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Why the heck does America still use outdated measurement and date units?
- Thread starter garirry
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I haven't read this whole thread, so this may have been commented on, but pictures like this aren't really relevant. Surface area doesn't define the importance of a standard (notice the entire ocean doesn't use metric, but that's not an argument against it).Almost every other country in the world, including China.
There are 7.4 billion people in the world, 3 countries do not use Metric. 2 of them are third world.
http://matadornetwork.com/abroad/metric-map-which-countries-dont-belong-with-the-others/
And amongst those who do not use metric, you don't even use the same measures for gallons and who even knows what else.
Every single one of those countries did not start out with Metric, every single one of them managed to convert.
I'd like to see the US go to metric just because it's more inherently sensible, but the principal reason it doesn't is because it doesn't have to and it would be expensive to change. The relevant chart to show here is more like this:
The US doesn't have to change because it's a huge market and producers are willing to adjust their standards to serve it.
Metric is on my list of things I'd like to world to agree on, but even before that it would be good if we can agree on which punctuation separates the fraction from the integer and which separates every third power of 10 and how many zeros are in a billion or trillion.
Or what day the new year starts on.
And when and if our clocks are going to change randomly because the sun is at a different latitude.
And which floor is the first.
But somehow, we all keep plodding along just fine.
how so?
in metric/decimal:
10 ÷ 3 = 3.333333333333
1/3 = .33333333333
but in imperial:
12 ÷ 3 = 4
one-third of one foot (12 inches) is 4 inches.
(or am i missing smthng?)
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'gringos' is offensive to many americans.
whether or not you mean it offensively, it's often taken as such.
maybe because it's fairly often used in a derogatory manner? ; )
personally, i don't care either way.
but americans being officially termed gringos?
that's definitely not going to happen. sorry
would be kind of cool though.
almost completely unrelated other than something about spanish language and colors..
a slang term of cocaine is yayo.. popularized in the u.s by tony montana's usage of the word in Scarface.
'yayo' is the Spanish pronunciation of the english word 'yellow'.
pure cocaine often takes on a yellow tint.
(i mean, just in case you were wondering)
ha, right.. got upset then called americans gringos as a term of resentment
(not always.. i know.. but sometimes.. you know)
......
and anyway, why the heck would you want to be called 'american'? aren't you from Venezuela?
call yourself Venezuelan.. make sure to pronounce the V more like a B.. that sounds way cooler than 'american' ..or hey, let's trade.
you be 'american' and i can say i'm benezulan
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Check out asteroid naming just for fun.
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If we are going to change base, let's make it 36.Good God. And I thought the imperial vs. metric argument was bananas. I'm assuming you use a DVORAK keyboard as well!
Hell, shoot for the moon...let's go for base 840! Then you have dividers of 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 10, and 12!
Next step, when everybody is a Kanji-level reader.
Correction, I don't really like it because I look for "1200Hz" TVs.
the amount of 36 would be one of the standout numbers in base12 (like how 25,50,75,etc are standouts in base10).. 36 would be how how much cents (for example) the u.s quarter would be worth.. it's 25% of base12's 100.
in base12, it would be written as 30
(25,50,75% would be written 30,60,90..similar to the quarters of a foot 3", 6", 9"
it works that way since, when in (some of) imperial, there are also the numbers of 11 & 12..
1,2,3",4,5,6",7,8,9",10,11,12"
.in metric, there is no such thing as the numbers 11 & 12 unless you are specifically signifying the exact number of 11 or 12.. and for sake of consistency in the decimal system, the numbers 11 or 12 should be called one-teen and two-teen instead of having a specified/unique name
... but in imperial, the number 11 exists in same manner as the numbers 1-9 do.. for example, we can have 8'-11" and we can have 12'-11".. in metric, the number 11 is used exactly one time only)
...and to highlight an inconsistency in imperial, some other parts of it are in base16.. in which the numbers 11-16 are used in addition to the ones used in metric
it's not the amount of factors.. it's the amount of factors in relation to the amount of the base.
base 12 has twelve numbers in it.. and 6 of them are factors.. half of the numbers are also factors of the base.
or, base 840 would need 420 factors to be as powerful as base 12.
well, that, and the fact that going to base840 would require languages to make up 830 new names for all the new numbers we're going to have in the system
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(i get it that you guys aren't being entirely serious with those comments.. still interesting to think about though)
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That's an excellent point you're raising, I admit. However, it won't work like that. In order to switch to a duodecimal system, you'd obviously have to switch the entire numeral system to duodecimal (otherwise, you're just creating more pointless confusion). This is impossible to do for multiple reasons. First, the decimal system has already been established so well that it would be downright unimaginable to make the switch. You'd have to not only re-educate BILLIONS of people, but you'd have to completely change all scientific values and stuff like that. For example, Pi will be completely different. Second, and this is a problem, the language. In languages like English or French, there are individual words for 10, 11 and 12 (ten, eleven, twelve). However, in many languages, such as Hebrew and Japanese, there are no words for this. Instead, you say "ten one" or "ten two" or something alike, meaning you'd have to make to fabricate entirely new words. Imagine if in English, all numbers from 11 to 19 didn't have their own name, like ten-one, ten-two, ten-three, etc. Eleven wouldn't even be a thing, so you'd have to make that word, or alternatively, it could have been some obscure word everyone would have to learn (you can't just go around saying twenty-ten-one, which is 2Ɛ according to you (23)). Finally, like it or not, it's not worth it. This is not a real issue worth fixing, the metric system is based on a numbering system that is currently established as the main system without a DOUBT across the entire planet. Deciding that you're going to change a numbering system across the globe because laziness makes you want to write 3 instead of 2.5 and 4 instead of 3.33? Absolutely, utterly, unnecessary and NOT worth it.
And before anything else, I'd like to mention, that this is NOT the same as the whatever-system to metric conversion process. Everyone decided to go for a single system because having each their own is confusing and pointless. After metric is established worldwide (like the decimal system) and now provides an easy way of communicating measurements with people from different countries, there is zero point in doing any of this. Which just helps my case, as the US not switching to metric is like that one kid in school that works in group and when everyone has already finished, he is still stalling.
right, that's the idea..
switching from base10 counting to base12.
if this were to happen, the imperial system would be dead (see, you'd get your wish finally
).. we'd all then use a system styled after metric since it would unarguably be better than imperial (and better than base10 metric)you would have all the advantages we currently have with metric and you would have the numerical cleanliness of imperial in practical everyday applications.
i'll try another example to show what i mean by cleanliness in practical life.
Pizza:
the best way to slice a pizza is in 12 pieces.. it will handle the most common scenarios in the easiest manner.
buy a pizza to split with friends.. if you are a group of 2 people, you each get 6 slices..
if you are a group of 3 people, you each get 4 slices
if you are a group of 4 people, you each get 3 slices
if there are 5 of you, well, you're arguing
if there are 6, you each get 2 slices
odds are, most times, there will be two people.. next best chance is a group of three.. next likely is a group of 4 of you.. etc.
if you cut it into twelve pieces, you're handling the vast majority of scenarios to be encountered by the pizza eating group..
now cut the pie into ten pieces.
a group of two will get 5 pieces each.
a group of three? well, you're arguing.
4 people splitting a pizza? again, you're arguing
5 people get two slices each
6? not happening.
thirds and fourths which are highly probable divisions can't be done cleanly in decimal.. not until you reach fifths do you finally catch a break in metric.. but fifths simply don't occur nearly as much as the amounts before.
this type of example can be made for nearly every single part of daily life involving numbers.. finances, carpentry, cooking, basic sciences, etcetc.. i'm talking millions and billions calculations per day suddenly become much easier and cleaner if using base12 instead of 10.
i catch your drift but think you're crossing the line with deeming it unimaginable.. it's certainly imaginable.. and for us to actually make the change, it without a doubt starts off with people imagining it happening.
yep, everyone on the planet would need to be reeducated.. or, the people new to our planet could just be educated instead of re-educated
pi wouldn't be completely different.. it would still represent the same exact thing and be derived/used in the same exact way.. it would only be written differently.
right.. you need 3 new words. 'ten, eleven, & twelve' go away.. replaced with 'dek, el, & doh'
10, 11, and 12 would need to go way because you need single digit numbers.. those three are double digit numbers composed of existing numbers..
it would get very confusing to keep 10,11,&12.. it be like the number 4 looking like 23.. or 13.. or 04 or something)...
the new digits would look like a rotated 2 for 10(dek) ᘔ ...a backwards 3 for 11(el) Ɛ.. then 12 would look like 10(doh) (it's 1 unit of the base + 0 additional numbers... same reason 10 looks like 10 in base10)
if implemented at this point in time (more global now), it would be the same spelling and pronunciation for everyone / every language.
yep, this is correct. this would have to happen. but it's not necessarily a reason of why it can't happen.
2Ɛ would be pronounced 'two doh el' (it's 2 units of 12 then another 11).. that's the decimal equivalent of 35
or, if you know the imperial system, it works the same way as feet..
2Ɛ could be thought of as 2'-11" ..or 35"
instead of saying 'feet' for 12, you'd say 'doh'..
2'-11" spoken is "two feet eleven" ..in base12 it's "two doh el"
sure, i understand that on certain levels.. is it worth it for me and my life or you and your life? probably not.
but what about the next few thousand years of humanity? is a 20-30 year of weirdness in our lifetime so important that the next hundred generations should have to deal with a substandard numerical system? which is then accompanied by a substandard measuring system?
(for clarity, i'm saying metric is substandard because of the numbering system it uses.. it's certainly not substandard due to it's cohesive nature-- that's what's sweet about it)
also, with technological advances over the next (a lot of years), we're likely going to encounter or become aware of other intelligence in the universe... it will be highly unlikely that they're using base10.. if they're smarter than us, they'll be using base12.. if they're way way smarter than us then who knows, maybe they don't even have a number system as we think of today.
well no, that's not the reason to change it.. because i'm lazy.
change it because it's an improvement.. and it will improve all generations to come.
are you sure you're not simply resisting change but expressing that feeling by saying 'it's NOT worth it!'
that's not stalling.. we're waiting.. waiting for you and your metric system meet up with us on the moon.. or mars.
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Why would you cut the pie into 10 pieces?
You'd cut the pie into 2 pi pieces OR NOT AT ALL.
You have a valid point overall. Economically, technically, logistically, for trade and manufacturing the USA is out of step with itself and the rest of the world. The date format starting with month never made any logical sense and is designed to cause confusion. I have elderly relatives and younger relations who can easily flip between different units. It's surprising that here in the technologically advanced US we are so behind with this one. USA can be insular.
the amount of 36 would be one of the standout numbers in base12 (like how 25,50,75,etc are standouts in base10).. 36 would be how how much cents (for example) the u.s quarter would be worth.. it's 25% of base12's 100.
in base12, it would be written as 30
(25,50,75% would be written 30,60,90..similar to the quarters of a foot 3", 6", 9"
it works that way since, when in (some of) imperial, there are also the numbers of 11 & 12..
1,2,3",4,5,6",7,8,9",10,11,12"
.in metric, there is no such thing as the numbers 11 & 12 unless you are specifically signifying the exact number of 11 or 12.. and for sake of consistency in the decimal system, the numbers 11 or 12 should be called one-teen and two-teen instead of having a specified/unique name
... but in imperial, the number 11 exists in same manner as the numbers 1-9 do.. for example, we can have 8'-11" and we can have 12'-11".. in metric, the number 11 is used exactly one time only)
...and to highlight an inconsistency in imperial, some other parts of it are in base16.. in which the numbers 11-16 are used in addition to the ones used in metric
it's not the amount of factors.. it's the amount of factors in relation to the amount of the base.
base 12 has twelve numbers in it.. and 6 of them are factors.. half of the numbers are also factors of the base.
or, base 840 would need 420 factors to be as powerful as base 12.
well, that, and the fact that going to base840 would require languages to make up 830 new names for all the new numbers we're going to have in the system
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(i get it that you guys aren't being entirely serious with those comments.. still interesting to think about though)
Dude.....know when to take a joke.
I'd love to see the USA switch to metric measurements completely, but the cost would be extremely exorbitant: you'll have to redesign kitchen appliances, kitchen measuring cups and spoons, food packaging, thermometers of various types, automobile speedometers, highway signs, and weight measurement units to be all metric. And that would be a cost that would make a Pentagon weapons program look cheap in comparison.
say what?
i know you were joking.. i even said as much in the post you're quoting.
if you want to quit talking to me about this then, you know, quit talking to me about this.
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it wouldn't be that hard to switch.. it would have complications, yes.. but not to the extent you're saying.
everything you're mentioning are disposable items.. or, they are all replaced over time anyway.
if the u.s were to switch to metric, there would be a timeframe given prior to switching over.. something like 'all products/signs etc must be metric compliant starting in 2030'.. any time something is replaced up until that time, you'd just buy the metric version so by 2030, most products would already be switched over with only a few (relatively) left which are then forced to be switched.
also, nearly every single product you buy at places like grocery stores already have metric units on the label.. so in those cases, it wouldn't be "start labeling using metric".. it would be "stop labeling using metric & imperial.. use only metric instead"
flat five, it's more than just getting rid of English measurements on food packaging. Food packaging itself will have to be completely redesigned specifically for metric measurements for liquid amounts, food weight, and even size of food. And that may mean even beverage cans will have to be redesigned.
The USA could convert over, but it has to be a project that will take 15 years to complete.
The USA could convert over, but it has to be a project that will take 15 years to complete.
oh, i see what you're saying.. like gallon sized containers would all need redesigned in order to make more sense with metric units.
right.
maybe longer even but yeah, it would take a long time in order to keep the cost of transitioning low..
if it were "u.s must be metric by Jan 1, 2017" then yeah, way more expensive and difficult going that route.
You could still have some packaging with metric labels but weird quantities.
If you use both units, people will disregard the ones they don't like, so then you make the imperial font smaller, and eventually you get rid of it altogether.
I think it is a good place to start as a safe educational tool.
[doublepost=1464452261][/doublepost]I don't think companies would have always a terribly big problem with repackaging, because it happens all the time to some extent, and you would be able to play tricks, like with the switch to the Euro. They could always keep the weird quantities.
And retooling will give a boost to the economy.
If you use both units, people will disregard the ones they don't like, so then you make the imperial font smaller, and eventually you get rid of it altogether.
I think it is a good place to start as a safe educational tool.
[doublepost=1464452261][/doublepost]I don't think companies would have always a terribly big problem with repackaging, because it happens all the time to some extent, and you would be able to play tricks, like with the switch to the Euro. They could always keep the weird quantities.
And retooling will give a boost to the economy.
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It is not very imaginable. Changing an entire numeral system worldwide is too difficult to be doable.
Not that simple buddy. In my argument about how you could just teach people born after a certain year the metric system, I meant to say that you just taught both. "Okay, so this is one metre, there are a thousand metres in a kilometre, and this is a foot, and three of them is a yard" and "I know you're used to using inches but please use centimetres in class, okay?". The reason is quite simple, it's the parents and existing family. For this new duodecimal system, you'd either have to completely reinvent the numbers (not use 0-9) or enforce the new system. Now imagine this, if I'm a student at a school that teaches me the new system. How will I know when once a person says 50, they mean 50 or 60? There's next-to-no context that can be identified using this. If somebody says that their friend is 1.5m tall, it could either mean that they're quite short (1.5m) or quite tall (about 1.8m) with no way to now. And if the size is less, then it's even more difficult to know.yep, everyone on the planet would need to be reeducated.. or, the people new to our planet could just be educated instead of re-educated
So now, everyone will have to learn that pi is now 3.77. Very convenient.
Clearly you have no knowledge of how languages work. You can't just pull out a word out of your ass and say that's the new way to spell it. Sure, I can see how you can use the new proposed characters, that's not a problem considering 0-9 have been globalised at this point, but a serious problem with languages (only exception is a constructed language, but there's only one that's being spoken and even then nobody speaks it).
So now I don't just have to completely adapt myself to a new numeral system, I also have to adapt myself to completely new language rules. Oh wait, that's right, if I know multiple languages I got to not only relearn elementary numbers but I gotta get used to them in each one of those languages. FANTASTIC!
Dude really? This type of change may take not just 30 years, it may take up to a hundred, if not more. If we all switched today, there's no way I'll even be alive when the madness ends. Besides, I'll repeat what I said before. Your only argument for this is that you can't easily divide 10 by 4 (without having a rest) or 3 (without having a repeating number). Just because 0.33 is causing a bit of problems means that we should **** up the entire human population by switching to a 12-unit system?
I don't even
It's not nearly enough of an improvement to be considered. If it was a base 7 system, then maybe you'd be right. This is a base 10 system, which works very well. You only need to change if it's causing serious problems. And as I said in my OP, I usually don't like changes when I'm used to something, but once I see that it's worth it, I end up doing it anyway. I don't think base 12 is worth it. Not at all.
Yeah well the rest of the world is still waiting for you to adopt metric, celsius, and a semi-decent date format so we could communicate like normal human beings.that's not stalling.. we're waiting.. waiting for you and your metric system meet up with us on the moon.. or mars.
My grandparents adopted Skype faster than you people could adopt new standards.
In the age of Google and Siri, doesn't really matter to be honest.
And there is no real reason to change. Like literally, it would serve no purpose at all.
And there is no real reason to change. Like literally, it would serve no purpose at all.
The ultimate problem is that you're just blinding assuming that people in the US AREN'T taught the metric system.
That is absolutely not the case-I learned it in first grade and continue use it daily at work.
That doesn't change the fact that-after 13 pages, some people just don't understand the concept that THE UNITS DON'T MATTER.
Man, flat five is really obsessed with this base 12 thing...
I think it's how all of your different units compare to each other that matters.
I think it's how all of your different units compare to each other that matters.