I loved Vista. Coming from XP it felt like next gen. I didn’t have big problems with it.
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Why is Big Sur so ugly?
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I avoid using MICROshaft products whenever possible, but in all the online fora in which I participate, I am one of the very few who liked Vista and/or 8. I really did like the visual that was Vista (and unlike most people who were trying to run Vista on a computer barely spec'd to run XP, I was running a top of the line system spec'd specifically for Vista), and I liked the tile interface of 8—no more idiocy of the "Start" button.
Our clients avoided Vista, and 8 like the plague. Most likely didn't want to have to buy new hardware to get it to work properly. We experimented with Vista Ultimate, and 8, and we were able to kill Windows Update in the version of Vista I was using. Even Microstuff couldn't figure it out, and said it should be burned down and rebuilt. I could update with the KB files themselves, but WU just didn't want to play right. I tried just about everything. Registry hacks, profile tweaks, reinstalls, uninstalls, forcing through a server side policy. Nope... Ended up getting 'gifted' the 10 updatelate one night on that box, and a few months later, the processor jumped off a tall building (thermaled) and the system was scrapped, which was a bummer. It was a high core count i7. Wicked fast for the time. All the fans were running too. Odd... I swapped different processors onto that board, nothing brought it back to life. *shrug*
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I loved Vista's skeoumorphism. It was miles ahead of the crap that XP's Luna was. The only thing I really miss from XP's day is the infamous 'critical stop' sound effect that's pretty much a meme today.
I also really wanted to like Windows 8. It reminded me of the Xbox 360's UI and I was already familiar with that so the flatness didn't hit as hard as iOS 7's did. I actually hated the Start menu since Windows 95 (explanation a few posts back) so having a modern take on Windows 3.1's program manager felt like a return to something I liked.
It was the darned gesture system that I never could get the hang of, the always-full-screen apps, and the 'Charms' bar that had a mind of its own (wanted to display when I didn't need it, and conveniently vanished when I did need it) among other reasons that made the initial love disappear rather quickly. That was also the same year I bought my first MacBook Pro. Not only as a response to Windows 8 but also because I was really getting into Apple during that time (height of skeuomorphism) until Jony Ive up and destroyed it.
One funny memory of the Windows 8 era was the Microsoft version of WWDC conference and seeing the poor guy try to load Internet Explorer on the then-new Surface Pro and it freezing up live on stage.
I also really wanted to like Windows 8. It reminded me of the Xbox 360's UI and I was already familiar with that so the flatness didn't hit as hard as iOS 7's did. I actually hated the Start menu since Windows 95 (explanation a few posts back) so having a modern take on Windows 3.1's program manager felt like a return to something I liked.
It was the darned gesture system that I never could get the hang of, the always-full-screen apps, and the 'Charms' bar that had a mind of its own (wanted to display when I didn't need it, and conveniently vanished when I did need it) among other reasons that made the initial love disappear rather quickly. That was also the same year I bought my first MacBook Pro. Not only as a response to Windows 8 but also because I was really getting into Apple during that time (height of skeuomorphism) until Jony Ive up and destroyed it.
One funny memory of the Windows 8 era was the Microsoft version of WWDC conference and seeing the poor guy try to load Internet Explorer on the then-new Surface Pro and it freezing up live on stage.
you know its weird...
since I've now used BS as the daily driver for a few months, when I go back to my 2016 MacBook Pro with Sierra on it, the UI feels more crammed.
Used to think BS had too much empty space in the UI like the browser, and extended beyond the three window action icons (red, yellow, and green) but now I kinda quite like it
since I've now used BS as the daily driver for a few months, when I go back to my 2016 MacBook Pro with Sierra on it, the UI feels more crammed.
Used to think BS had too much empty space in the UI like the browser, and extended beyond the three window action icons (red, yellow, and green) but now I kinda quite like it
There's a few things I like about Big Sur:
1. I actually like the transparent menu bar. Not sure why it gets so much hate.
2. Safari feels less 'busy' where the toolbar is. I only use one tab anyway so maybe that's it? But it feels less cluttered up there
3. Dark mode automatically works (it was broken in Catalina)
4. The dynamic wallpaper is the best one so far.
Also, since some users here helped with me switching out the system app icons for some better skeuomorphic versions, it feels more like Mavericks with a Big Sur skin. Still hoping to get the glossy traffic lights back among other things but one thing at a time!
My boss's daughter has a really old MacBook Pro from 2015 stuck on Sierra and boy is it as flat as a pancake for a UI. Maybe I grew used to Big Sur's icons before swapping them for Mavericks and Lion icons but still. I don't know how she stands it! I forgot how ugly Sierra was!
1. I actually like the transparent menu bar. Not sure why it gets so much hate.
2. Safari feels less 'busy' where the toolbar is. I only use one tab anyway so maybe that's it? But it feels less cluttered up there
3. Dark mode automatically works (it was broken in Catalina)
4. The dynamic wallpaper is the best one so far.
Also, since some users here helped with me switching out the system app icons for some better skeuomorphic versions, it feels more like Mavericks with a Big Sur skin. Still hoping to get the glossy traffic lights back among other things but one thing at a time!
My boss's daughter has a really old MacBook Pro from 2015 stuck on Sierra and boy is it as flat as a pancake for a UI. Maybe I grew used to Big Sur's icons before swapping them for Mavericks and Lion icons but still. I don't know how she stands it! I forgot how ugly Sierra was!
nickdalzell1: 4. The dynamic wallpaper is the best one so far.
what is the dynamic wallpaper?
one thing i love about Mojave is that screen saver turning light to dark during the day
not that i lava lamp stare at that all day, but i just like that feature.
is that considered a dynamic wallpaper?
what is the dynamic wallpaper?
one thing i love about Mojave is that screen saver turning light to dark during the day
not that i lava lamp stare at that all day, but i just like that feature.
is that considered a dynamic wallpaper?
i thought that was mountain lion, most of those icons look like my spare MacBook air-mountain lion!
Any version between 10.4 and 10.9 is far better than today's Big Surry.
UI team who are responsible for this flat junk design should be fired.
UI team who are responsible for this flat junk design should be fired.
The icons sure, but the apps are still the Big Sur apps. I meant replacing the apps themselves with older versions straight out of Mountain Lion.
One thing I disliked about Mojave was the bland sand dune wallpaper.
That being said, the dynamic wallpaper is a wallpaper usually the default wallpaper, which changes based on the time of day at your location. Sunrise to sunset basically. The one in Big Sur is well, Big Sur itself, and if it's dark at your place, it's nighttime, and if it's sunrise, well, it's sunrise.
There's actually two dynamic wallpapers in Big Sur. A very colorful boring pastel smear that looks very Windows 8 lockscreen-ish, and the photorealistic Big Sur itself.
Still wish there were a way to download others officially.
The UI design team itself isn't even working for Apple in that capacity (Jony Ive).
The biggest mistake Apple made was firing Scott Forstall, the person responsible for the wonderous skeuomorphic UI that once defined Apple products.
There's still some magic left in Apple devices. I just swapped my SIM back to my iPhone 6S (which is on iOS 13, and updates turned off) and started using my Watch again. There's something so smooth and fluid about the animations and speed of loading apps up that even today Android can't quite get right.
But I do miss the iOS 6 days so badly. It was iOS 7 and MacOS Yosemite that ruined the rest of the magic. Everything started to go downhill from there, but thankfully some things have been fixed a bit. The iOS 7 control center was just bland compared with the iOS 13 version. The iOS 7 version was so basic and wire-frame. The signal 'dots' (really, Jony? What was that about?) are gone, and the battery icon looks more like iOS 6's battery icon. Some icons got some of the gradient back. But that's it so far.
I really want my coverflow, and slide to unlock back though. If I could only bring two items from that era over it'd be those.
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Stop living in the past, people with your thoughts were responsible of the dark age in history....
I just love posts such as ^^^. "You're holding back progress"
How? Am I stopping you or anyone else from upgrading to the latest and greatest? No. So how on earth could I be 'responsible for the dark age in history?'
It's almost like individual preferences mean nothing in this day and age. You do you and I do me. I'll use what satisfies me and you use what satisfies you. What's your issue?
How? Am I stopping you or anyone else from upgrading to the latest and greatest? No. So how on earth could I be 'responsible for the dark age in history?'
It's almost like individual preferences mean nothing in this day and age. You do you and I do me. I'll use what satisfies me and you use what satisfies you. What's your issue?
Were any of Mountain Lion's apps specifically 32-bit? I think there were 64-bit libraries and apps during its day?
Windows XP was from 2001 and it had 64-bit compatibility later on.
The Safari for Windows version from 2010 also had a 64-bit copy. Mountain Lion should have had some sort of support, or app versions. The only difference is they didn't kill 32-bit support for no discernable reason, leaving Windows 10 to take those users instead. I still don't understand what's so special about 64-bit. Just the disadvantages, like no more Portal 2 or Half Life for my Mac.
I plan on first figuring out how to swap the flat traffic lights for the glossy ones from that day though. That shouldn't depend on anything 64-bit or 32-bit messing anything up. I just don't know how yet (and Google is of no help, I just get results for traffic lights lol). I run a version of Firefox from that day just fine but the UI looks weird with flat traffic lights on an otherwise glossy grey UI design. It's not the only 'old' app I use from third parties either, and I kinda hoped that being from the Mountain Lion/Mavericks era meant it'd draw the glossy traffic lights just like running an Android 2.3 app on Android 10 or 11 would make it draw the Android 2.3 buttons when said app produces a dialog box. Unfortunately, that assumption was wrong.
Weirdly enough, Opus Domini Lite does draw the glossy traffic lights.
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You're, um, going to have trouble with that. For some perspective, this is all of the code I had to write to make the Mountain Lion version of QuickTime work fully on Mavericks: https://github.com/Wowfunhappy/QuickTime-Fixer/blob/master/QuickTimeFixer/main.m
All of this code just to move QuickTime forward a single point release, from 10.8 to 10.9. There are some apps that are easier to move than this, but you're going to have a lot of trouble moving apps a full eight versions ahead!
You could also come join me over here on 10.9.
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I would gladly go to Mavericks if a 2019 T-2 equipped MBP could support it!
My 2012 MBP died (hard drive clicked to death) shortly after I stupidly updated to High Sierra. I should have never updated period and of course after learning the hard way I refuse to update apps or the OS ever again.
That applies to ALL my devices. Older apps still work perfectly fine. Also, I'm not hacked and none of the I.D. monitoring services I pay for tell me anything is wrong, so apparently the FUD about running older software is just that--FUD.
I've never had issues though with a single OS update breaking any apps. My Samsung Galaxy S5 came from Amazon with Android 6.0 installed out the gate and all the apps I ran on it were from Android 2.3-4.4 and most built-in apps from Samsung (Milk Music, Messages, Slacker Radio, IMDB, Amazon app suite, etc) were also from the Android 4.4 era.
The only update I installed on my iPhone 6S was iOS 13 (it shipped with 12) and only because of dark mode, optimized charging, and a few nicer UI tweaks to make it less iOS 7-looking. No app I had installed then broke either. I'm running Firefox 45 on Big Sur no issue at all either. (that's not a custom icon on my dock there!) I'm running 2010 apps on Windows 10 on a HP laptop no issue. So long as the compatibility layer (32 or 64-bit) is there it should work no issue at all. There's reports of folks running Plus! from Windows 95 on Windows 10 (check out MichaelMJD on Youtube)
In your opinion. My furniture in my home may not be your cup of tea either but that's the whole point of being an individual with their own preferences or beliefs. I'm vegan, you're probably not. Isn't life wonderful? We're all different!
People like you won't ever be happy I guess until everyone is exactly the same, running the same PC, OS version, and believing blindly that 'newer is always better!'
My 2012 MBP died (hard drive clicked to death) shortly after I stupidly updated to High Sierra. I should have never updated period and of course after learning the hard way I refuse to update apps or the OS ever again.
That applies to ALL my devices. Older apps still work perfectly fine. Also, I'm not hacked and none of the I.D. monitoring services I pay for tell me anything is wrong, so apparently the FUD about running older software is just that--FUD.
I've never had issues though with a single OS update breaking any apps. My Samsung Galaxy S5 came from Amazon with Android 6.0 installed out the gate and all the apps I ran on it were from Android 2.3-4.4 and most built-in apps from Samsung (Milk Music, Messages, Slacker Radio, IMDB, Amazon app suite, etc) were also from the Android 4.4 era.
The only update I installed on my iPhone 6S was iOS 13 (it shipped with 12) and only because of dark mode, optimized charging, and a few nicer UI tweaks to make it less iOS 7-looking. No app I had installed then broke either. I'm running Firefox 45 on Big Sur no issue at all either. (that's not a custom icon on my dock there!) I'm running 2010 apps on Windows 10 on a HP laptop no issue. So long as the compatibility layer (32 or 64-bit) is there it should work no issue at all. There's reports of folks running Plus! from Windows 95 on Windows 10 (check out MichaelMJD on Youtube)
In your opinion. My furniture in my home may not be your cup of tea either but that's the whole point of being an individual with their own preferences or beliefs. I'm vegan, you're probably not. Isn't life wonderful? We're all different!
People like you won't ever be happy I guess until everyone is exactly the same, running the same PC, OS version, and believing blindly that 'newer is always better!'
I just replaced my hardware. 🤷♂️
For my primary work machine, I built a new Hackintosh around an i7 4790K and a GTX 780. And then as a portable option, I had a repair shop swap my 2015 MBA's logic board with one from a 2014 MBA.
I tried to look for older Apple gear (such as the iPhone 3GS, or a first-gen iPad, original iPod, Mac, etc) on Amazon but no luck. Can find plenty of classic Android phones, WebOS era devices, or even Nokia N-series phones (boy were they ahead of their time!)
I'm no fan of eBay for a few reasons, most notably believing everything vintage is worth tons of money, and the infamous shipping company I call 'United Parcel Smashers'. Also scammers are everywhere on eBay.
Once, I found an iPad 2 on Amazon for $90 but that looked quite pricey, and it had iOS 9 on it (darn!). I wanted something with iOS 6 or less. Hey, if it were up to me I'd have an iPhone 3GS, classic iPod, original iPad, and a 2009 MBP in white with Snow Leopard. My father still had an OG iPhone in 2016 right before he died. He only used wifi and calling and texting. The screen was super dim at max brightness and the battery probably made it 6 hours standby before needing charged but it worked for him.
I once had quite the collection of Scully-era Apple products I scored from thrift stores in the early 2000s, including a Performa 4/33 and PowerMac 600, even an all-in-one Macintosh G3. That latter one I even had BearShare running on for MP3 downloading on MacOS 9. Stupidly sold all of it. I even had a Newton (with a failing touchscreen--tap an icon, the one beside it launched instead. Useless with the on-screen keyboard).
I'm no fan of eBay for a few reasons, most notably believing everything vintage is worth tons of money, and the infamous shipping company I call 'United Parcel Smashers'. Also scammers are everywhere on eBay.
Once, I found an iPad 2 on Amazon for $90 but that looked quite pricey, and it had iOS 9 on it (darn!). I wanted something with iOS 6 or less. Hey, if it were up to me I'd have an iPhone 3GS, classic iPod, original iPad, and a 2009 MBP in white with Snow Leopard. My father still had an OG iPhone in 2016 right before he died. He only used wifi and calling and texting. The screen was super dim at max brightness and the battery probably made it 6 hours standby before needing charged but it worked for him.
I once had quite the collection of Scully-era Apple products I scored from thrift stores in the early 2000s, including a Performa 4/33 and PowerMac 600, even an all-in-one Macintosh G3. That latter one I even had BearShare running on for MP3 downloading on MacOS 9. Stupidly sold all of it. I even had a Newton (with a failing touchscreen--tap an icon, the one beside it launched instead. Useless with the on-screen keyboard).
iOS is indeed basically impossible because the damn things can't be downgraded, but a 10.9-compatible Mac should really be fairly easy to come by. This stuff isn't particularly old/vintage, you need a Mac released before the fall of 2014.
This is the shop that swapped my Macbook Air's logic board. I've never bought one of their full refurbished units but they treated me and my Macbook Air super well, I was really quite impressed. They also do trade-ins if you want to replace your current laptop. https://doubledex.com/
Edit: It's a little annoying that they don't list the year though, so you'd have to cross reference the part number to check for Mavericks compatibility. If you're really serious about this, you might just email them and ask what they'd recommend for a Macbook Air/Pro/etc that will work with 10.9. This was basically how I ended up swapping my MBA's logic board; I was going to fully replace the computer to run Mavericks, the swap was their idea.
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Amazon resales tend to be on the last suppported OS version. Which was why my Samsung Galaxy S5 had Android 6.0 instead of 4.4. Why that iPad 2 had iOS 9 instead of whatever it shipped with.
All the Macs I see so far on Amazon are pretty recent. All of them post-Yosemite.
I'd only buy something if I could be sure it didn't support the newer OS. It'd have to be something that maxed out on iOS 6 or MacOS Mavericks. I prefer Mountain Lion more because it kept the skeuomorphism in apps intact (Mavericks had the glossy icons, traffic lights and some bits and bobs but the apps such as Notes and Calendar got flattened)
This is an example of a search of used "Macbook" on Amazon:
I do have a PowerBook G4 Tibook that has 10.2 but you can't Youtube on 10.2 (everything on the PowerPC forum prefers 10.4 which mine cannot run due to 128MB RAM and no chips I bought for it worked) and the hard disk appears to be doing what my 2012 MBP did when it got High Sierra.
All the Macs I see so far on Amazon are pretty recent. All of them post-Yosemite.
I'd only buy something if I could be sure it didn't support the newer OS. It'd have to be something that maxed out on iOS 6 or MacOS Mavericks. I prefer Mountain Lion more because it kept the skeuomorphism in apps intact (Mavericks had the glossy icons, traffic lights and some bits and bobs but the apps such as Notes and Calendar got flattened)
This is an example of a search of used "Macbook" on Amazon:
I do have a PowerBook G4 Tibook that has 10.2 but you can't Youtube on 10.2 (everything on the PowerPC forum prefers 10.4 which mine cannot run due to 128MB RAM and no chips I bought for it worked) and the hard disk appears to be doing what my 2012 MBP did when it got High Sierra.
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By the time you reach the last supported OS on a particular Mac, you're already pushing the limits of its hardware. All Macs will run the latest OS that was available at the time that model was released, and they're exceedingly easy to downgrade.
Every Mac model listed on this page will be able to run Mavericks, and all except the ones listed as "late 2013" will be able to run Mountain Lion as well. https://everymac.com/systems/by_year/macs-released-in-2013.html
Or, seriously, email DoubleDex and ask if you can get a refurbished computer with Mountain Lion preinstalled.
Amazon has options like this. I think their refurbished stuff is overpriced, but if you want to buy from Amazon you can do that. https://www.amazon.com/Apple-MacBoo...hild=1&keywords=ME867LL&qid=1615517979&sr=8-3
Every Mac model listed on this page will be able to run Mavericks, and all except the ones listed as "late 2013" will be able to run Mountain Lion as well. https://everymac.com/systems/by_year/macs-released-in-2013.html
Or, seriously, email DoubleDex and ask if you can get a refurbished computer with Mountain Lion preinstalled.
Amazon has options like this. I think their refurbished stuff is overpriced, but if you want to buy from Amazon you can do that. https://www.amazon.com/Apple-MacBoo...hild=1&keywords=ME867LL&qid=1615517979&sr=8-3
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I won't be able to just replace the logic board of my 2012 though since when it died I got angry and threw it on the floor so the screen is dead. About all it does now is charge its internal battery and that's all it can do.
Also, I don't want Mavericks if I can get Mountain Lion. If possible, I'll run it in Parallels but I am not sure if you can still buy a digital copy or ISO of it. Also, doubtful it scales to retina properly. I just want the full skeuomorphism not just a skin deep method as I got now.
Would be neat if there were a way to get an iPhone running iOS 6 as well. I also stand by the last supported version being no higher than iOS 6 or Mountain Lion because one thing Apple products love to do if they can get updated is nag you endlessly about 'an update is available'. I want the confidence that not only will I not get nagged but also not accidentally hitting 'install' on that used iPhone 5 that I might find that has iOS 6 on it.
I'm serious. I hate updates. I accepted Big Sur for what it is but that's pretty much it (and only because so many things were broken on Catalina and Mojave felt too Yosemite to me)
Also, I don't want Mavericks if I can get Mountain Lion. If possible, I'll run it in Parallels but I am not sure if you can still buy a digital copy or ISO of it. Also, doubtful it scales to retina properly. I just want the full skeuomorphism not just a skin deep method as I got now.
Would be neat if there were a way to get an iPhone running iOS 6 as well. I also stand by the last supported version being no higher than iOS 6 or Mountain Lion because one thing Apple products love to do if they can get updated is nag you endlessly about 'an update is available'. I want the confidence that not only will I not get nagged but also not accidentally hitting 'install' on that used iPhone 5 that I might find that has iOS 6 on it.
I'm serious. I hate updates. I accepted Big Sur for what it is but that's pretty much it (and only because so many things were broken on Catalina and Mojave felt too Yosemite to me)