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Why the heck does America still use outdated measurement and date units?
- Thread starter garirry
- Start date
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I think your metaphors are mixed. This is like that one kid that doesn't care that all the other kids are wearing Adidas tennis shoes, and he is wearing Nikes. He may win some races and lose some, but there are those that insist that he loses because of his shoes, and when he wins, well... no he didn't. He must have cheated.
Your metaphor has the group failing because the kid didn't contribute. Is the rest of the world really that reliant on the US abandoning its measurement system to improve? I don't think so. The US exports many things in metric quantities, and does so quite well.
Again, this argument that the US is "the stubborn kid in the group" doesn't stand up to reality. 4.4% of the world population making 24% of the world GDP could hardly put the US as the one not wanting to participate. It's just that when we do stuff here, we'd rather not touch Metric with a 3.048 meter pole.
On your original premise, that the US should measure in Metric to make you happy, that really does sound like the "Ugly American" pejorative that was used to describe those people from my country that expected the world to speak English because they were visiting. We're not having problems with our measurement system. You are.
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Indeed. He killed my father.
Think you got the wrong guy, Jeffy. That man in the picture only had 6 fingers on one hand.
Here's the best date format that I know, and I think the rest of the world will love it:Yeah well the rest of the world is still waiting for you to adopt metric, celsius, and a semi-decent date format so we could communicate like normal human beings.My grandparents adopted Skype faster than you people could adopt new standards.
YYYY_MM_DD
It puts itself in order without fail, like, which comes first, 2016_01_01, 2015_03_02 or 2015_02_03?
People in the US have been using 2/3/15 and those in Europe (possibly elsewhere... more like probably) 3/2/15, and this system would clear all of that up. The rules for associating month, day, and year are built in, and it makes more sense than anything else out there. Plus, you don't have to learn any new letters, numbering systems (by the way, thank Julius and Augustus Ceasar for this base 12 system of the months... December should have been where October is, and the current December would be Duodecember), and it'd take about a week to convert over.
Benefits:
Self sorting
No question on where the month is
Easy to learn
Sensible
Finding time between dates is easier (not easy, but easier)
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Good point... We need to go to a base 11 system.
When I have to choose a format, I always use that one because it is not ambiguous and it sorts files.
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From the movies, I understood it was always pejorative. I did not know the etymology until she explained it.
What??
She was born in Venezuela, which is located in America.
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this is where the fallacy lies.
Venezuela is most certainly not in America.
it's in South America
America is definitely not a stretch of land going from the southern tip of Chile to the arctic circle regions of Canada.
realizing that will be step1 for you to get off this kick you're on.
likewise, we have North Carolina & South Carolina.. or North Dakota & South Dakota.. but there is no place 'Carolina' or 'Dakota'..
just like there is no place 'America' which is comprised of North & South America.
There is such thing as 'The Carolinas' or 'The Dakotas' if you wish to reference both states together just like there is such place as "The Americas" if you wish to reference these two continents at once. if someone says 'the Americas', you know they're talking about everywhere within N & S America.. but there is no actual place "America"
it's unfortunate (for people hung up on this) that the country I live in is called "United States of America"..
i'm actually a "United States of American".. of which, the shortened version is 'American' and (one of) the shortened versions of the country is "America"
the use of the word "America" is because of that long title of my country..
it's most definitely NOT because I'm from The Americas but I'm such a pig-headed American that I'll just claim the name to refer to only myself and neighbor because everybody else on these two continents are meaningless and insignificant. however, this is what it seems you are trying to imply. well, you're wrong.. srry
"America" is exactly one place and "Americans" are exactly one group of people.. these are not terms we've stolen from others to claim as our own usage.
they did not exist prior to the creation of "United States of America".. America/Americans is doing one thing-- referencing the name of our country.
Venezuela is in South America. I can say Venezuelan to reference the exact country or, if I want to talk about all the people in South America, I will say South American.. this is completely common and proper. homegirl in this thread is South American, not (and never was) 'American'..
someone from Mexico or Canada or the U.S or Panama etc is North American.. they are not American. only the people from the U.S are American.
and they're 'American' because of our country name.. not our continent's name.
again, it's unfortunate (for you) that my country shares a word in its name that my continent also has in its name. (and yet another continent uses in its name)
but I can assure you it's only as confusing as you make it out to be. and it's only as dramatic as you want it to be. and obviously, you'd rather just be dramatic about it and say thing like Americans stole that name from Venezuelans. Americans suck
say 'yellow' using the pronunciation rules of Spanish. what does it sound like?
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percentage, as a concept, isn't tied to a base..
in decimal, 25,50,75 % (or 1/4, 1/2, 3/4 of 100)..
are the numbers 25,50,75,100
in base 12, the numbers which share a similar relation to the base are 30,60,90,100
another one that would be weird to get used to is .5 is no longer a 'special(?)' looking decimal.
that's instead .6 in base twelve.
(just like half a foot is 6 inches)
3", 6", 9", 1'
.3, .6, .9, 1
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This is where the fallacy lies.
South America is one part of America.
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'jeλow
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you're just making stuff up, believing the stuff you make up, then telling everyone else they're wrong.
sounds sort of fun.. I guess :/
hahaha.
yeah, excellent point:
or maybe you're talking about america on some other planet besides earth? because that's not earth right there.
look, i get it..
"That's my story and I'm sticking to it!"
you've said something.. then said some more things.. and now you're at a point where there's no turning back.. and are referencing an image from 1500s claiming "see. i'm right!.. Columbians are Americans!"
keep on keepin on i guess.. i don't think anybody here or any amount of reading/searching the web for proper usage of 'America' or 'American' is going to sway you at this point..
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no.. say it and listen to it.. not say it then write it in some different form.
better yet, listen to Tony Montana say it"
(nsfw.. language/content/etc)
The map I showed you is the first use of the word "America". It is known as the Birth Certificate of America.
The word was later misappropriated by whoever English language speaker.
Your country is called United States of America (like IN America).
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I don't know that slang word. I'm not objecting to it. Just to the fact that it is not how "yellow" is phonetically read in Spanish.
It seems indeed to be derived from it, like "gringo", for most pronunciations.
The word was later misappropriated by whoever English language speaker.
Your country is called United States of America (like IN America).
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I don't know that slang word. I'm not objecting to it. Just to the fact that it is not how "yellow" is phonetically read in Spanish.
It seems indeed to be derived from it, like "gringo", for most pronunciations.
europeans stole the entire two continents from millions of people who lived there for thousands of years.
any original usage of the word 'America' is very recent and it was certainly imposed upon established societies by the people of your country and your neighboring countries.
if you want to get all (whatever it is you're acting) and start pointing fingers, start pointing fingers in the mirror because your culture is the one responsible.. not American culture.. yes, we're often arrogant as a nation or whatever but this is a horrible example of such.. citizens of the u.s.a. are named Americans because you named us that.. we didn't steal jack squat as far as this name is concerned..
and like i said before.. while you're so amped up on chastising americans for stealing the word American, you're simply distracting yourself from a much more real and urgent occurrence.. that being, America is stealing your country.. right now. this very second.. we're not taking the name of your country, we're taking your actual country.
pay attention to that instead.
....
how about native americans:
did americans do that? or europeans?
it's Americans that are now fixing that mistake.
dude, brazilians (for example) do not call themselves americans.
Peruvians do not call themselves americans.
America, the name, is entirely european (i mean, it's the name of some european guy)..
Native origins? the native name of this place is America?
America, the name, did not come about until very recently.
I'm denying someone in Latin America their birth name & origins since i refer to myself as American?
what are you talking about?
this is getting nutz
Nobody is denying that you're American.
America is an integration concept. Everybody in Latin America knows from Cape Horn to Bering Strait they are Americanos.
People have multiple identities, A Brazilian is also South American, Latin American, and American.
Most people think that Mexico is in Central America, so they are happy when they are correctly identified as North Americans.
Spanish-speaking people will also call US citizens "North Americans" imprecisely.
The problem here is that you need to invent a nice word for just for yourselves in English, like it exists in Spanish even if theoretically it could apply also to Mexicans and Brazilians, but they already have better names for themselves.
that's coffee.. it's european..
i'd recommend the iced variety.. more american i think.
no, this is not the problem here.
the problem here is that there are a bunch of euros in this thread telling americans what we should do.. what we should call ourselves.. how we should measure things.. and on and on and on..
reality is, we have approx ZERO problem calling ourselves americans or saying something weighs a quarter pound.
you have the problem. it for whatever reason gets your panties in a wad to see a length written as 13' 4 3/16"..
how about this.. take your opinions on this silly crap and feed it to your asp.. how's that for american?
we're not going to call ourselves something different to please you.. IT IS NOT GOING TO HAPPEN.
the solution is for you to get on board with recognizing Americans are from America and they are both referencing United States of America.. the country.
if you don't want to do that then fine.. i don't really care though it may seem like i do since i keep talking about it here.
but definitely recognize you're most certainly wasting your time with the campaign for present day americans to rename themselves and/or their country.. 100% complete wasting your time.
Yes, indeed, that is the problem here. In fact, I have confronted the OP about it more than once(not in public) and he seems to simply want to put his fingers in his ears and just continue saying that we're wrong and he doesn't want to talk about it.
I think it's about time for this thread to go to the wasteland.
Look, I did not start the "American" discussion. I am saying that for Latin Americans it's a concept of brotherhood, and you want to perpetuate division by calling America "the Americas" always.
Latin American politicians will sometimes mention "Latin American Brotherhood" or "American Brotherhood" depending on who is included.
Latin American politicians will sometimes mention "Latin American Brotherhood" or "American Brotherhood" depending on who is included.
Didn't this rather simple thing get settled already pages ago? https://forums.macrumors.com/thread...-and-date-units.1971601/page-12#post-22935657
Geez guys. Just take your junk out we'll measure to see who wins. The only question is if we measure inches or centimeters.
Geez guys. Just take your junk out we'll measure to see who wins. The only question is if we measure inches or centimeters.
that could get confusing.. there's a problem within the u.s with our measuring system and whether or not you're male or female.
american women have been taught this length :
is equal to 8 inches..
so measuring junk in imperial is out of the question if we're looking for any sort of accuracy.
I'm hoping that the OP will go off on a tirade about tomorrow being American Memorial Day when it's supposed to be in November (our Veterans Day) like the rest of the world.
I really think this is a control thing. You must do things this way, or I shall call you "stupid!"
There it is, folks.
I really think this is a control thing. You must do things this way, or I shall call you "stupid!"
There it is, folks.
hmm.. when i said people should be educated instead of re-educated, i wasn't talking about teaching metric, or imperial, or decimal..
i meant people should be educated about numbers because it's pretty clear that not many people know what they are.. for one, numbers are entirely a man-made construct.. the decimal system is not natural and the number ten is most certainly not magical.. up until a few days ago, you yourself thought the number ten was magic (and i'm under the assumption you pretty much feel the same way about it now as then)
kids should be taught what numbers actually are and how they work instead of rote memorizing times tables and whatnot.. current adults should also be taught this but i have low faith in that happening since it pretty much requires them to teach it to themselves.. and we don't really have much critical thinking skills as adults since we were generally just taught through memorization.. ("don't think about it.. just do what i say" type of bs).. maybe you could do a little freshening up on the topic? i assure you it's not very difficult and maybe even a little bit fun.
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0-9 would definitely still be used.. there's no reason for them to go away.. 10,11,&12 would go away.
if someone says 50, how would you know.. ? because they said fifty..
fifty quite literally means 'five ten'.. fifty (and twenty,thirty,etc) are not unique words.. they are constructed using the numbers 1-9 in combination with the base (10) .. twenty is 'two ten'.. thirty is 'three ten'.. etc..
but come on.. this is obvious, right?
in base 12, there is no usage of the word 'fifty' because there's no number called ten.
50 in base twelve is said 'five doh'.. five units of the base, 12, which is spelled/pronounced 'doh'.. the decimal equivalent is 60. (as in, 5x12=60)
in written form, there would probably need to be an indicator during the transfer period.. possibly a unique character but there's already a mark in use that does exactly this.. it notifies the reader that the number is in base12.. it's the single quote mark and used to signify a foot.. if i write 3' 7.. the (') tells you that you're in base twelve.. this number is not 37.. instead, it's 43 (in decimal).. 3' 7 is equal to 43 inches.
or- 37 in duodecimal is equal to 43 in decimal.
so, during the switchover, a person could write 50' (or whatever) to signify they're in base twelve.. the super cool thing about a base twelve switch would mean that i'd no longer need to annotate my drawings with ' and " ... 5'-3" would now simply be written as 53 while using a measuring system styled after metric
...
1.5m vs 1.8m
?
again, those are decimal system words.. they are unique to only decimal. Meter means 100cm .. there is no "one hundred" in base 12.. '100' as we know it today is a more generic '84' in base12..
the number 100 in base12 is equal to 144 in decimal.. it's called a gros (like the word gross.. i.e. 12 dozen).. pronounced 'gro' (silent s)
i think, at least up to now, you're missing the part about the metric system would have to change if the standard numbering base changed..
'milli' denotes one-thousandth.. there is no 'one thousand' in base 12.. (there's certainly a 1000 and it's just as meaningful as 1000 in decimal or, it's derived in the exact same way.. it just represents a different amount though.. just like in base10, it's base*base*base.. 10 x 10 x 10... in base12, it's equivalent to 12*12*12.. or 1728.. like- 1 cubic foot is 1728 cubic inches.. it's better math than metric but metric has cleaner numbers to write this in since the unit system was tailored to decimal.. if our numbering system matched our unit system, it would be 1000 cubic inches instead of 1728.. or 1cf = 1000ci... exactly the same as the way 1L = 1000ml)
the metric system is a decimal system.. it was completely built around the decimal system.. if there's no decimal system, there's no metric system. you see?
there could (and should.. and would) be a new system that functions exactly like metric except in base12.
it would allow one to do things like 10mm ÷ 3 = 4mm instead of 10mm ÷ 3 = 3.33333333333_mm
the numbers would work the same exact way as some of the imperial system numbers do except we'd no longer have to use symbols such as ' and " to signify we're in base12.. there's no more 6'-7" ..it would just be 67
you see? just like metric works except the numbers work better like in imperial.
the only reason imperial users write things such as 2' - 9 7/8 is because we're using base12 logic within the constraints of a base10 system.. we have to specifically write the above number to say 2 x 12.. plus 9.. plus 7/8... which equals 33.875 inches..
and the only reason we have to write things like that is because of 10 & 11 not being written with single characters and instead have been composited using multiple numbers which have come before them.
if i have the length 5' 10, i must write it as such or else it would say 510.. and there is another number written 510 as well.. and combinations which look the same too like 5100 etc.
if ten were a single character such as the proposed ᘔ, writing 5' ᘔ" is no longer necessary.. it's then just 5ᘔ..and it's the only number that exists that looks like this. 510 in base twelve means something else (732).. 5ᘔ0 means something else.. etc.
the numbering system should change to match what we're doing with the unit divisions in imperial.. not the other way around.
this is where the french screwed up.. they were faced with this decision and chose the wrong one.. if they chose the other way, i'm sorry but every single thing i've said on this exact matter, you'd be in complete agreement with it.. i'd bet my life on that statement.
(though i'm also willing to bet that you still wouldn't really understand why you're in agreement with it.. other than something like "all the other people within a thousand miles of me do this so i think it's the best!')
it's actually written 3.18 in base12..
however, nothing about pi changes.. it simply appears differently when shown in different bases.. maybe don't learn that pi is 3.18... learn what it really is and why it is what it is.. then the written numbers will be completely ingrained since you've learned it in a more proper manner.. you wouldn't ever have to learn 'pi is now such&such'.
but i get it, we're taught that the only way to learn is through rote memorization so in that case, yes.. you'd have to learn that pi is now 3.18.. is that too much to ask?
new words, in case you haven't noticed, are generally now the same regardless of particular languages.
'blog' for example.. can you translate that to german for me? how about spanish? thx.. and it's most certainly a word used in both german and spanish.. a new word will now generally be the same for everybody as the original language it was made in.. (blog being created in english.. reasoning of 'web log'.. so it makes some sense where the word originated in the original language but that's not of particular importance).
pretty much all new words in biology and other sciences are the same worldwide..
there's no reason why 3 new words for numbers would need to be specifically given a different spelling etc for every language.
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and really.. do you think i'm making these words up? these are already words and symbols i'm using.. there are different proposals as to what the official names/symbols should be but i'm using the ones that are common.
other proposals would have 10 and 11 being replaced with A and B..
like, our numbers would be 0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,A,B
sounds crazy, huh? or is it.
have you ever seen this numbering scheme:
0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,A,B,C,D,E,F
?
you should have.. that's the hexadecimal system being used by that thing you're staring at right now..
(and back to the notation thing, a number is often written 14h to signify it's in base16)
what planet would you be living on if the number 10110 was used to represent the number you know as 22?
this one.
that's from the binary system.. base2.. again, being used by that thing you're staring at right now.
far (gazillions of times more) more daily calculations are made with numbering systems other than decimal than are made with the decimal system..
if you type something like 1.7 * 32 into your computer, it first has to translate that gibberish into something that makes more sense for calculations.. do the calculation.. then, retranslate it back to decimal so it can communicate to you and your ten fingers.
the decimal system is only used by humans.. and the ONLY reason it's used by humans is because we have 10 fingers.
i get it that you think i'm exaggerating or something when i say that but it's plain and simple truth.
your beloved decimal system is in use for one stupid reason..
if you want to argue the merits of the decimal system, you have exactly one argument to use.. "but we have ten fingers so it's the best choice for humans"
you don't have to do anything.. use decimal and metric to the very day you die.. i certainly don't care about that.
i'm talking bigger picture.. definitely bigger than any particular individual.
improve education.. improve what people are taught about numbers.
if that happens, we'll naturally start using base12 since we'll be a more intelligent population.. no arm-twisting or force feeding required.
no, you'll switch bases.. maybe not exactly you but it's within reason, assuming you're somewhat on the younger side, that computers will make it into our bodies and assist with tasks requiring mathematics.
if & when that happens, you're no longer going to be doing math in base10.. probably base2 or base16.
(see- base12 isn't even best for math.. it's best for humans for math..
the point isn't that base12 is the ultimate universal way to deal with numbers.. the point is that base12 works best with our brains and our lives.. and decimal is worse than any of these bases for any of these applications.. except, of course, counting how many fingers you have)
that's not my only argument.. 1,2,3,4 all work very well with base12.. these are, in order, the most common numbers to be used in our lives.. 5, which works good with decimal, is statistically speaking used far less frequently in practical applications.
further, numbers like 6,8, & 9 also work better and cleaner in base 12 than in base10.. 5, 7 & 11 aren't too sweet in base 12 but they are still better than in base10.
in base10, you have
1 ÷ 3 = .33333333333333_
1 ÷ 6 = .1666666666666_
1 ÷ 7 = .142857142857_
1 ÷ 9 = .111111111111_
1 ÷ 11 = no such thing as 11 in base10.
4 of the numbers in base 10 create repeating decimals.. 3 of which begin repeating instantly.. they're repeating within the tolerance range of many measuring uses.
if i'm drawing/building with a tolerance of .001", i'm dealing with repeating decimals within that range.. accuracy is suffering within my working allowances.. only #7 produces a repeating decimal that's not really affecting me since it doesn't repeat until a much much smaller value.
in base12, there are no occurrences of these immediate repeaters except 11 (which ends up being the same thing as 9 in decimal)
5 becomes the worst number (in this regard) as it produces repeating digits earliest.
1 ÷ 5 = .24972497_
1 ÷ 7 = 0.186ᘔ35186ᘔ35_
1 ÷ Ɛ (11) = .1111111111_
none of my most used numbers create complications.. they all work very clean.. 5 is iffy but repeats once it's outside of my tolerance as does 7.. 11? well, poor 11.. never going to catch a break in either of these two systems.
my use of aliens and/or alternate intelligence in the universe is meant as a different way of saying base10 is not natural.. Ten is not universally pure as you'd like to believe..
it's a concept that a human or small group of humans made up thousands of years ago.. and yeah, back then it was probably better and more useful and possibly clicked better with the minds and technology of that era.. not any more.. so we change, we evolve when things like this happen.. or we should.
here's the thing.. i'm going on and on about these numbers because it's interesting to me, it's fun to me, and it's useful to me and my work.
all of these words aren't trying to convince everyone that we, as a species, must switch to base12 or else we are doomed..
in short, i'm just blabbering about something i find interesting.
what i hope can happen though, as a result of these roundAbout explanations of imperial and how it already has /always had these alternative bases.. is that you can get off your kick and realize what your thread is about.
the sense of entitlement by some here is astounding.
you're on and on about "switching to base12 is unnecessary with no advantages and would be impossible for us to do in this era.. also, you should switch to metric system because it's superior and the system you use is outdated"
correct?
you're telling me to quit using base12.. i use it every single day. no exaggeration.. i use base 16.. every single day.. i use base 10.. every single day.. (and my computer uses base2 and 8 and hex for me every day)
all of these have definite positives depending on your actual use case..
your whole spiel here is telling me to dumb down and adopt a system that forces me to use base10 only.
it's just a horrible idea and you've given no good reasons for me to do that.. not one. where as i can (and feel i have) give you reason after reason after reason as to why it's more beneficial to have more than one way to mathematically approach a given situation/scenario i encounter in everyday life.
you're completely failing to recognize or accept that in imperial, we can, and do (very often- not just in weirdo outside cases) use the decimal system.. when we do that, it's functions e x a c t l y like the metric system.. do you understand this?
there's no reason for me to switch to metric because the system i use currently will give me identical results.. identical numbers to be entered in a calculator.. exact carbon copies of the equations.
however, me switching to metric does mean i no longer have a measuring system where i can use base12 when desired.. or use base16 when desired (which -- by the way.. base16 is the one i use most often.. probably 85% of the time these days.. i now work in a shop where i'm building smaller ,say, furniture sized pieces where as i used to work on larger sites/scales in which i'd opt for base12 most often)
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my main point is this --> heck yeah i'll switch!! count me in.
but i'm definitely not going to switch to your limited metric system just so i can do things the way you were taught.. or so i can say 100cm = 1m ..that is a horrible trade-off for what you're asking me to give up compared to what you're telling me i'll gain.. like worst deal of the century.
if i'm going to take the time and effort and resource to switch, i'm going to switch to something that's better than imperial.. not something that's more limiting.. if i'm switching, i'm going to switch to a measuring system that functions very much like metric, has the unity of metric, except it's in base12 instead of decimal.
this solves so many of the complications associated with the imperial system And it solves so many of the complications associated with the metric system... while adding very very little new or base12unique problems..
the trade off in that proposal is well worth it.. it is a good deal.
what's bugging me most is the freaking attitude "you all do this now because i say so.. you need to add and subtract and write this way because my system is superior and your mathematics&measuring capabilities are outdated.. I refuse to accept any other ideas besides my own as viable alternatives.. etcetcetc..
like -- you're telling me to do all these stupid things , for your pleasure, while you sit there and do absolutely nothing..
you want to see a change in measuring ? ok.. i'm definitely game.. (should be obvious now, right?)..
so LET'S change then.. get on with it already.
..oh? you don't want to lift a damn finger and simply want to sit around telling me what to do.. for no good reason but for a bunch of bad reasons?
hmmm... no thanks
ok?
deal
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