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OP. Any new infos from you?

Was it another post/thread just to start mac/winPC wars?
I hope not.
These really helpful and friendly fora don't deserve this.
 
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If the original Commodore didn't die this discussion wouldn't exist ;)

Amiga 1200 had multitasking, a dock, tabbed web browser, and split screen view (at around 25 minutes) years ago:

 
If the original Commodore didn't die this discussion wouldn't exist ;)

Amiga 1200 had multitasking, a dock, tabbed web browser, and split screen view (at around 25 minutes) years ago:


Commodore Amiga (and C64 before) ... nice memories... Thank you.
Don't forget the wars between Sinclair's ZX Spectrum and Amstrad's cpc 464....:)
following were the wars -> Amiga vs Jackintosh (Atari 520 ST)
 
If the original Commodore didn't die this discussion wouldn't exist ;)

It died because of the emergence of the PC, like every other independent computer manufacturer except Apple thankfully.

Amiga 1200 had multitasking, a dock, tabbed web browser, and split screen view (at around 25 minutes) years ago:

It had mutlitasking.. The rest are features of Workbench 3.9 that came in 2000, while the tabbed web browser is early, the web itself was created on a NeXT.. But while on the topic of retrofitting new phenomenas on old technology, there's a Twitter client for the C64 called Breadbox64. :D
 
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It died because of the emergence of the PC, like every other independent computer manufacturer except Apple thankfully.

I don't believe that to be the problem. PCs "emerged" in the early 1980s. Commodore went bankrupt (1994) long before the "PC" became what it is today, that is to say before Windows95. Commodore died because its managers were INEPT and no other reason. They had no idea what they had and no idea how to market it and waited too long to update the hardware to better graphics, etc. They had a machine that was untouchable in 1985 by anyone else in the home computer arena and squandered their opportunity.

It had mutlitasking.. The rest are features of Workbench 3.9 that came in 2000, while the tabbed web browser is early, the web itself was created on a NeXT.. But while on the topic of retrofitting new phenomenas on old technology, there's a Twitter client for the C64 called Breadbox64. :D

Most of those features were available LONG before 2000 (I should know since I stopped using my Amiga 3000 in 1999 when I finally bought a Windows PC). They simply weren't standard to the OS itself, but rather were available with 3rd party additions. I had a dock on my Amiga 3000 around 1993 (still used Diskmaster II a lot more often) and I had web browsing on a computer that I got in 1991 that was never designed for it and worked quite well for several years even so. My Amiga 3000 with 18MB of ram and 340MB of hard drive space (with the addition of a Picasso friendly graphics card) was surfing the web better in 1998 than my brother's Pentium 90 that almost a half decade newer.
 
I don't believe that to be the problem. PCs "emerged" in the early 1980s. Commodore went bankrupt (1994) long before the "PC" became what it is today, that is to say before Windows95. Commodore died because its managers were INEPT and no other reason. They had no idea what they had and no idea how to market it and waited too long to update the hardware to better graphics, etc. They had a machine that was untouchable in 1985 by anyone else in the home computer arena and squandered their opportunity.



Most of those features were available LONG before 2000 (I should know since I stopped using my Amiga 3000 in 1999 when I finally bought a Windows PC). They simply weren't standard to the OS itself, but rather were available with 3rd party additions. I had a dock on my Amiga 3000 around 1993 (still used Diskmaster II a lot more often) and I had web browsing on a computer that I got in 1991 that was never designed for it and worked quite well for several years even so. My Amiga 3000 with 18MB of ram and 340MB of hard drive space (with the addition of a Picasso friendly graphics card) was surfing the web better in 1998 than my brother's Pentium 90 that almost a half decade newer.

Great post. The A500 I had in 1990 beat any PC at the time by a very wide margin at things like multitasking, colour graphics, music creation. It took five years more for the PC and Mac to catch up, but by then Commodore put themselves in the grave because they thought they could keep selling variations of the Commodore 64. They should have dumped that machine when the Amiga came out and then gone into the console business when there was only Nintendo to compete with (because Sega were **** at consoles). The AmigaCD32 sold well but by then it was too late.
 
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I don't believe that to be the problem. PCs "emerged" in the early 1980s. Commodore went bankrupt (1994) long before the "PC" became what it is today, that is to say before Windows95. Commodore died because its managers were INEPT and no other reason. They had no idea what they had and no idea how to market it and waited too long to update the hardware to better graphics, etc. They had a machine that was untouchable in 1985 by anyone else in the home computer arena and squandered their opportunity.

I think you miss the point... The original IBM PC was proprietary and quit costly. Compaq reverse engineered the proprietary BIOS to make a clone, lawsuit followed, IBM lost. The consequence of this was the the market for OEMs was now open, something that led to, a larger market, ever decreasing prices and higher specs, with intel and moore's law at play. The platform now was in the hands of MS and Intel. Commodore's managers may have been inept, but they also faced fiercer competition, which made it hard to keep up, even if, as you say the original Amiga 1000 was ahead of it's time. Past merits wont help you if the competition outdo your product at a price you can't compete with. Lastly, it was not only Commodore that went away, but every other independent manufacturer (well except Apple).


Most of those features were available LONG before 2000 (I should know since I stopped using my Amiga 3000 in 1999 when I finally bought a Windows PC). They simply weren't standard to the OS itself, but rather were available with 3rd party additions. I had a dock on my Amiga 3000 around 1993 (still used Diskmaster II a lot more often) and I had web browsing on a computer that I got in 1991 that was never designed for it and worked quite well for several years even so. My Amiga 3000 with 18MB of ram and 340MB of hard drive space (with the addition of a Picasso friendly graphics card) was surfing the web better in 1998 than my brother's Pentium 90 that almost a half decade newer.

Maybe, however the clip above clearly notes that it uses Workbenck 3.9, the mentioned features did not ship with the original OS, I know that for a fact since I owned an Amiga as well.
 
The proof of concept was created on a NeXT. It didn't take off until the POC was ported to VAX/VMS.

Not sure what you mean, when an implementation is made and an RFC published, the web is created. Tim Berners Lee worked for CERN at the time, and hyperlinked text on the internet makes a lot of sense in a scientific setting as a concept. But if you want to talk about where it took of, why mention niche computers on the fringe, surely it didn't take of until it emerged on the PC. But all of this is irrelevant because the entire point of what I said was to give a reference in time, before a web browser made no sense at all.
 
Viruses. Case closed.
Really? Ok. You should know that if up asked many PC users, who run AV software, viruses are not an issue. Its rare to even encounter one, which if it did, the AV will secure it. Hows adware and malware on OSX? It exists. How is phishing on OSX, it exists. These annoying wares are more an issue these days, unless you are a Mac fan, in which case you will defend Macs
 
The interface... Windows never dedicated proper time creating an interface that actually worked. They still having no clue. The windows are bulky, the navigation is clumsy. That is the real problem with PCs. Because of that and the way Windows is designed, you need an IT around, basically a geek who sort of knows his way around. Once you master the O.S. you get a great platform, but it will cost you. Usually people who gets a Mac never go back just because the navigation works.
Windows? Well I shifted to a Mac and windows are a bane in my life on this thing. I can't even use crap Finder without resizing columns every time. You can manage windows on Window easy, how you want it
 
You're the first person to use the word hate in this thread. There's no trash talking here either. I think your only trying to MAKE trash talking and hate actually happen in a thread where pros and cons are being discussed in a pretty civilised manner.

No, they aren't. The Mac guys are defensive as always. The PC guys too, but never as much as the Mac guys. I was on a Mac forum today that I subscribe to. The question was is Malwarebytes for Mac available? His query was based on malware and adware. So I say it is available, and that while Macs don't get viruses or trojans supposedly, Malwarebytes is a well respected PC software. Then, a reply, that talked about Mac viruses, and early Macs, blah blah blah. Did;t answer the question just defended Macs and ran down Windoze. Thats what Apple users do.

I use both. I moved to a Mac almost two years ago. I like it, but I have grumblings over simple things that are clunky. I go to work, using Windows, yes it looks not as pretty, but its easy to do what I want without bypassing some OSX missing capability. Featurewise they all do the same things in similar or different ways. Gestures are a Mac feature and great it is.

Some talk about better looking? Check some Windows based PC's and laptops. Windows 10 will also pickup some cool Mac features too.
 
Great post. The A500 I had in 1990 beat any PC at the time by a very wide margin at things like multitasking, colour graphics, music creation. It took five years more for the PC and Mac to catch up, but by then Commodore put themselves in the grave because they thought they could keep selling variations of the Commodore 64. They should have dumped that machine when the Amiga came out and then gone into the console business when there was only Nintendo to compete with (because Sega were **** at consoles). The AmigaCD32 sold well but by then it was too late.
Didn't help too that many of the games that were being released around 1990 ish weren't Amiga specific but rather put together on PCs and ported across to the Amiga and if they were lucky the ST. It was around about this time that I was noticing PCs getting popular for games of the sort that Amiga and ST users were more used to playing. I was an ST user and a Megadrive owner. In fact still got a working MD. :) I have to agree though that I don't understand why they kept pushing with the C64 idea for so long especially with the the souped up version the c65 which was far too late and never made it into production.
 
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Not sure what you mean, when an implementation is made and an RFC published, the web is created. Tim Berners Lee worked for CERN at the time, and hyperlinked text on the internet makes a lot of sense in a scientific setting as a concept. But if you want to talk about where it took of, why mention niche computers on the fringe, surely it didn't take of until it emerged on the PC. But all of this is irrelevant because the entire point of what I said was to give a reference in time, before a web browser made no sense at all.
I also worked at CERN at the time, and Tim's office was a few doors down the corridor from mine. I know TBL - do you?

The web took off once the web server was ported to VAX/VMS and put on vxcern (www.cern.ch), and everyone could publish and read the pages. And usually using Lynx (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lynx_(web_browser) ), long before graphical web browsers like Mosaic appeared. (Not a knock against NeXT - simply that once a public server was available many more people were able to create content, and many many more people could consume it.)

In 1992, VAX/VMS was hardly "niche computers on the fringe" - it was one of the mainstream systems that was available as a desktop GUI system as well as a big datacenter server system or cluster. In the early '90s at CERN, VMS was the "PC". It wasn't until Intel released the P5 that the "PC" became a mainstream platform.

And, by the way, RFC 2068 (https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2068 ) was proposed in 1997 - long after html-based servers and browsers took off. Sometimes the RFC happens long after the technology is adopted.
 
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I also worked at CERN at the time, and Tim's office was a few doors down the corridor from mine. I know TBL - do you?

WTF has that got to do with anything? Does any of that change the fact that an implementation must precede a web browser? You missed the point the first time, is it possible for the Amiga to have a web browser before TBL made the implementation on a NeXT, yes or no?
 
WTF has that got to do with anything? Does any of that change the fact that an implementation must precede a web browser? You missed the point the first time, is it possible for the Amiga to have a web browser before TBL made the implementation on a NeXT, yes or no?
And WTF does this have to do with the post that I responded to or my reply?

You mentioned RFC, and I supplied a link to the actual RFC. Entered long after the web was in use.

And, what is the "implementation of an http server" if there is no "implementation of an http client"? A server without a client is somewhat like the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/If_a_tree_falls_in_a_forest conundrum - if your server has no clients what is the point? We agree here - a web server is a prerequisite for a web client.
 
And WTF does this have to do with the post that I responded to or my reply?

Well, the post ends with this: "But all of this is irrelevant because the entire point of what I said was to give a reference in time, before a web browser made no sense at all."

You mentioned RFC, and I supplied a link to the actual RFC. Entered long after the web was in use.

And, what is the "implementation of an http server" if there is no "implementation of an http client"? A server without a client is somewhat like the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/If_a_tree_falls_in_a_forest conundrum - if your server has no clients what is the point? We agree here - a web server is a prerequisite for a web client.

And a protocol definition is a prerequisite for both.

You're right about the RFC, but there is actually an informal http/1.0 RFC submitted the year before, and anything prior to that is known as http 0.9. The point is that there needs to be a spec, somewhere of a protocol for others to make implementations of both servers and clients.


Edit: In case someone is interested, I'll add link to an interview with Tim Berners Lee at W3, describing the early web and the first browsers. Interestingly, after the first browser (which was a GUI app btw), the next GUI browser was released just a year after in 91, this was also the recomended browser at CERN.

http://www.w3.org/People/Berners-Lee/FAQ.html#browser

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WorldWideWeb
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ViolaWWW
 
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I like how that guy that was banging on about "windows utilities" disappeared the moment the conversation moved beyond stuff that happened in the last 5 years :)

Other than that, this thread sucks and you all got trolled up good :)
 
I think you miss the point... The original IBM PC was proprietary and quit costly. Compaq reverse engineered the proprietary BIOS to make a clone, lawsuit followed, IBM lost. The consequence of this was the the market for OEMs was now open, something that led to, a larger market, ever decreasing prices and higher specs, with intel and moore's law at play. The platform now was in the hands of MS and Intel. Commodore's managers may have been inept, but they also faced fiercer competition, which made it hard to keep up, even if, as you say the original Amiga 1000 was ahead of it's time. Past merits wont help you if the competition outdo your product at a price you can't compete with. Lastly, it was not only Commodore that went away, but every other independent manufacturer (well except Apple).

Did you miss the part where I said Commodore was out of business long before Windows 95 came into being? Trying to compare a PC from 1990 with an Amiga is absurd. There was no competition what-so-ever in terms of capability. Business used PCs for a very different reason and what-so-ever you may believe about the sacred "Mac" being still around, it didn't fare any better after Windows95 came out. Had it not been for Steve Jobs, Apple would be in the same history books as Commodore as Apple was almost as inept as Commodore was. Nobody I know actually enjoyed using MS-Dos, after all. They used it because that's what business demanded they use, save desktop publishing. If the "clone alone" theory were true then Apple would have caught up with the PC in the late '90s as Apple DID license them for cloning in the '90s. It may have sold a few more Macs, but it didn't help Apple's bottom line and without Apple, the Mac would have been dead. Maybe if they had licensed them sooner, it might have helped, but it was IBM that made computers acceptable to business in the 1980s.

No one DARED to use hobby machines at the corporate level. So are we talking about massive sales in general or specific markets? The MS-Dos PC didnt' represent a big gaming market in the 1980s. No one in their right mind used them for that except kids that didn't have a any other choice. CGA and EGA games were utter garbage. A C64 had 10x better quality games until around 1990 when VGA started becoming standard. Even then many people didn't even have Soundblaster cards and audio support was all over the map (from Midi to external synthesizers to internal "bleeps" and "blips").

No, Microsoft survived because of BUSINESS, not gaming or hobby or home users. Business users became home users as a result of the need to work on projects at home. Apple IIs were considered educational and gaming machines, not serious business machines. Macs cost too much and seemed to be centered on desktop publishing. If you can't get the same office software for a Mac as MS-Dos machine, game over. Bill Gates was and is a terrible programmer. But he was a marketing genius/devil. He played dirty tricks to destroy competition (signing agreements that gave discounts for MS-Dos and Windows only to dealers who refused to sell competing operating systems and brands like Atari, Commodore and Apple). Eventually, the hardware caught up and gaming was better on PCs by the mid-90s, but Microsoft's future was secured until Windows95 came out. It had far better multitasking than Mac OS7/8/9 even if it was buggy as hell at first. It would have been game over for Apple if Bill Gates himself hadn't stepped in to help save Apple from bankruptcy (helps avoid the monopoly claims). Steve Jobs then managed to save Apple with a combination of iPods and OSX. Once the iPhone came out, the tables turned entirely, but unlike Commodore, Microsoft's massive market share has ensured it's not in danger of going bankrupt any time soon, even if it does have to downsize a bit.

Commodore and Atari by comparison were run by people who knowledge of typewriters and not much else. They got rid of the people that made their great products (Jack Tramiel was forced to step down not long after the C64 and then he mis-gauged the console market while at Atari. The idea that Commodore could have taken the console market from Nintendo is kind of laughable considering the systems Atari put out that failed anyway (e.g. Jaguar). Mario single-handedly killed competitive gaming until Sony came out with the Playstation. After all, adults gamed (if they gamed at all) on computers not, Nintendos. The Commodore 64, however was a HUGE hit and the only reason Commodore survived as long as it did. It was a reasonably priced home computer with huge gaming capabilities for its day. They bought the Amiga and thought it was the same thing (they even offered a so-called "bridge board" that was a MS-Dos PC on a card so it could do "real business" software.) They never saw the Amiga for the true potential it had to be the next era Mac/PC killer. Imagine an Amiga that had the AGA chipset in 1988 or 1989 instead and true color by 1993 (a natural direction to take the custom chips if they had developed them sooner as they had a jump on all modern graphics card makers in 1985). They played with UNIX on an Amiga 3000, but they didn't put any effort into it. They could have had NeXT capabilities in the '90s and "OSX" would be run on Commodore hardware today. But NONE of that could have ever have happened with Commodore being run by the idiots they were run by. Had Steve Jobs been brought on at Commodore in 1990, I think things would have gone a bit differently.

Maybe, however the clip above clearly notes that it uses Workbenck 3.9, the mentioned features did not ship with the original OS, I know that for a fact since I owned an Amiga as well.

I'm saying that doesn't matter one bit what example was given as the tech still existed long before that. I NEVER had Workbench 3.9 EVER and I didn't stop using my Amiga 3000 until 1999. It wouldn't support 3.9 anyway. I STILL had a dock, retargetable graphics, Internet browsers and e-mail, etc. I believe the dock I used was based on NeXT, ironically. I had something called the "MCP" as well an it had a dozen utilities or more built into ONE utility with a nice preference pane to make Workbench into what it COULD/SHOULD have been if Commodore hadn't blundered it. That's to say that Workbench 2.x was a JOKE compared to what it could have been. No, 3rd party software is what kept the Amiga market alive long after it was supposed to be dead. I got another half decade out of mine with (at the time) fairly modern browsers etc. that had no right to exist, all with a 18MB of ram and a 68030 processor.

Besides, calling Workbench 3.9 "official" is a real stretch of the imagination. That German company bought the Amiga rights after Commodore bought the farm and they sat and did literally NOTHING with it for years on end. It got sold yet again to someone else (pushing the idea of an Amiga ONE for years that was based on by then ancient technology as well). No, sadly, the Amiga was bungled over and over and over again. It should have done better. It deserved a lot better. Thankfully, OSX was pretty much everything I hoped the Amiga would be and like Amiga, there are only a few hardware choices (always a negative for the consumer, though).
 
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