Why Hasn't Apple TV Exploded In Popularity?

[motulist]

<snip>

You're half right and half wrong, imo. The thing that made the ipod explode in the first place is that everyone already had big MP3 libraries that they had downloaded off of napster (remember, the itunes store didn't exist until a couple of years later after a couple of generations of iPods were already released and mega-successful). And they also had big CD libraries that iTunes allowed them to easily rip onto their ipods (which atv can't do due to legal issues).

The iPod was successful because it allowed all the halfway tech savvy people to take their existing CDs and their existing downloaded MP3 library with them in a small pocket friendly device that didn't cost a crazy amount of money and that was pretty easy to load and manage your music library through. The iPod didn't become a mega success because grandmas and grandpas were using it at first, that didn't come till many years later after the ipod was already a huge success. The non-tech savvy market success came as a direct consequence of the reasonably tech-savvy crowd making it a success in the first place. Grandma and grandpa were never gonna get an ipod until johnny kept telling them how great it was.

The atv is NOT following that same path to market success however. You're right, the reason why the ipod was a success is because of content, but not the kind that could be bought through the itunes store, it was because the ipod played the content that most early adopters already had tons of, mp3 and CD. If the ipod was designed so it could only play AAC, then it would've been a spectacular flop. Yet the atv doesn't play the vast majority of formats that most people already have (especially early adopters). The atv doesn't play dvds and it doesn't play avi. So if your video device doesn't play the formats that most people already have their existing videos saved as, then the device will never see anywhere near the success level of the ipod.

 

[dynaflash]

hmmm, interesting take on it. Seems to me we would have to define "Exploded in Popularity". I would suggest that the napster crowd was not responsible for the iPod's "explosion of popularity", though I suppose it helped early on. Having said that, in the pre-iPod days there were plenty of mp3 players already on the market for the somewhat geeky napster crowd to use. iirc the iPod 's real success generally paralleled the iTunes store's success. Though I am just musing.

At any rate you do make a good point about iTunes being able to rip cd's natively. It is fair to day that if iTunes could rip dvd's by itself the atv might enjoy more popularity (as much as I would like to think so, I doubt grandma and grandpa would get into converting with HB ). At any rate, I think we agree that content is king. Who knows, maybe some day. Until then I for one am glad the atv is still around.

 

[motulist]

hmmm, interesting take on it. Seems to me we would have to define "Exploded in Popularity". I would suggest that the napster crowd was not responsible for the iPod's "explosion of popularity", though I suppose it helped early on. Having said that, in the pre-iPod days there were plenty of mp3 players already on the market for the somewhat geeky napster crowd to use. iirc the iPod 's real success generally paralleled the iTunes store's success. Though I am just musing.

Neither the iPod (released in 4th quarter 2001) nor the itunes store (opened 2nd quarter of 2003) lead to the iPod's smash hit success.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ipod#Sales

The things that look like they clearly were the key difference in making the iPod a smash hit was when Apple started coming out with several different models of iPod that attracted different market segments. The big jump in sales happened when they released the iPod Mini (1st quarter 2004) and the first ipod with a color screen (iPod Photo released in 4th quarter 2004) and the iPod Shuffle (1st quarter of 2005). But surely none of that would've even happened if it wasn't a product that could play most people's existing content to begin with.

 

[Gaelic2]

These two post demonstrates why TV hasn't hit mainstream yet: people just don't get the concept.

They're too embedded in the old ways of watching TV, recording what you want to see again later and buying DVDs for video that you want to keep in a collection.

Gaelic: TV does not connect to your 20" iMac. You plug it in to your 52"LCD. You can cancel your Dish Network subscription and instead rent and buy only the content you want to watch on TV. I did.

If you already have a well managed collection of media on iTunes, TV will bring it effortlessly to your big screen.

TV is ahead of its time, just as iPod was when it first was released. People thought iPod was cool but it was expensive and they were probably waiting for it to have a CD player and a radio recorder feature.

Give it some time and this à la carte method of watching media will become ubiquitous.

In the meantime, Apple is smart to maintain TV as a hobby so that it's immune from reports of its failure and predictions of its imminent demise. After all its just a hobby.

I have a DVR and can record anything without buying Apple TV. There are NO DVDs I'd want to collect or buy or rip for future use. Once I've seen one, I've seen it and don't need to again. I fully understand the concept but you have to realize it isn't for all!

 

[dynaflash]

I'm not into itunes and drm media, so itunes integration is no big deal for me: But the lack of 1080p and having the thing to hack to see more formats is a show stopper for me.

I totally understand your point. However, again to answer the topic, the folks the atv needs to attract to be that popular frankly don't have a clue what drm is nor care. They want to click and watch (preferably one click at most, and without getting off the couch). As far as 1080p goes, many likely could care less about blu-ray. I am not trying to be condescending but more importantly realistic.

As an example, do you think the average iPod user (meaning the average user based on total units sold) has a clue what bitrate their iTunes music purchases comes in ? I would submit not. Frankly they don't care. It's quick, convenient and microwave easy.

To take it to video for the atv. What exactly do you mean by 1080p ? You just want the atv to play video that is 1080 pixels high ? Hardware wise it can no problem. I would suggest its more important to be able to play h.264 at a bitrate that makes for good quality video and with some of the h.264 goodies that give you a truly high quality picture like cabac and bframes, etc. Heck, you can encode 1080p video at 1000 kbps with cavlc and no bframes that a performa can almost play. But it will look like junk. I would submit that the atv is better off playing hi quality 720p that can be upscaled while retaining its quality.

But the point is moot, because I still believe that the average user the atv is targeted at is fine with the HD rental quality on the iTunes store and likely does not even own a 1080p tv much less wants to go through what it takes to get ahold of the right content.

Most folks I see here object to the atv and compare it to setting up a mac mini or the like as a media server. Which is great, but again I don't see the average person that wants the convenience of an atv going through what that takes to make that work.

Its kind of like the atv esata mod. To me its a no brainer and I cannot fathom why one wouldn't just go ahead with it. To me its obvious and removes many of the atv's current limitations. But to most its a non starter. I do not exemplify the *average* user.

Oh, well. Just rambling.

 

[dynaflash]

Neither the iPod (released in 4th quarter 2001) nor the itunes store (opened 2nd quarter of 2003) lead to the iPod's smash hit success.

Okay, in the interest of not derailing this thread, I will let that slide (wonders how the iPod could not lead to the iPod's success).

But as i said before, the inability of iTunes to convert existing video (dvd, and the like) is admittedly a problem.

Apologies to the OP for letting things get too sidetracked due to the iPod analogy. My bad.

 

[queshy]

It needs to be cheaper, and there needs to be more content. The canadian TV show selection is lousy at best.

 

[trip1ex]

Exactly what can you do with an ATV that you can't do without all the other devices many folks have? Like Cable/Satellite, Tivo/DVR, DVD player, iPod, iPhone, ...

What am I missing out on exactly?

I know I would gain some convenience and pay more for that privilege, but other than that????

 

[motulist]

wonders how the iPod could not lead to the iPod's success

I was using that word in the way you talked about it, you said "explosive" success, and that's how I was using it. We were talking about what factors led to the "explosive" part of the success of the iPod, and I showed that it wasn't due to the itunes store. In fact what you just said makes my point perfectly. It was the initial couple of generations that lead to ALL of the iPod's eventual success. If Apple didn't get the early adopters initially (by supporting the CDs and napster-gotten MP3s that they all had lots of) then the iPod product would've died immediately and never had the chance to become the smash hit it eventually became.

 

[dynaflash]

I showed that it wasn't due to the itunes store.

um, okay I will acquiesce. The iPod without the iTunes store would still be a raging success. < once again apologizes to the OP>

 

[Donar]

What exactly do you mean by 1080p ? You just want the atv to play video that is 1080 pixels high ? Hardware wise it can no problem. I would suggest its more important to be able to play h.264 at a bitrate that makes for good quality video and with some of the h.264 goodies that give you a truly high quality picture like cabac and bframes, etc.

The p means progressive, where i is interlaced and a 50 Cent Chip in your TV will do the job of deinterlacing. Ah just forgot about bitrate constraints and other constraints...

I do not know why the aTV has not taken of yet, but one factor could be that none of my friends (or of other "could be" early adopters) will probably not see an aTV in my House and think "wow thats cool". One of my colleagues recommended a Popcornhour to me for streaming media when we talked about the topic, he didn't even mention the aTV... so there is the "problem" that Mom & Pop do not have the media and also that people who have the media will choose other devices over the aTV because of more supported media.

 

[ayale99]

You're absolutely right. I'm not getting it, as I said in my post.

Hey Tilpots, Why don't you quote my entire line? Nice way to take a short clip out of context. Do you work for Fox News?

 

[zombitronic]

It would explode in popularity if it did one thing...let me watch TV. They don't even have to build in DVR support. Someone would hack it, we'd all spread the hack, and we'd be left with TVs (I consider a TV to be something that you watch broadcast television with, not something that displays media from a computer...that's just a monitor) with sweet interfaces.

 

[Fuchal]

I would only buy an Apple TV if it has Hulu + Netflix streaming support, and DivX/XviD support.

 

[APPLENEWBIE]

Content is too expensive. I can rent new releases on DVD from machines throughout my local area for $1/night.

Most of my ATV content is free, captured on my mac with EyeTV. Or I can easily watch movies ripped with handbreak or music, purchased on iTunes or CD's..

ATV is expensive considering I already have dvd players in multiple rooms hooked up to multiple tvs.

It's easy to stream iTunes content...

Lack of content. It doesn't cover all the bases that cable does. No Olympics. No sports. It's missing many tv shows. No news. etc. So it really can't replace my cable subscription as much I would like it too. Plus cable gets to be quite the value when you have a family of 4.

See above, I can capture pretty much anything I want to watch over free broadcastTV, but then, I am also really sick of all the crapola programing on satellite / cable...

Content storage. Another big issue. Just where are you going to put all your purchases? You really not only have to store them, but also back them up. One bad hard drive and you could lose your entire collection.

So use a backup... Do you keep backup copies of all the DVD's and CD's you own?

Movie downloads not that much more convenient than dvds.

Except that you never have to leave your chair...

And last Tivo makes my TV content commercial free and on-demand. And it's easy to use. You can also do YOuTube and play music through it etc.

Like the EyeTV on my mac... and YouTube on the ATV

Just some thoughts... no offence intended... if any is taken...

I really think that the problem with ATV is it is really REALLY hard to explain to people what it is, and what it does...

 

[APPLENEWBIE]

It doesn't appeal to me because the 360 got here first, and does pretty much the same thing

And, as an added bonus, it has that nice roaring sound...

 

[ravenvii]

I love the idea of the TV, but until they introduce subtitles or closed captioning on a MAJORITY of their movies and television shows, I'm not going to buy one (nor buy/rent anything on the iTunes Store)

 

[Kebabselector]

It needs a few large improvements to be widespread:

(2) DVR Functionality

Yesterday I bought a Panasonic DVR, which records TV (freeview - uk) to it's 160gb hdd. Also has a DVD which can upscale. O.k. it cost £80 more that AppleTV. However within half a hour of setting up it was set to record a TV program which makes it more valuable to me than AppleTV.

 

[Tilpots]

Hey Tilpots, Why don't you quote my entire line? Nice way to take a short clip out of context. Do you work for Fox News?

Ouch. I hate Fox News. Too bad you can't get it with Live with the TV.


To be fair, he's your entire post:

You're not getting it. Adding a DVD player to AppleTV is like adding a CD player to the iPod.
(See Ipedro's analogy)

If DVD's where the only thing that you do with a TV, you might have an argument. Plus, adding a CD player to an iPod would make it real hard to fit one in your pocket.

 

[douglasgottlieb]

Jump Starting ATV

For AppleTV to be REALLY useful, it needs to record (and feed my iPod). I don't buy TV shows from the iTMS, but that's probably what is preventing the recording functionality. Too bad.

 

[trip1ex]

Most of my ATV content is free, captured on my mac with EyeTV. Or I can easily watch movies ripped with handbreak or music, purchased on iTunes or CD's..



It's easy to stream iTunes content...




See above, I can capture pretty much anything I want to watch over free broadcastTV, but then, I am also really sick of all the crapola programing on satellite / cable...



So use a backup... Do you keep backup copies of all the DVD's and CD's you own?



Except that you never have to leave your chair...




Like the EyeTV on my mac... and YouTube on the ATV

Just some thoughts... no offence intended... if any is taken...

I really think that the problem with ATV is it is really REALLY hard to explain to people what it is, and what it does...

No offense is taken except your reply has little to do with my post.

I think your reply actually backs me up on why the ATV hasn't taken off.

 

[nordesmic]

I tend to agree with what a lot of Dynaflash has said. The AppleTV is designed to be a mass-market consumer product not a tech-enthusiast product. The two main things that a consumer understands are price and ease of use.

In Australia the movie store has just been released and the movies are 20-50% more expensive than DVDs with very little obvious benefit to the consumer. If Apple wants to draw people from their already working DVD players they need to lower the price of films and of the AppleTV box itself. Obviously this is difficult because the movie studios still want their share of money and don't want DVD sales to be cannibalised.

Some advertising could show how music, photos and movies can be streamed easily from a computer. The photo and music streaming needs to be promoted more as well. While everyone has a DVD player, very few of my non tech savvy friends have a device that can do this. Plus they have 1000's of photos and songs which they would love to be able to play on the TV.

 

[SpaceMagic]

I would say price in the UK.

£200 for the 40gb and £3.50 for new release rental :O

The rental price doesn't bother me so much. £2.99 would probably be better.

However, 200£ for the device is extreme. You could get a whole windows media center PC built for this with built in DVD and Digital TV tuner for this price.

I would like the Apple TV to be £150, include a DVD player or find a way of streaming a dvd from a computer elsewhere in the house like the MacBook Air.

Although I'd like things to go all digital (i don't like physcial medias like DVD), they are still popular. I own hundreds of DVDs and really can't be bothered converting them all to MP4s! Does Apple realise how long this takes!!

Content is getting much better in the UK though, and I'm happy with the store.

 

[clu10]

if it doubled as a blu-ray or dvd player id definatly buy it, but it dosent do anything my imac cant

 

[Doctor Doom]

if you put a music cd into a computer with itunes, it asks if you want that disc to be ripped to itunes (which is technically ilegal in some countries still). If you try to drag a video file of any kind into itunes it rejects the file. i dont understand why you can't convert video to iPod/Tv formats from within iTunes, it should be that simple, this is . In an ideal world something like handbrake would be a part of iTunes, but thats simply never gonna happen. Its surely apples job to get as close to that as legally possible. It would then be far easier for the "average person" to take content from old formats and make them digital.