and you had to agree to a separate "insider preview" agreement.
 

bobcomer

macrumors 601
May 18, 2015
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Not having pored over the entire Windows 11 EULA, I put a caveat that running it on M1 might still violate the license. If you want to claim that it's definitely a violation then feel free to post relevant references.

So far, you're quoting the system requirements, not the EULA. System requirements, support, activation and licensing are separate issues. There'd have to be specific language in the EULA restricting the license to officially supported hardware to make it a violation (we're talking full licenses here - not the OEM ones which are only valid on the hardware they shipped with). E.g. the MacOS EULA is clearly riddled with references to "Apple branded hardware".

C.f. the previous situation when the download was clearly marked as a beta and you had to agree to a separate "insider preview" agreement.
You're right, I shouldn't have said EULA, I'd rather not read it to find out. But as for minimum processor *requirements* to purchase and run Windows on don't you get? The processor *requirements* are the same for OEM and retail Windows.

As for Apple, ask them if they think Hackintoshes are legally licensed that would pass a software audit.

On insider, the more I read about it, the more I think it has problems with licensing too. I already wont use it for work, and I might not even keep it around.

Microsoft could make it all legal, but they haven't yet. Hopefully they will in the future, but until then, as an IT guy, to me it's not licensable except on a qualcomm processor machine that can run it.
 

theluggage

macrumors G3
Jul 29, 2011
8,011
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You're right, I shouldn't have said EULA, I'd rather not read it to find out. But as for minimum processor *requirements* to purchase and run Windows on don't you get? The processor *requirements* are the same for OEM and retail Windows.
The document you linked was the rules for Windows hardware developers and refers to "Customer Systems that include Windows Products" - i.e. it's telling people making/re-selling hardware that they can't bundle windows with non-approved hardware.

Parallels is letting people download a production build of W11 on ARM and buy a full retail license direct from Microsoft. Obviously they're confident that that doesn't count as "including" Windows, and since they've been openly doing that for months now and haven't been sued yet by Microsoft that's likely true.

All that matters for end-users is whether the EULA for that version is restricted to "approved" systems. I can't even find the Windows 11 EULA online and, like you, don't feel inclined to pore through it, but it certainly wasn't the case for Windows 10.

As for Apple, ask them if they think Hackintoshes are legally licensed that would pass a software audit.
The MacOS EULA is quite explicit in only applying to "Apple Branded Hardware" - plus there's no way of getting any sort of proof-of-purchase for MacOS other than by buying a Mac. So, no.

I suspect if you showed the Mac running an activated copy of Windows and a receipt for a full retail Windows license with a matching license key (which would be 100% legit on an Intel Mac) you'd be fine unless the auditor was really determined to find fault (in which case they'd probably find 101 other cases of you breaching software licenses).

I think more serious for business use is that the software is totally unsupported by Microsoft, so if next Tuesday's essential security patch breaks it, that's just tough.
 

Gerdi

macrumors 6502
Apr 25, 2020
449
301
They actually have a Rosetta 2 like situation. 32-bit x86 emulation on it is crap (and wouldn't work on Apple Silicon as Apple Silicon versions of ARM64, from A11 and newer, do not have 32-bit instruction sets of any kind), but it works. 64-bit x86 emulation is apparently better. But it's totally a thing. Is it as well performing as Rosetta 2 is? I don't believe so. But it is there and it does work okay.

Small correction. 32-bit x86 emulation does a translation to ARM64 and not ARM32 and hence does work on Apple Silicon. With x86-64 emulation you get typical emulation speed of 60-70% native without any HW support - so relatively close to Rosetta 2, which has HW support on Apple Silicon.
 
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Yebubbleman

macrumors 603
May 20, 2010
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Los Angeles, CA
Small correction. 32-bit x86 emulation does a translation to ARM64 and not ARM32 and hence does work on Apple Silicon. With x86-64 emulation you get typical emulation speed of 60-70% native without any HW support - so relatively close to Rosetta 2, which has HW support on Apple Silicon.
32-bit x86 Windows code will not work on an installation of Windows for ARM64 running as a VM on an Apple Silicon Mac. The translation isn't 32-bit x86 to ARM64 directly; it's by way of 32-bit ARM, which is supported on currently shipping Windows for ARM64 devices, but not any Apple Silicon SoC newer than A10. A11 and onwards (including the A14-based M1 family of SoCs and the A15-based M2 family of SoCs) do not support running any 32-bit ARM code of any kind.

The way this manifests itself in a Windows for ARM64 VM running on an Apple Silicon Mac is that some of the Windows Store Apps, which are 32-bit ARM apps and not full ARM64, just don't run and error out.
 
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Lihp8270

macrumors 65816
Dec 31, 2016
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You're missing my point. There is no UEFI on Apple Silicon Macs. Period. Microsoft would need to engineer a bootloader for Windows for ARM64 that made it work with iBoot.
How do Microsoft produce anything like this. Without suitable hardware documentation from Apple?

The fact Windows does not run on Mx is 100% down to Apple.

Even a raspberryPi will boot and run windows for arm without virtualisation. You can be sure MS haven’t made a custom version just for them.
 

leman

macrumors Core
Oct 14, 2008
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32-bit x86 Windows code will not work on an installation of Windows for ARM64 running as a VM on an Apple Silicon Mac. The translation isn't 32-bit x86 to ARM64 directly; it's by way of 32-bit ARM, which is supported on currently shipping Windows for ARM64 devices, but not any Apple Silicon SoC newer than A10. A11 and onwards (including the A14-based M1 family of SoCs and the A15-based M2 family of SoCs) do not support running any 32-bit ARM code of any kind.

The way this manifests itself in a Windows for ARM64 VM running on an Apple Silicon Mac is that some of the Windows Store Apps, which are 32-bit ARM apps and not full ARM64, just don't run and error out.

Since I am actually able to run 32-bit Windows software on my M1 Mac under parallels I’m quite sure you are not correct. Besides… why would they translate it to 32-bit ARM? Way much more work this way. Aarch64 is a better target, unless you want to do the work twice.
 

throAU

macrumors G3
Feb 13, 2012
9,198
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Perth, Western Australia
Not talking about the legality. Obviously Windows on Arm is a thing that people can download and install manually through the Insider program and people use that to virtualize Arm computers via Parallel Desktop.

But people have gotten Linux working fine on M1 computers. What's the actual technical reason that someone can't figure out a way to install Windows 10 or 11 on Arm in the same way? Surely it can't be that there are proprietary drivers required for M1 that Apple somehow developed *for* Linux, right? It would have no interest in doing that.

It just seems weird to me that there's not a physical way to get one unsupported OS (Windows on Arm) booting on M1 if another unsupported OS (Linux on Arm) works.

Apple hasn't put any effort into it (e.g., an ARM version of bootcamp) because there's no legal way to run it on their hardware as yet.
 

leman

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Oct 14, 2008
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Apple hasn't put any effort into it (e.g., an ARM version of bootcamp) because there's no legal way to run it on their hardware as yet.

Are you suggesting that Apple will start putting effort if there would be a legal way?
 

leman

macrumors Core
Oct 14, 2008
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The fact Windows does not run on Mx is 100% down to Apple.

This is 100% correct. Apple could have made Apple Silicon compatible to whatever Qualcomm is making and they could also develop drivers for Windows. Didn't happen, isn't going to happen. They would be quite dumb to invest dozens of millions and divert significant OS-level developer talent just to boot a competitor's OS.
 
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MandiMac

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Feb 25, 2012
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Apple hasn't put any effort into it (e.g., an ARM version of bootcamp) because there's no legal way to run it on their hardware as yet.
And Apple doesn't have anything to gain from it, too. Users should stick to macOS of course.
 
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theluggage

macrumors G3
Jul 29, 2011
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Even a raspberryPi will boot and run windows for arm without virtualisation. You can be sure MS haven’t made a custom version just for them.
Actually, MS did officially release the "Windows 10 IoT Core" for Raspberry Pi - as the name suggests it's not the full Windows desktop OS but it could explain why the Windows kernel can be persuaded to run on the Pi. Also, the Pi uses a Broadcom system-on-a-chip which wasn't made exclusively for the Pi, so it's possible that Broadcom or MS have written Windows drivers for the GPU etc.

However, the real point is that even though - even after a lot of hacking from the large Pi community - WoA will boot and run on the Pi, it's pretty unusable, and lacks a lot of essential drivers. There's a lot more to producing a stable Apple Silicon version of Windows than just producing a bootloader.

Apple hasn't put any effort into it (e.g., an ARM version of bootcamp) because there's no legal way to run it on their hardware as yet.
There's apparently been a legal (if unsupported) way since about last October when it became possible to install & license a "production" version of W11 on Parallels without going through the insider program. I say "apparently legal" since it doesn't involve signing up to an evaluation program Parallels have been openly advocating it for the best part of a year and haven't been sued into a smoking hole in the ground.

Bootcamp for Intel Macs probably only happened because it was "low-hanging fruit" and Intel Macs were very, very close to being regular PC clones - all that was needed was to add a BIOS compatibility module for EFI and you could pretty much just install and run a a regular Windows installer DVD & then hunt down bog standard drivers from Intel, AMD, NVIDIA et. al. Apart from that, Bootcamp was really just a point-and-click tool to help regular users partition disks, tweak the Windows installer and set up a dual-boot system.

Making Windows-on-ARM run natively on Apple Silicon isn't impossible but it's a lot more complex than Bootcamp ever was and would probably need both Microsoft and Apple to collaborate on that... and why would they?

Apple Silicon is, for the moment, way ahead of anything Microsoft/Qualcomm produce - with properly optimised drivers, WoA on M1 would thrash any other WoA machine currently on the market (the reports from people running WoA on Parallels are enough to predict that). That sounds cool - it could even be the thing that makes the industry take WoA seriously - but at the expense of MS handing Apple a near-exclusive on ARM PCs.

Microsoft may make a small, strategic range of "Surface" PCs but their real business model is software and services - the backbone of the PC industry is Dell, HP, Lenovo et. al. and an army of smaller PC makers who will be seriously ticked off if they can't compete (and Apple ain't gonna be selling Apple Silicon to Dell anytime soon). What MS will want to see is a future Apple Silicon-killer from Qualcomm or suchlike that other PC makers can use. Endorsing Apple Silicon now would set an awfully high bar, and encourage direct comparisons between Apple and PC hardware, without OS differences getting in the way (currently, many Windows customers won't care if the M1 is better if it doesn't run their software).

Apple's main interest is providing a hardware platform for MacOS and their software and services - and a big part of the switch to Apple Silicon was to allow them to tightly link their OS and hardware. They've got a big head-start in terms of performance vs. power consumption at the moment, which is great for laptops, but at the higher end they're already very dependent on software being optimised to take full advantage of Apple Silicon. As other chip makers play catch-up on raw power, the tight integration between MacOS and AS is going to become their main selling point. Committing to supporting any 3rd-party OS (especially Windows, who's users tend to be obsessed with backwards compatibility) - would put constraints on how radically they could change future hardware, whereas now they only have to worry about MacOS.

...plus, of course, for the many people who just need Windows for a few apps not available for MacOS or testing, virtualisation is the better solution anyway - c.f. having to inflexibly partition your SSD, reboot every time you want to switch OS, and getting Windows to read/write APFS and/or MacOS to write to NTFS etc.
 

bobcomer

macrumors 601
May 18, 2015
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Since I am actually able to run 32-bit Windows software on my M1 Mac under parallels I’m quite sure you are not correct. Besides… why would they translate it to 32-bit ARM? Way much more work this way. Aarch64 is a better target, unless you want to do the work twice.
As far as I know, you're correct, at least for the most part. There are a few oddities in things that don't run on WoA, but I never discovered a reason. Most 32-bit Windows code will work.

I have one app, a 5250 display emulator, that WoA blocks from running, and no other version of Windows does that. So there may be something weird in its code that can't be translated to ARM64.
 
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gank41

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Mar 25, 2008
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As I posted earlier, Microsoft explains how their App Translation works here:


It's very similar to how Apple does it with Rosetta 2. So, yes, in theory, if Microsoft was able to run Windows on bare metal AS, it would run quite well and would translate x86 apps. It's doing that already, but at present its Apple that's ALSO doing "App Translation" to get Windows running.
 

jdb8167

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Nov 17, 2008
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32-bit x86 Windows code will not work on an installation of Windows for ARM64 running as a VM on an Apple Silicon Mac. The translation isn't 32-bit x86 to ARM64 directly; it's by way of 32-bit ARM, which is supported on currently shipping Windows for ARM64 devices, but not any Apple Silicon SoC newer than A10. A11 and onwards (including the A14-based M1 family of SoCs and the A15-based M2 family of SoCs) do not support running any 32-bit ARM code of any kind.

The way this manifests itself in a Windows for ARM64 VM running on an Apple Silicon Mac is that some of the Windows Store Apps, which are 32-bit ARM apps and not full ARM64, just don't run and error out.
I love it when someone says something with such authority and yet they are completely and utterly wrong. Windows on ARM translates 32-bit x86 to ARM64 code. Why don't you do some research before making yourself look foolish.
 
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haralds

macrumors 68030
Jan 3, 2014
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Silicon Valley, CA
32-bit x86 Windows code will not work on an installation of Windows for ARM64 running as a VM on an Apple Silicon Mac. The translation isn't 32-bit x86 to ARM64 directly; it's by way of 32-bit ARM, which is supported on currently shipping Windows for ARM64 devices, but not any Apple Silicon SoC newer than A10. A11 and onwards (including the A14-based M1 family of SoCs and the A15-based M2 family of SoCs) do not support running any 32-bit ARM code of any kind.

The way this manifests itself in a Windows for ARM64 VM running on an Apple Silicon Mac is that some of the Windows Store Apps, which are 32-bit ARM apps and not full ARM64, just don't run and error out.
Incorrect. The Windows translation layer runs 32-bit apps just fine. Our apps work like a charm in both 32-bit and 64-bit versions. Some of us actually develop in Parallels on Windows 11 with Visual Studio. The performance is pretty good. We also have a macOS version and most of my developers prefer a Mac.
 
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haralds

macrumors 68030
Jan 3, 2014
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Silicon Valley, CA
Parallels generates a big enough splash that if they violated of Microsoft's preferences you would have seen legal action or code blocking.
In fact, I suspect they are getting preferential developer support from both Apple and Microsoft. What they are doing works extremely well and has been stable through multiple OS versions both for guest and host. You do not get that without inside collaboration.
 
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