Why the heck does America still use outdated measurement and date units?

[flat five]

if you don't want to do that then fine.. i don't really care though it may seem like i do since i keep talking about it here.
but definitely recognize you're most certainly wasting your time with the campaign for present day americans to rename themselves and/or their country.. 100% complete wasting your time.

ok @cube..

maybe not 100% wasting your time.
but for now, how about laying off it a little because we're currently in the process of trying to situate some naming discrepancies within our own country.

as far as equality and humanity goes, there are some pretty lame names used within the borders of the u.s

let us deal with these things first then once that issue is cleared up, we can move efforts beyond the borders .. but if we don't or can't clear up our own problems in these regards, we're not going to be much use on a global scale either.

---
or hey.. how about we all join up and be one world?
that'd probably be sweetest imo

 

[flat five]

Why is it that there are 24 hours in a day and not 100? Why is it that there is 7 days in a week and not 10? Why is it that February has 28 days and the rest 30 or 31? Why is it called February to begin with?


How do you know which months have 30 and which ones don't?

use the high and low points of your knuckles/fingers.. duh.
works great for counting numbers apparently so might as well use it for month length as well



---
fwiw, the french did actually try to bring in decimal time/weeks/calender/etc along with the metric system .. it was in use for about 12 years but just couldn't catch on.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_Republican_Calendar

The revolutionary system was designed in part to remove all religious and royalist influences from the calendar, and was part of a larger attempt at decimalisation in France (which also included decimal time of day, decimalisation of currency, and metrication).

 

[JeffyTheQuik]

<well explained logic deleted for space and it isn't my point that I'm responding to>
what's bugging me most is the freaking attitude "you all do this now because i say so.. you need to add and subtract and write this way because my system is superior and your mathematics&measuring capabilities are outdated.. I refuse to accept any other ideas besides my own as viable alternatives.. etcetcetc..

like -- you're telling me to do all these stupid things , for your pleasure, while you sit there and do absolutely nothing..

you want to see a change in measuring ? ok.. i'm definitely game.. (should be obvious now, right?)..

so LET'S change then.. get on with it already.

..oh? you don't want to lift a damn finger and simply want to sit around telling me what to do.. for no good reason but for a bunch of bad reasons?

hmmm... no thanks
ok?
deal

It's a control thing. You do this, and then I'll like you. If you don't, well, then you're dumb for using a system that works well for you and not me. You need to change to suit me, because I'm using it, it must be the right thing, so you change.

Welcome to the club*.

*The club of things that work for me but others have problems with so its my problem.

 

[Benjamin Frost]

I wasn't aware that measurements and date units had an expiry date.

Being serious, here in Blighty, we have a merry mix of Imperial and Metric. Pints of beer, litres of petrol. But we measure in miles per gallon. But although we use miles, metric is used for measurements generally. Unless you use imperial. Temperature in centigrade, unless it gets hot, when we switch to Fahrenheit, as 100° is a good number. Land in acres. Property volume in square metres or square feet. Cooking mostly in metric unless you're old. But personal weight in stone. Height in feet.

But at least we use commas in numbers, not full stops like the barmy French.

It's all perfectly logical.

 

[flat five]

I wasn't aware that measurements and date units had an expiry date.

Being serious, here in Blighty, we have a merry mix of Imperial and Metric. Pints of beer, litres of petrol. But we measure in miles per gallon. But although we use miles, metric is used for measurements generally. Unless you use imperial. Temperature in centigrade, unless it gets hot, when we switch to Fahrenheit, as 100° is a good number. Land in acres. Property volume in square metres or square feet. Cooking mostly in metric unless you're old. But personal weight in stone. Height in feet.

But at least we use commas in numbers, not full stops like the barmy French.

It's all perfectly logical.

ha. nice

how about wine? metric for you?
in the u.s, it's always measured in metric
(assuming you're not buying it buy the glass... if you're buying it by the glass, the unit becomes the how_cool_is_my_bartender unit )

more on drinks.. we buy soft drinks using metric.. at least, as long as you're getting a larger quantity.. smaller sized bottles/cups are sold in imperial.

 

[JeffyTheQuik]

I wasn't aware that measurements and date units had an expiry date.

Being serious, here in Blighty, we have a merry mix of Imperial and Metric. Pints of beer, litres of petrol. But we measure in miles per gallon. But although we use miles, metric is used for measurements generally. Unless you use imperial. Temperature in centigrade, unless it gets hot, when we switch to Fahrenheit, as 100° is a good number. Land in acres. Property volume in square metres or square feet. Cooking mostly in metric unless you're old. But personal weight in stone. Height in feet.

But at least we use commas in numbers, not full stops like the barmy French.

It's all perfectly logical.

I never understood the "stone" thing (I always have to look it up). "She lost 5 stone!" was quite a feat, from what I remember, and even more so if it was from her feet.

 

[flat five]

lol.
i have no clue how much a stone weighs other than i see it most often used with measuring a person sized thing.. i'll guess 15lbs..
brb.
14lbs! close : )

 

[bunnspecial]

Being serious, here in Blighty, we have a merry mix of Imperial and Metric. Pints of beer, litres of petrol. But we measure in miles per gallon

As I've mentioned several times in this thread, I have an old MG, and the assorted fun measurements that go with it. I've mentioned before that most parts on the car are SAE with the occasional British fastener thrown in. The only metric fasteners on the car are ones installed by a previous owner, and it's quite frustrating to have to get up and get the metric sockets or wrenches out of the tool box when I find one(most recently it was the bolts hold the tie rod ends in place-fortunately the replacements were a nice, proper 13/16".

In any case, on one of the MG forums recently someone said "If you're getting more than 30mpg, you should take a look at your carburetors because they're probably too lean and you need to fix it before you burn a valve." One guy in England piped in and said that he regularly gets 36mpg on long trips. The problem, of course, is that he was referring to imperial gallons and not US gallons, and it turns out that he was getting right at 30mpg once you took the time to do the math.

Another frustrating one happened when I changed the oil in the transmissions. The stated volume in the service manual-I think-was 5 1/2 imperial pints. I ordered 3 quarts of Redline MT-90(not cheap at about $20/quart) thinking I'd be fine. In fact, 5 1/2 imperial pints is more like 3.3 US quarts, so I'd ordered too little(I topped the rest up with factory-recommended SAE 20W-50).

 

[flat five]

another fun fact in imperial.. if your shoe size is u.s.men 10.5, which is the most common sized mens footwear.. then one foot is the dimension of your shoe.

 

[Benjamin Frost]

Actually, it does defy logic. This form may be how it is spoken in everyday speech, but it is more logical to run a sequence of dates from small to large, (or vice versa) when putting them in writing.

The problem with the US system is that the spoken form and the written form differ. Format and structure and logic matter more in writing, and writing prioritises an agreed accepted standard, - which is how language becomes standardised (otherwise local media would reflect local accents and would be unintelligible to those not from that region if the accent was especially strong) which the US system is not; it is merely a written version of a form of speech, a triumph of informal usage, over logical precision.

And, as someone who has been a professional historian, dates are something I have consumed, and devoured and utilised. Dates matter, and whatever about accepting the Imperial (gloriously impractical, but with its own internal coherence), alongside the metric, I can never see myself using the US method of rendering time, mainly because it makes no sense.

It actually does make sense.

If you're using dates in everyday conversation, you don't need to refer to the year normally; you're talking about dates in the current year. So the year is irrelevant.

Next, let's look at days and months. If you say the month first, it immediately gives you a focusing in on when you are talking about. If you start with a day of the month, you could be talking about any month. Therefore, for clarity, it is easier for the brain to process if the month is given first followed by the day. That way, we hone in quickly on the time of year—the month—which is then pinpointed with more exactitude by the precise day.
[doublepost=1464607509][/doublepost]

This one is perhaps the easiest to explain... In spoken American English, we nearly always refer to the month first, then the day, then the year, "Today is May eighth, twenty-sixteen." Nobody I know says, "Today is eight May (or the eighth of May), twenty-sixteen." It would be madness to change the notation method without also changing the spoken language.

Spoken date syntax is different in other nations and languages, and, quite logically, their method of date notation follows that spoken usage. So....

You want a major cause to promote? Try world-wide language standardization. That'll fix that date notation problem in an instant! I won't get into the pros and cons of which language the world should speak. Just consider the benefits of everyone speaking the same language; for mutual understanding, for easy dissemination of information, for the manufacture of goods... I'd imagine the U.S. will go metric long before such a thing happened.

Back in the '70s, the U.S. attempted metrification. It was widely unpopular in some circles, regardless of how logical it all seemed to me. I could blame the end of metrification on a particular president, but ultimately, it was all pandering to populist sentiment - every politician panders to someone. Since those days, anti-Federalism has become an ever-stronger force in the U.S., so it's become nearly impossible to try to implement any nation-wide effort, especially if the proponents' argument is based almost solely on logic. As Spock might observe, "Logic is not an American trait, Jim." America is a land where belief Trumps logic at every turn.

I think it's the equivalent of what goes on in the UK regarding the Euro and Pound. There's a whole lot of emotion, much of it tied into a nation's view of its place in the world, and all the fantasies and delusion that go with it.

In the big scheme of things, the world needs a single currency, a single language, a single system of weights and measures, a single government, a uniform system of taxation... And about the only way it's likely to happen is if Earth is conquered by extraterrestrials and nobody feels the need to rebel against those extraterrestrials.

Utter rubbish.

The world needs a unified system for everything like it needs a hole in the head.

Vive la différence.
[doublepost=1464607622][/doublepost]

As I've mentioned several times in this thread, I have an old MG, and the assorted fun measurements that go with it. I've mentioned before that most parts on the car are SAE with the occasional British fastener thrown in. The only metric fasteners on the car are ones installed by a previous owner, and it's quite frustrating to have to get up and get the metric sockets or wrenches out of the tool box when I find one(most recently it was the bolts hold the tie rod ends in place-fortunately the replacements were a nice, proper 13/16".

In any case, on one of the MG forums recently someone said "If you're getting more than 30mpg, you should take a look at your carburetors because they're probably too lean and you need to fix it before you burn a valve." One guy in England piped in and said that he regularly gets 36mpg on long trips. The problem, of course, is that he was referring to imperial gallons and not US gallons, and it turns out that he was getting right at 30mpg once you took the time to do the math.

Another frustrating one happened when I changed the oil in the transmissions. The stated volume in the service manual-I think-was 5 1/2 imperial pints. I ordered 3 quarts of Redline MT-90(not cheap at about $20/quart) thinking I'd be fine. In fact, 5 1/2 imperial pints is more like 3.3 US quarts, so I'd ordered too little(I topped the rest up with factory-recommended SAE 20W-50).

I always wondered why American cars seemed to get so few miles to the gallon until I read your posts. My Golf currently does 43 mpg with mostly city driving, which is 35.8 mpg in American gallons.

Thanks for clearing that up!
[doublepost=1464608304][/doublepost]

ha. nice

how about wine? metric for you?
in the u.s, it's always measured in metric
(assuming you're not buying it buy the glass... if you're buying it by the glass, the unit becomes the how_cool_is_my_bartender unit )

more on drinks.. we buy soft drinks using metric.. at least, as long as you're getting a larger quantity.. smaller sized bottles/cups are sold in imperial.

Wine is metric, yes. 750ml bottles, which is six glasses of 125, of course.

Milk is sold in both pints and litres. If in litres, it's 1 litre or 2 litres. Otherwise, it's either 1 pint, 2 pints, 4 pints or 6 pints. Remember, our pints are bigger than American ones.
[doublepost=1464608466][/doublepost]

I never understood the "stone" thing (I always have to look it up). "She lost 5 stone!" was quite a feat, from what I remember, and even more so if it was from her feet.

Lol.

Yes, 5 stone is a lot. I guess the average guy here weighs 11-13 stone if he's not fat, the average chick 8-10.

 

[Scepticalscribe]

Well, even in conversation, I will use (as will most Europeans) the day first - the 12th September - rather than the month. Both orally, and in writing, that is what we do.

 

[Benjamin Frost]

well, it works better.

i'm sorry but your (not necessarily 'you' in particular.. same goes for the rest of this post) argument is based around the metric system as it was learned in school (and fwiw, americans also learn the basics in school.. like- no use trying to teach americans your basic understanding of the metric system because we already know it.)

i mean, just look how easy metric is:
1m = 100cm = 1000mm
wow, so easy

now-- try to use metric in a typical scenario you'll encounter when needing to actually use the system..

divide a cm in half.. ok, 5mm (but 5 is prime.. no further calculations are possible with it.)
divide it in thirds.. you can't.. (or, you can't divide it in thirds then have a corresponding mark on your scale.. you're immediately faced with needing to use a workaround on a very simple task)
divide it in fourths.. can't
fifths? ok, two..
sixths? can't

now do that with a foot.
half? 6"
thirds? 4"
fourths? 3"
fifths? can't
sixths? 2"

in this elementary example, imperial makes a lot more sense and is the better system to use.

that's because it's not strictly based around base10

base10 is not the best choice for mathematics even though most of you metric users like to boast "look how easy it is.. it's all base10!!" :/

base12 or base16 is the better way to count.. 10 is not a magic number.. we use base10 for counting because we have 10 fingers..that's it. that's all the reason there is behind the use of base10.. it's like math for dummies.

with base12 or 16, there are far more options available for practical and even more complicated mathematics.

imperial has many examples of these alternate bases.. this is why america continues to use it. it's a superior system in many ways.

----
other than coming in here with "why does america use outdated systems" and sounding a fool, you'd be better off if you actually learned both systems (metric being one of these that you need to learn because it's sort of obvious you don't really use it for much).. compare the positives and negatives of both.. and lobby for a new worldwide system that draws from both because neither is perfect.. neither is better.

the best thing we can take from metric is that it's a coherent system (as in, this is the single strongest positive for the metric system yet no-one in the thread is arguing this point).. it was developed (moreOrLess) as a whole system.
with metric, you can transfer between all the various fields without conversions factors.

a cube 10cm x 10cm x 10cm is 1liter.
1 liter of water at 0ºC is 1kilogram.
etc.
you're able to more easily do calculations between things like distance,volume,weight,temperature,electricity,etc since they're all based off one another.. this is the reason many scientists/engineers prefer metric.. it's not because of the numbering scheme.

the same exact numbering scheme in metric is also in imperial if so desired so "math is easier with metric" is complete bollocks..
engineers using imperial are generally using decimal inches or decimal feet.. in which case, the number work exactly the same as metric.. in many cases, the same prefixes/naming scheme are even used. for instance:
microinch

but in many practical use cases, these decimal inches are inferior since they don't correlate with common tasks that need to be done..
this is where base12 would be of benefit.

the best system for modern day humans would be one with the coherent nature of metric combined with (some of) the numerical logic of imperial.
[doublepost=1464054494][/doublepost]
lol. uh,
.3333333333333333333 ft. is 4 inches.
4" has a corresponding mark on the tape measure.

Excellent post, and I agree completely.

It seems to me that metric was designed primarily for scientists, who then insisted on imposing it on the general population. But when it comes to everyday use, imperial simply makes more sense for all the reasons you've stated.

From a Fibonacci/Golden Section perspective, using bases of 8, 12, 16 etc. strikes me as probably more harmonious, too, particularly due to 3 and 8, numbers which divide neatly into 12, but not into 10.
[doublepost=1464612225][/doublepost]

There have been some very silly things said in this thread. Others have rightly pointed out the intolerance of the pro-metric fanatics, unable to accept any society being different. Funny how those who often talk about "diversity" get so annoyed when anyone is different in this respect.

To clear up a couple of issues - those who keep bringing up the accident with the Mars orbiter are hardly helping their case - the problem would have been avoided had the entire thing just been handled in non-metric units.

Pointing to a map of the world and saying how many use the metric system doesn't mean anything. And worse still it was often brought in by blood-soaked tyrannies. Indeed the system was borne of a violent oppressive revolution that sought to destroy society's links to the past. There was even a metric calendar and clock.

The issue of Fahrenheit is neither here nor there but Centigrade isn't more "logical" by setting water's boiling point at 100 degrees. In many ways that is irrelevant to most people apart from scientists - the most commonly measured temperature is the weather outside for which Fahrenheit is more logical. Fahrenheit is more useful for many as when it's very very cold outside it tends towards zero and when very very hot outside it tends towards a hundred. And normal life is in the middle. When was the last time it was 100 degrees Centigrade outside?

I perhaps have a wider perspective than most. I grew up in Greece and France but have spent my working life in Britain, the USA, India and China. From the age of 10-14 I was lucky enough to attend a British international school where the Headmaster was an ex-solder from the Second World War who was determined, against the wishes of some of the other teachers, to give us the chance to learn the standard English measurements. So I can use both systems without trouble and I see they both have advantages.

In any system you generally have to choose between the most useful units (the imperial system does this) or the most logical, ordered relationship between units (the metric approach). It is unsurprising that the metric system is favoured by most scientists. It's equally unsurprising that most people if given the choice will tend to resist the metric system in normal life. England is a good example - for a century they were allowed to use both systems. Human beings tend to be creative and flexible - so they took a handful of useful metric measurements and otherwise continued with their customary units. They only went metric, officially, when the EU forced it on them using a Statutory Instrument to overturn, in a case controversial to this day, a law made by heir democratic legislature. It involved an absurd undercover sting by police officers arresting a man for selling banana by the lb as his customers wanted - a shocking thing in a supposedly free society. Note it well, Americans - the pro-metric brigade are almost always authoritarian. They are the same ones who will attack the 1st and 2nd Amendments. Given free choice people tend to do what is most useful and not most ideological. America remains in some respects, not all but some, one of the most free nations on earth - it is entirely logical that they use customary measures. China is a repressive tyranny and therefore it isn't surprising that it uses the metric system. With the exception of Burma, so far as I can tell every dictatorship of the last century has used the metric system.

In day to day life the customary system is considerably more sophisticated than the metric system, having been honed over many centuries to give the most useful measurements. It tends to result in units of 3 or 6 or 12, simple fractions and easy combinations. In contrast the metric system often results in hundreds of this or so many milli- of that. Now if one is discussing astronomy, where one jumps between millions and billions, where one multiplies things by huge numbers, then the metric system has an obvious advantage. If one wishes to bake a cake or build a house though the metric system is far more crude and lacks the relationship to human lives. Have you ever thought to yourself, is this door supposed to be 3 feet wide or 3 billion feet wide? Should I use 3 eggs or 3 billion eggs? This sort of issue is easier to resolve in the metric system. It's also irrelevant to 99.9999% of people.

The easiest way to grasp this is to look at the way we measure time. There is an SI unit - that is the second. Yet if I said to you I will meet you in 552,543,345 seconds you would be dumbfounded. If I said I would meet you next Tuesday at half past three you would instantly understand. What could be less metric, less "logical" than a system of time measurement with 60 seconds to a minute, 60 minutes to an hour, 7 days to a week, 52 weeks and 365 1/4 days to a year (the quarter not even being used except every four years) etc? On paper it's crazy. Just as, for those who have never learnt to use it, the imperial system looks a bit mad - 12 inches to a foot etc. Yet in practice both just work. Days, minutes, hours are all useful measurements in real life even if multiplying one of them by a million is harder than a metric calendar. And likewise inches, pounds, miles are all useful measurements in real life. As I said it's telling, the elite had to force it in England, good ideas don't have to be forced on people.

This thread is a timely reminder that many of those most fanatically in favour of forcing the metric system onto everyone in normal life are intolerant and authoritarian. Having spent some time in the USA it was nice to see the system I had learnt about in school being used in day to day life. I realised that it was a good marker, though not black and white, of freedom. As England has become less and less free over recent decades, as it has had authoritarian governments and had foreign legislation forced upon it she has also lost her customary measures.

George Orwell understood it well and in the future "1984" he was very careful to make sure that the tyrannical regime had abolished pints and replaced it with litres. Even the most extreme pro-metric fanatic accepts they will have to wait decades before they destroy the English fondness for a pint of beer. Yet they will try one day. My suggestion to Americans is stick to your guns, stand up for freedom and common sense, and don't let others push you around. Using customary measures is rather like putting faith in your constitution; it annoys those with utopian ideas about reforming human nature and yet, for all its apparent illogicalities, it has served well in practice while utopians have caused so much human misery.

One of the best posts I've ever read on MacRumors.

I wish England would get rid of litres and sell petrol, milk and other liquids in gallons and pints like they used to. Our politicians are such a stupid bunch.
[doublepost=1464613126][/doublepost]

He might have 6 fingers on each hand...

As opposed to 4 fingers and a thumb. 8 fingers in total. 2 thumbs. Neat divisions of base12...
[doublepost=1464613776][/doublepost]

Well, even in conversation, I will use (as will most Europeans) the day first - the 12th September - rather than the month. Both orally, and in writing, that is what we do.

It depends on the context.

If one is referring to the current month, one can simply say "the 13th" or whatever. But if one is referring to a future month, one says "June 8th."

 

[Scepticalscribe]

It depends on the context.

If one is referring to the current month, one can simply say "the 13th" or whatever. But if one is referring to a future month, one says "June 8th."

Actually, no.

When speaking, - let us say about the upcoming referendum - I will say it is scheduled to take place on the 26th June.

This morning, on the phone, I discussed - at some length - dates in September, arranging for care matters for my mother, and every day we referred to started with a reference to the day of the the date, (usually cited to as an ordinal number), followed by the month.

 

[bunnspecial]

FWIW, I've seen references in this thread to scientists using the metric system. This actually isn't universally true. For example, the SI unit for pressure is the Pascal, equal to 1 newton of force over 1 square meter. This is an impractically small number for many applications, so if it is used at all the kPa is more common-atmospheric pressure, for example, is ~101.3 kPa.

With that said, even in literature you will find a fair bit of variation. Atmospheres(atm) are common in high pressure application, as are bars(1 bar=100,000 Pa). Even PSI is often considered an acceptable unit. For vacuum applications, torr(mm Hg) is ubiquitous although I do occasionally see it stated in bars. In fact, the other day I was looking at an overview of Orbitrap mass spectrometers with something else, and I saw the pressure within the trap listed as 10^-13 bar. Since torr is the unofficial standard for these type of measurement, my jaw dropped because it's quite difficult to achieve a vacuum of 10^-13 torr. After realizing that the pressure was listed in bar, I did a quick mental calculation to com up with a more reasonable 10^-11 torr.

Out in the "real word" atmospheric pressures are often stated in either bars or inches of mercury.

BTW, this remains my favorite way to express PSI-brought to you by the good folks of British Leyland in 1970

 

[flat five]

with regards to writing dates..

if i'm writing or typing a date, i'll always use the first three letters of the month, the number of the day, then 4 digit year.

Jun 8, 1987
Aug 22, 1979
etc.

i feel this is readable by everyone. (and you can switch those around in any order you feel and they'll still make sense)


..if i'm filling out a form where a desired format is requested, then i'll use that format.. (you know.. the forms with the lightly printed MM/DD/YEAR or YYYY/MM/DD (etc) in the section you'll be writing over..

on computers, segments of dates are pretty much always entered in their own fields.
Month - 09
Day - 24
Year - 2004

nowadays, the year is often requested via a dropdown menu.
or, they're generally entered in whichever way the software is formatted to use the data..

idk, i really think this particular subject of dates is being exaggerated as being problematic.. write the date in whatever format the particular requestee is requesting.. they usually spell out the format they're looking for clear as day and unobtrusively.

if no format is being requested then you can pretty much assume your writing of the date isn't going to be used for anything anyway and you're just asked to write it as a formality..
but, to me, in those cases.. it's best just to use letters for the month instead of numbers as it will eliminate confusion if confusion is trying to be avoided (imo)
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Actually, no.

When speaking, - let us say about the upcoming referendum - I will say it is scheduled to take place on the 26th June.

This morning, on the phone, I discussed - at some length - dates in September, arranging for care matters for my mother, and every day we referred to started with a reference to the day of the the date, (usually cited to as an ordinal number), followed by the month.

wouldn't you just say the days in that situation?
why keep saying September when it's already been established?

like.

a- "It's almost my birthday!"
b- "yeah? when?"
a- "on the 6th!"
b- "kewl.. let's get wasted"

no need to even mention June as it's the only month that makes sense..

in many everyday usages, the month has already been established or it's obvious the current month is the one being spoken of.. in which case, you don't even have to mention the month.

and that's a similar logic followed be many people speaking of dates... establish the month first if it hasn't been already.. then the day.

July 17th

that's the particular logic path i tend to follow regarding speaking of dates but i certainly don't believe my way is the best way.. it's an equally valid approach as the next guy's logic.

if you want to tell me the date "17th July" then feel free.. i understand it just as readily..
sort of a non-issue here and in most cases where the clarity of the date is of importance, it's been handled through technology.. or it's most certainly easily sorted by the individuals doing the discussing.

 

[Scepticalscribe]

Yes, but the confusion arises because of the US system of mm/dd/yyyy which differs from the European one (which I personally find a lot more convenient and am comfortable with) dd/mm/yyyy.

Anyway, I doubt we either of us will succeed in even remotely convincing the other that there is merit in our respective positions.

 

[Benjamin Frost]

Yes, but the confusion arises because of the US system of mm/dd/yyyy which differs from the European one (which I personally find a lot more convenient and am comfortable with) dd/mm/yyyy.

Anyway, I doubt we either of us will succeed in even remotely convincing the other that there is merit in our respective positions.

You've convinced me that there is merit in my position.

 

[JeffyTheQuik]

I brought it up earlier, and here is a second attempt.

Why does America have Remembrance Day in May when the rest of the world (OK, not everyone) honors those that died in war in November?

<Argument for why Americans just don't "get it" here. You fill it in, and whatever you put here, make sure it impugns Americans for not being "like the rest of the world," and is entirely specious.>

 

[flat five]

Yes, but the confusion arises because of the US system of mm/dd/yyyy which differs from the European one (which I personally find a lot more convenient and am comfortable with) dd/mm/yyyy.

how is it more convenient?
it's the exact same numbers, the exact same symbols,etc.

like, i get it if your reasoning is "i'm more comfortable this way".. sure, you probably are.

but more convenient? bollocks


(not sure if i'm using 'bollocks' properly.. trying though )

for clarity, i'm definitely not trying to say my way is the best way.. i'm saying that in all or most scenarios where the clarity of date is of importance, then this has been handled though technology.

the confusion doesn't arise because of what you're saying about americans doing mm/dd/yy instead of dd/mm/yy.

for example, how confused are you about what day this document was drafted on:

?

not confused at all.. am i right?
you know exactly what day that's referring to and aren't left wondering "hmm. do they mean 04/07 or 07/04?"

if the declaration of independence were written during that small segment of time when computing devices were first becoming available and the idea was to make humans try to talk to computers in a way the computer can understand.. well, yeah, then we might have a problem.. it would have been written 07-04-1776 and you wouldn't know what exact day was being referenced since americans are weird and write stuff backwards compared to you.


the confusion with these dating formats in this thread are not because which order the things are written in.. it's because there once (not tooo long ago) was the notion that humans must learn how to communicate with computers in a standard and easy to read format (because computers are dumb and humans are smart so the onus is on people to clear up the confusion)..
but we found out pretty quickly that .. hmm, maybe computers are the smart ones and humans are dumb so let's try that a little differently.. how about the computer tells the human exactly the format it's desiring.. then the computer can translate the data into usable numbers.. this way, the humans don't have to do anything because, as we've seen, they're simply going to screw it up in these regards.

any confusion you may be experiencing over this issue is not to do with americans or brits or indians..
it's because you're trying to write something in numbers that's actually meant to be written in letters -- alongside two other number that are meant to be written in numbers.

you're seemingly convinced that dates should be written number/number/number when in reality, they only needed to written that way for a short period of time for a new technology.. this particular tech has now far surpassed the need to have humans making an attempt at doing this translation so we should, most certainly, go back to writing months using letters.

it eliminates all confusion.. that is the solution
Dec 12, 2013
May 30, 2016
etc.
you can then write those things in any order you fancy but the confusion will not be happening.

(if it's actually a solution you're looking for.. if you're simply trying to find goofy little things to whine at americans about then srry for wasting your time making you read this)

 

[Scepticalscribe]

You know, one of the things I have noticed here is the extraordinarily intemperate tone taken by some of my Transatlantic Cousins when someone disputes how they choose to see the world.

Are verbs such as 'whine' necessary? And bollocks? Really? This is a debating term you would use in normal conversation?

is it possible to have an online disagreement with some of our Transatlantic Cousins without recourse to expletives?

Anyway, when writing large blocs of text, capital letters are nice; they break up the text, and advise my eyes when a natural pause occurs. Indeed, my eyes are used to reading them when perusing text.

Quoting how the date is re-produced on the original text of the Declaration of Independence (a fine document, by the way, beautifully written, philosophically impressive, and historically significant) fails to move me.

The sequence of day, month year are how I write dates, and yes, how I describe them in speech.

But, you know, we can agree to differ.

To my mind, and my eye, the US format of rendering month, day and year is baffling. To yours, it makes perfect sense.

 

[flat five]

You know, one of the things I have noticed here is the extraordinarily intemperate tone taken by some of my Transatlantic Cousins when someone disputes how they choose to see the world.

Are verbs such as 'whine' necessary? And bollocks? Really? This is a debating term you would use in normal conversation?

is it possible to have an online disagreement with some of our Transatlantic Cousins without recourse to expletives?

bollocks is an expletive ?
if so, i really didn't mean it in such a way.. thought it was more fun loving type of word.
srry

Quoting how the date is re-produced on the original text of the Declaration of Independence (a fine document, by the way, beautifully written, philosophically impressive, and historically significant) fails to move me.

The sequence of day, month year are how I write dates, and yes, how I describe them in speech.

But, you know, we can agree to differ.

To my mind, and my eye, the US format of rendering month, day and year is baffling. To yours, it makes perfect sense.

i think you've completely missed my point.

i'm not even differing with you or saying you're wrong or saying i'm right. (don't know how many times i should say this until it sinks in).

is there a problem that could lead to confusion? sure, could be.
why is there a problem? because people are trying to write months with numbers for no reason.. nothing to do with what country you grew up in.

how is the problem solvable? all of us agree to make a change.

(actually, we don't all need to agree on this particular thing.. i write my dates in a way that most people can understand regardless of their preferred format.. so this is something that can be solved on individual levels for anyone wanting to participate)

 

[mojolicious]

Why does America have Remembrance Day in May when the rest of the world (OK, not everyone) honors those that died in war in November?

The US Memorial Day began life after the American Civil War as one of several such days, eventually subsuming all others. For Australians and New Zealanders the 'big' day of remembrance is ANZAC Day on 25 April, the date of the first ANZAC landings at Gallipoli. But all three countries mark Remembrance/Armistice/Veterans Day on 11 November.

In Germany the major act of remembrance is Volkstrauertag, which has shifted around the calendar a few times (the last time to place some distance between the Nazi and post-war 'versions') but now takes place two Sundays before Advent (ie mid to upper-mid November). Given German feelings towards the Armistice, this is probably as close as they can get to acknowledging 11 November. It's also a slightly wishy washy 'all victims of violence' affair. There's no such ambiguity with the former Soviet countries, who go for Victory Day on 9 May, the date of Germany's formal surrender in 1945.

 

[smallcoffee]

Yes, but the confusion arises because of the US system of mm/dd/yyyy which differs from the European one (which I personally find a lot more convenient and am comfortable with) dd/mm/yyyy.

Anyway, I doubt we either of us will succeed in even remotely convincing the other that there is merit in our respective positions.

I prefer writing dd/mm/yyyy because it follows an order that makes more sense, but in practice I don't see much of a difference. I don't know why anybody gives a crap about it unless you have absolutely no idea what somebody is saying.

 

[Micky Do]

I prefer writing dd/mm/yyyy because it follows an order that makes more sense, but in practice I don't see much of a difference. I don't know why anybody gives a crap about it unless you have absolutely no idea what somebody is saying.

01/04/2016

1 Apr 2016 I'd have thought, but could be fooled.

 

[flat five]

if i'm going to take the time and effort and resource to switch, i'm going to switch to something that's better than imperial.. not something that's more limiting.. if i'm switching, i'm going to switch to a measuring system that functions very much like metric, has the unity of metric, except it's in base12 instead of decimal.

... for example, if i could go back in time to the metrification era and could gain access to the King of France, here's what i'd be proposing..



(click for larger view)


some points:

• an inch is in base16.. a foot is in base12 so it's mostly the foot in this thread which i've been using for examples of base12 in real world applications.. if we moved to a unified system in base12, the inch as we know it would certainly change too.. to something like shown in the image.

• cm has every decimal (the black dots) being marked by a tick (millimeters).. this is a desirable aspect of metric and one of the major reasons often cited as metric being superior.. the divisions make more sense in relation to the base... with an inch, only one decimal falls on a tick (.5).

• inch has more clean & unique divisions (4) where as cm has 3.. one of the cm divisions comes up a lot in everyday usages.. 1/2 ..the others? not so much (1/5 and 1/10)... the inch fairs better in this regard as it has 1/2 along with quarters and eighths.

• the image is to scale.. my personal wish would have the unit being approximately the length of 2cm (well, i drew this one at exactly 2x cm).. this results in division ticks that are just a little bit bigger than a sixteenth inch which are pretty comfortable to use.. these ones are slightly larger.. mm are too small imo for everyday use and they're too small to divide down into more precise work if need be. (i'll call them sub-marks)

• the sub-marks (shown in orange),or, points which fall exactly half way been the standard marks -- with an inch, you catch the 32nds via sub-marks.. in metric, you can use .25 to catch quarters (but again, imo, a mm is too small to do this in practical use).. both of these are usable numbers to some degree (and they would be more apparent when scaling up to, say, the proposed units' meter instead of centimeter)

the proposed unit does a few sweet things when using base12 on it in a similar fashion to using base10 on a cm..
these being:

• as with metric, all decimals correspond with tick marks (well, duodecimals now).. a metric user could get comfortable with the new numbering system then use this scale without even re-learning how to use it because it's exactly set up the way they've already learned.

• in base12 however, all of the decimal marks are ALSO fractional marks.. and very useful ones at that.. much more useful than decimal division AND more useful than imperial since we'd now have the often desired 1/3 mark.

• sub-marks on the proposed unit will allow you to re-gain the 1/8 mark which is lost from the inch as well as add 24ths into the picture

(note- i wrote the fractional elements of the proposed unit in base10 for consistent comparison.. in base12, 1/12 and 1/24 would be written 1/10 and 1/20)

----
in fear of making another annoyingly long post, i'll stop here
just wanted to give some visuals as to what i've been talking about via this little example.. but like metric, the proposed system is coherent so you can take this example and apply it to everything else in the system to get an idea of various sizes and what not.

[edit]
i will add however..
the proposed unit could be viewed as a compromise between cm & inch since it's bringing in some of both.. but i'd like to point out that there's definitely no compromising going on here.
yes, similar aspects are being brought in from both but.. the aspects being brought in are the most desirable ones and, not only that, these are being improved upon in both cases.. this unit is both better than the inch and better than the cm and there would be very little to argue about regarding this unit vs cm or inch.
the proposed unit with base12 divisions is much more clearly a superior (and dare i say modern) unit than the ones in either metric or imperial.