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Why is Big Sur so ugly?
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Correct; it's HIDEOUS!
It was better in earlier betas. But the flat UI crowd just had to send their feedback so Apple turned it once again into more of the same. Same for iOS 14, it's still stuck in iOS 7's UI design, complete with iOS 7's music icon coming back.
By chance do you have screenshots showing the elements that changed from early beta to current release? That would be interesting for comparison, as I did not participate in any of the beta's.
No sadly I do not, as I got fed up with Beta 4 flattening aspects that were previously not flat, downgrading the battery icon in preferences, and switched to Linux. But in another thread or was it this one, someone confirmed that the final was flattened at least in the battery department. When this thread started, the OP complained tons about 'wahhh it's skeuomorphic!' and most went along with them, so my guess is Apple listened to the fans of flat UI once again. Especially given that I have experienced iOS 14 and it's the same icons as iOS 7, including the music icon being the same one used in iOS 7 (the previous one was better) and I've seen that icon in Beta 4 of Big Sur. I saw it all coming. So, Linux, 3D dock, and proper traffic lights it is!
I did post somewhere a page back the changes to the battery section of system prefs from first Beta to Beta 4.
If 7 years of it ain't enough, the fact folks still hate skeuomorphism, the fact flat UI prevails tells me we're stuck with it forever, and the only way forward is flattening it even more until all we're left with is a command line, or voice control entirely. No OEM is doing skeuomorphic anymore. No one caters to those who wanted more, not less, of it. The possible future of a holographic screen will never happen. I'm accused of 'holding back progress' but it's the fans of DeskMate, DOS, Flat UI in general who are holding everyone back, not I.
As much as I adore my Galaxy S4, Relay, etc, eventually cellular networks supporting 4G will die, or apps will stop working. I just want a modern phone with a 3.5" display, slider keyboard, expandable storage, and a skeuo UI. It's not much to ask. I'm not alone, I've seen threads elsewhere of folks wanting iOS 6 back or the elements of it in a modern update. Sadly everything thinks the 80s UI design is 'modern' today. I don't get it, and no, I will never get used to it. Modern cars in 2020 have skeuo UIs on their touchscreens. Why can't laptops, phones, or TVs?
I did post somewhere a page back the changes to the battery section of system prefs from first Beta to Beta 4.
If 7 years of it ain't enough, the fact folks still hate skeuomorphism, the fact flat UI prevails tells me we're stuck with it forever, and the only way forward is flattening it even more until all we're left with is a command line, or voice control entirely. No OEM is doing skeuomorphic anymore. No one caters to those who wanted more, not less, of it. The possible future of a holographic screen will never happen. I'm accused of 'holding back progress' but it's the fans of DeskMate, DOS, Flat UI in general who are holding everyone back, not I.
As much as I adore my Galaxy S4, Relay, etc, eventually cellular networks supporting 4G will die, or apps will stop working. I just want a modern phone with a 3.5" display, slider keyboard, expandable storage, and a skeuo UI. It's not much to ask. I'm not alone, I've seen threads elsewhere of folks wanting iOS 6 back or the elements of it in a modern update. Sadly everything thinks the 80s UI design is 'modern' today. I don't get it, and no, I will never get used to it. Modern cars in 2020 have skeuo UIs on their touchscreens. Why can't laptops, phones, or TVs?
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I thought the warning boxes were so slick in previous versions of macOS. Not a fan at all of darkening entire window and prompts being dead center. It doesn’t feel like a Mac experience to me.
Can’t put my finger on my dislike for Mail changes... it all looks washed out or something. That inbox text taking up a good chunk of the toolbar seems bizarre. I have always disabled preview pane to keep a small footprint so maybe that’s the issue.
Can’t put my finger on my dislike for Mail changes... it all looks washed out or something. That inbox text taking up a good chunk of the toolbar seems bizarre. I have always disabled preview pane to keep a small footprint so maybe that’s the issue.
For me, Big Sur Mail is too 'simple' for lack of a better term. It feels more like a widget than the desktop app it once was. No more toolbar, no way to (that I could figure out how to anyway) switch inboxes or folders.
Dark mode and dark UI exists for a reason. It's compensating for a 'feature' of flat design known as whitespace or padding. Obviously they're admiting a problem exists but won't fix the actual problem (lack of 3 dimensional depth) and features such as dark mode, dark UI elements, and night shift are mere compensations for the eye strain caused by flat UI designs.
Back in the monochrome era, many old dumb terminals had an amber background with black text. to compensate for eye strain caused by continual staring into such a display, a 'reverse video' switch was there to switch to amber text on black background.
Dark mode and dark UI exists for a reason. It's compensating for a 'feature' of flat design known as whitespace or padding. Obviously they're admiting a problem exists but won't fix the actual problem (lack of 3 dimensional depth) and features such as dark mode, dark UI elements, and night shift are mere compensations for the eye strain caused by flat UI designs.
Back in the monochrome era, many old dumb terminals had an amber background with black text. to compensate for eye strain caused by continual staring into such a display, a 'reverse video' switch was there to switch to amber text on black background.
after all the betas, and all this time, i find myself just... using my mac, doing my work, surfing the web, texting, emailing... all the usual things, and not stressing about icons, menu bar spacing; anything GUI.
ppl here get so caught up in nitpicking, they've stopped using their macs; they're busy dissecting the OS.
i've watched this same thing for as long as i've been on this forum, with each new OS, and am convinced that some people are simply afraid of change.
watch, when apple's next OS appears, how many people will long for big sur's look, including a lot of people who're whining about it now.
just my own rant, of course!
ppl here get so caught up in nitpicking, they've stopped using their macs; they're busy dissecting the OS.
i've watched this same thing for as long as i've been on this forum, with each new OS, and am convinced that some people are simply afraid of change.
watch, when apple's next OS appears, how many people will long for big sur's look, including a lot of people who're whining about it now.
just my own rant, of course!
My complaint about BS is basically all the points about to his focus on touch screens, and the distance of menu elements and on the top bar. The icons and the whitish theme, all IOsed, are not in my preferences in respect the original ones with different shapes, or the metal older theme.
for those interested,
big sur can be themed, it works using theme engine, i was able to tweak the colours and remove the horrible highcontrast white everywhere from the light theme. as a first step, i was able to put back some light gray like it was before. with a bit of patience most of the system could be made to look like previous version of macos. i'm no longer forced to use that ugly new big sur theme. what a relief
big sur can be themed, it works using theme engine, i was able to tweak the colours and remove the horrible highcontrast white everywhere from the light theme. as a first step, i was able to put back some light gray like it was before. with a bit of patience most of the system could be made to look like previous version of macos. i'm no longer forced to use that ugly new big sur theme. what a relief
I haven't found a single theme engine that works past Yosemite. I can't even change any icon of system apps with SiP off. I can't even revert the traffic lights to the glossy Snow Leopard versions. Best I can do is replace the stock apps with skeuo alternatives I found by scouring the Mac App Store, and hide the others somehow by shoving them into a folder on a far-off place I'll never look for.
Let me know when there's a way (paid, in fact, I'll do anything) to get the Montain Lion UI back. Because so far the best I can come up with is running Parallels and Linux full screen in front of Big Sur.
Let me know when there's a way (paid, in fact, I'll do anything) to get the Montain Lion UI back. Because so far the best I can come up with is running Parallels and Linux full screen in front of Big Sur.
like i was saying in my last post, the theme engine app i listed works for me, i'm on big sur, apple m1 system. the downside is that it require disabling SIP, and there's a few steps needed from terminal to make it happen. but it does works. i can modify all the *.car files and as such make big sur look however it pleases me.
colours, icons, traffic lights, everything is modifiable.
this is just a small first step, i wanted to remove the highcontrast white from titlebar and toolbars.
see the finder window how they are now in gray instead.
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I've already got SiP off (last thing I want is my equipment or devices trying to protect me from myself) but if you got the instructions on how to bring the Mountain Lion UI back, skeuo and all, I'm ready for the link/PDF or whatever that explains it. I use Linux, I'm no newbie to the terminal.
i'm a linux user too ( i'm anticipating marcan's port and virtualization tools to come up on m1 by the way
about explaining how to do this, i don't have pdf or detailed instruction but, here's what i did:
- grab a copy of themeengine
- boot into recovery and disable sip:
- find out the name of your boot volume:
- mount a mirror of it (create a direcory for the mount point in your home dir, for example 'livemount' and mount):
- run themeengine with admin rights:
- open a *.car file, for example:
- use themeengine to modify the theme to your linking. (Aqua.car is the light theme)
- save the modified file, quit the app and make your change persistant:
- reboot, and 'voila'
( most of these info are already available on jslegendre repo, maybe i added just a little extra info to it, but not much)
if you just want to change the colours of titlebar/toolbar like me, you can look at the screenshot i posted earlier, it point to the element i have changed to do so. themeengine allow for copy/paste between various items as well as drag and drop import of bitmaps into Aqua.car's UI elements.
now if you wanted to do something deeper than just changing a colour, maybe you could grab Aqua.car from say catalina, and copy an element you wish to import, and paste it in the Aqua.car of big sur on a specific element. doing so will ask time and patience but it can be done. if you do, i'd be interested if you could share your modified Aqua.car
about explaining how to do this, i don't have pdf or detailed instruction but, here's what i did:
- grab a copy of themeengine
- boot into recovery and disable sip:
Code:
csrutil disable
csrutil authenticated-root disable- find out the name of your boot volume:
Code:
df -h
or
diskutil list- mount a mirror of it (create a direcory for the mount point in your home dir, for example 'livemount' and mount):
Code:
sudo mount -o nobrowse -t apfs /dev/disk4s5 /Users/<YOUR USER NAME>/livemount- run themeengine with admin rights:
Code:
sudo /Applications/ThemeEngine.app/Contents/MacOS/ThemeEngine- open a *.car file, for example:
Code:
/Users/<YOUR USER NAME>/livemount/System/Library/CoreServices/SystemAppearance.bundle/Contents/Resources/Aqua.car- use themeengine to modify the theme to your linking. (Aqua.car is the light theme)
- save the modified file, quit the app and make your change persistant:
Code:
sudo bless --mount /Users/<YOUR USER NAME>/livemount --bootefi --create-snapshot- reboot, and 'voila'
( most of these info are already available on jslegendre repo, maybe i added just a little extra info to it, but not much)
if you just want to change the colours of titlebar/toolbar like me, you can look at the screenshot i posted earlier, it point to the element i have changed to do so. themeengine allow for copy/paste between various items as well as drag and drop import of bitmaps into Aqua.car's UI elements.
now if you wanted to do something deeper than just changing a colour, maybe you could grab Aqua.car from say catalina, and copy an element you wish to import, and paste it in the Aqua.car of big sur on a specific element. doing so will ask time and patience but it can be done. if you do, i'd be interested if you could share your modified Aqua.car
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If I can go deeper, such as bringing back the glossy traffic lights, the Aqua buttons, metal brushed look in iTunes, etc or the skeuo calendar, Coverflow, all that, I'd be more than happy to share it. So far I want to start by changing the Finder, Safari, System Prefs, etc system icons to their counterparts in Mac OS X Mountain Lion, and getting those traffic lights back, and if I can accomplish that, go farther with bringing back Mountain Lion OS X apps in place of those system apps.
I've been angry since Yosemite released (was able to downgrade my old 2012 MBP until the HDD and mobo gave up the ghost) and iOS 7 released (and self-installed in the night while my iPad and iPhone 4 were plugged in). I came back to Apple after 6 years now in a mixed environment of old Samsung devices, an iPhone 6S, iPad 6, iPod touch 6, Apple TV 4K and regular Apple TV, and a new MacBook Pro. While I appreciate Apple dialing back some of the crazy of iOS 7 (such as signal dots, frosted glass, the bare looking Control Center, and battery icon) it still looks otherwise the same and that bugs me. Flat UI design bugs me. I might prefer 80's music, but most of the 80's was a disaster in regards to interior design, fashion, and especially computer UI design. Reliving it in a modern sense is, well, disturbing to me. And there seems to be no way out other than using old devices that are dying since VoLTE is being mandated.
Even small things such as round contact photos bug me (why is that even a thing, and even this forum commits that sin! Why did they go from square to round? what dictate of flat design required it?)
It doesn't help that I notice even the smallest thing. I can spot a vehicle in a full parking lot with a missing license plate, or a random 4-leaf clover without even trying, so noticing annoying UIbugs features annoys me.
I've been angry since Yosemite released (was able to downgrade my old 2012 MBP until the HDD and mobo gave up the ghost) and iOS 7 released (and self-installed in the night while my iPad and iPhone 4 were plugged in). I came back to Apple after 6 years now in a mixed environment of old Samsung devices, an iPhone 6S, iPad 6, iPod touch 6, Apple TV 4K and regular Apple TV, and a new MacBook Pro. While I appreciate Apple dialing back some of the crazy of iOS 7 (such as signal dots, frosted glass, the bare looking Control Center, and battery icon) it still looks otherwise the same and that bugs me. Flat UI design bugs me. I might prefer 80's music, but most of the 80's was a disaster in regards to interior design, fashion, and especially computer UI design. Reliving it in a modern sense is, well, disturbing to me. And there seems to be no way out other than using old devices that are dying since VoLTE is being mandated.
Even small things such as round contact photos bug me (why is that even a thing, and even this forum commits that sin! Why did they go from square to round? what dictate of flat design required it?)
It doesn't help that I notice even the smallest thing. I can spot a vehicle in a full parking lot with a missing license plate, or a random 4-leaf clover without even trying, so noticing annoying UI
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well, at least now you have the means to change it all. it will need some work and patience though but yes, from what i've seen about themeengine, i see no reasons this couldn't be achieved right now. for example changing traffic lights would just be a matter of drag and drop the asset you like visually in place of the new one. you could also design your own in pixelmator or such, but i think digging into apple old assets and copy/paste/drag and drop them into bigsur's aqua.car will be faster. anyway, i hope you persevere with it and do succeed. i'll be interested to see your results. possibly use your *.car files too.
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Only a few issues with macOS 11 so far: The window chrome on Safari takes up more space than the old one. So now I have less vertical screen space for browsing in windowed mode. Animations are a bit sluggish. And the dock shadow sometimes appears over a full screen app.
It feels a lot less polished than expected from Apple and doesn't bring anything new.
It feels a lot less polished than expected from Apple and doesn't bring anything new.
What will likely happen is what usually happens when I post my preferred UI screenshots:
a couple likes, five angrys, one haha, and a bunch of posts about how I'm 'living in the past, holding everyone back' and that my desktop config is ugly as hell, and them being glad I don't design for Apple or even so much as work for them. Or the rare insult that I worship Scott Forstall.
Still, I do prefer how simple changing the UI theme is in Linux via command line:
Code:
sudo apt-get install mate-desktop
sudo apt-get install cairodock@nickdalzell1
there will always be naysayers, if we had to listen to them, nothing would be accomplished because of what some might say about it. they have the right to dislike and doubt just like we have the right to try to set things as we prefer them to be. what people might or might not say wouldn't prevent me from trying and check things for myself anyway. when i started using linux around 1998 many people didn't know what it was, and when some did i had many comments about how useless it was and how i was loosing my time and such. that's how it goes i suppose.
there will always be naysayers, if we had to listen to them, nothing would be accomplished because of what some might say about it. they have the right to dislike and doubt just like we have the right to try to set things as we prefer them to be. what people might or might not say wouldn't prevent me from trying and check things for myself anyway. when i started using linux around 1998 many people didn't know what it was, and when some did i had many comments about how useless it was and how i was loosing my time and such. that's how it goes i suppose.
Could not agree more. As a designer, I have a massive dislike for flat design. I do not find it at all attractive, icons no longer have meaning, and I personally think it takes very little talent/skill to design something "flat". Neuomorphism is an upcoming trend, one that I think that Apple was leaning towards, and I really honestly like that quite a lot. Big Sur is my favourite (design-wise) of the more recent macOS.
I miss Aqua.
Neuomorphism is just Material Design. Basically what Android is doing today and Windows 10 is doing now. It's flat UI design with bits of skeuo sprinkled about. Not really what I was hoping for myself. I want my textures back, my glossy bars back, my buttons back. Once VoLTE becomes mandated early next year, the end comes for any of my phones that are still doing skeuo. They will then have no SMS/phone capability. I use SMS heavily to maintain contact with my girl.
The only devices exempted are my wifi-only Galaxy Tab 2 10.1, 7.0 and Note 8.0 and Note 10.1.
I already prepared by popping the SIM from my Relay 4G and back into my iPhone 6S (which has updates frozen) and revived my Apple watch (also updates frozen) and my iPhone still has a nice Galaxy S4 theme complete with UI and ringtones.
I am covered on PCs running Linux as you can make it whatever the heck you like no issue. My concern is what will happen in the future for macOS, tvOS, and smartphones overall. I have a nice LG Stylo 5 that is more Samsung than LG (it mimics Touchwiz even better, albeit modern, I have already installed a S4 theme) but it still seems futile. The glory days of phones trying to cater to just about every demographic (small, large, slider, front firing speakers, kickstands, headphone jacks, etc) are long gone and show no sign of returning, and skeuo UI, Touchwiz Nature UX, iOS 6 are not coming back. It's a sad day. If skeuo returned and we properly progressed forward, we would eventually have holographic UI if not far better VR/AR support. Also we'd have the benefit of running modern apps and who knows how far it could go? I obviously can continue using older version apps on my skeuo devices until they go kaput, but eventually even Facebook won't allow a login, and games will make me update to use them, etc.
Either way it's a lose-lose. I shudder to think flat is forever. Talk about tech stagnation.
Part of it is notalgia as well. I was using peak skeuo (iPhone 3GS) in 2010 and that year a lot of wonderful things happened for me. I knew a sweet pet deer, got introduced to my vegan girlfriend via Facebook, and got a new house and finally moved away from the trailer park. I was dazzled by tech then, it was so wild, free, glossy and even cars felt futuristic (I was still driving a 1984 Chrysler Fifth Avenue) so that time/era I'm reminded of whenever I pick up that Galaxy Tab 2 10.1, or use a Samsung TV from 2010. I just miss tech doing what it did then. The landscape had far more variety, less homogenization like today. There's just no way to recapture that. Nothing on stage at WWDC or Unpacked wows me.
The only devices exempted are my wifi-only Galaxy Tab 2 10.1, 7.0 and Note 8.0 and Note 10.1.
I already prepared by popping the SIM from my Relay 4G and back into my iPhone 6S (which has updates frozen) and revived my Apple watch (also updates frozen) and my iPhone still has a nice Galaxy S4 theme complete with UI and ringtones.
I am covered on PCs running Linux as you can make it whatever the heck you like no issue. My concern is what will happen in the future for macOS, tvOS, and smartphones overall. I have a nice LG Stylo 5 that is more Samsung than LG (it mimics Touchwiz even better, albeit modern, I have already installed a S4 theme) but it still seems futile. The glory days of phones trying to cater to just about every demographic (small, large, slider, front firing speakers, kickstands, headphone jacks, etc) are long gone and show no sign of returning, and skeuo UI, Touchwiz Nature UX, iOS 6 are not coming back. It's a sad day. If skeuo returned and we properly progressed forward, we would eventually have holographic UI if not far better VR/AR support. Also we'd have the benefit of running modern apps and who knows how far it could go? I obviously can continue using older version apps on my skeuo devices until they go kaput, but eventually even Facebook won't allow a login, and games will make me update to use them, etc.
Either way it's a lose-lose. I shudder to think flat is forever. Talk about tech stagnation.
Part of it is notalgia as well. I was using peak skeuo (iPhone 3GS) in 2010 and that year a lot of wonderful things happened for me. I knew a sweet pet deer, got introduced to my vegan girlfriend via Facebook, and got a new house and finally moved away from the trailer park. I was dazzled by tech then, it was so wild, free, glossy and even cars felt futuristic (I was still driving a 1984 Chrysler Fifth Avenue) so that time/era I'm reminded of whenever I pick up that Galaxy Tab 2 10.1, or use a Samsung TV from 2010. I just miss tech doing what it did then. The landscape had far more variety, less homogenization like today. There's just no way to recapture that. Nothing on stage at WWDC or Unpacked wows me.
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personally, am glad that apple doesn't design it's OSes based on the whining of 11 people on a macrumors forum...
I kind of agree. To me, the Big S doesn't look like a change to IOS. It works the same and looks the same as as OSX before it. The slightly different look to the icons and such disappears after a short while, and within a week a user would have to find a machine with an old system to remember the differences.personally, am glad that apple doesn't design it's OSes based on the whining of 11 people on a macrumors forum...
That being said, IMO the startup screen with the primary colored splotches is as ugly as sin, but that can be changed in about ten seconds. The transparent menu bar is suckola, especially if one likes dark wallpaper, but that can be fixed with a little work.
But, if a person is worried about rounded icons, or non-rounded icons, or IOS icon centricism, etc, to the extent of obsessing in a forum, then they don't have much to do on their machine for real, so why did they upgrade? If you are spending time on real work in a program, the OS disappears anyway. I don't work in MacOS - I work in Scrivener or Xcode or Smultron, and they look exactly the same as before.
Considering that dark mode is used across all major phone, tablet AND desktop operating systems now, claiming that Dark mode is compensating for 'flat' design is a misnomer. Regarding Mail, the toolbar is still there above the message pane, it just isn't as obvious as it once was.