Why's fragmentation so bad?

[VFC]

Nothing is more fragmented than Microsoft and PC hardware. Yet they have about 96% market share vs. Apple's 4%. So the public has been conditioned to accept fragmentation as a byproduct of freedom of choice.

 

[Michael Goff]

to be fair you can still download a good number of apps on old gingerbread devices

Yes, yes you can.

I'm sure if he really looked, he could find some things that he could download on an iPod Touch 2g. Of course... he won't (he'll instead say that just none of them work), but he likely could.

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Nothing is more fragmented than Microsoft and PC hardware. Yet they have about 96% market share vs. Apple's 4%. So the public has been conditioned to accept fragmentation as a byproduct of freedom of choice.

Or they buy cheaper products.

One of the two.

 

[surjavarman]

Wait.

You took an obsolete device and aren't able to download things? SHOCKER.

Why not complain about not being able download WP8 apps on Windows Mobile 6 while you're at it?

Its not an obsolete device. Its still working fine but it was working even better 5 years ago when I was actually able to get apps. Its a fine working device made obsolete by Apple. Why is it obsolete? Because it does not have a retina screen?

Sure there might be some working apps but out of all major apps that I tested literally none of them worked. I am not going to scour 900.000 apps to find ones that do work. Some of these major apps used to work 3 years ago

 

[Technarchy]

Nothing is more fragmented than Microsoft and PC hardware. Yet they have about 96% market share vs. Apple's 4%. So the public has been conditioned to accept fragmentation as a byproduct of freedom of choice.

I've yet to be left behind by a service pack release for any iteration of Windows I have every owned.

Or security updates

Or bug fixes

I have two home brew Windows 8 boxes built on entirely different hardware generations. I powered them both on for the first time in a couple of months and magically they both got the exact same updates without issue.

I bet when Windows 8.1 drops it will be the same

So no, it's not like android. Not even close.

 

[Michael Goff]

Its not an obsolete device. Its still working fine but it was working even better 5 years ago when I was actually able to get apps. Its a fine working device made obsolete by Apple. Why is it obsolete? Because it does not have a retina screen?

Sure there might be some working apps but out of all major apps that I tested literally none of them worked. I am not going to scour 900.000 apps to find ones that do work. Some of these major apps used to work 3 years ago

Definition of obsolete (adj)
Bing Dictionary
ob·so·lete [ òbssə lt ]
not used any more: no longer in use
out-of-date: superseded by something newer, though possibly still in use
undeveloped: describes a part or organ of an animal or plant that is undeveloped or no longer functional

It is obsolete because it is a second gen iPod Touch and was made in 2008. It isn't about the features, it's obsolete because Apple doesn't support devices for five years unless they're Macs (and even then it's barely).

 

[gotluck]

Definition of obsolete (adj)
Bing Dictionary
ob·so·lete [ òbssə lt ]
not used any more: no longer in use
out-of-date: superseded by something newer, though possibly still in use
undeveloped: describes a part or organ of an animal or plant that is undeveloped or no longer functional

It is obsolete because it is a second gen iPod Touch and was made in 2008. It isn't about the features, it's obsolete because Apple doesn't support devices for five years unless they're Macs (and even then it's barely).

All of this wouldn't be a problem if one could install the old version of the apps in question. A strength of Android.

In iOS, have a backup or you are toast.

though ipod 2nd gen is jailbreakable and you could install old versions then.. This won't apply to the 4S or higher, when it gets old. With only one app store and the lockdown, planned obsolescence is much easier.

 

[Klosefabrinio]

Yes, if you don't want to make any money from your phone (Nexus)... a company can give you a cheap phone. As for the phone you showed? Have fun with almost no space (my Lumia 520 has more internal space) and a slow processor. Don't let the term "quad core" fool you into thinking this is a flagship-level device.

I thought you were talking about flagships, but I guess you're going down the budget line with the hopes of making the price difference show up more. It's okay, you're allowed to like Android without needing to hate iOS.

1) it has and SD card slot
2) it's quad-core and runs cortex A7 CPU, how does that make the phone slow?
3) this phone was the company's flagship, and i showed you this device because you were asking for "options", otherwise most of the people would go with the nexus 4.

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There are no complaints from me. I think Apple go far beyond expectations in terms of supporting older devices. When you consider a 3 year old iPhone 4 is included in the iOS 7 update, that bodes rather well. Sure the iP4 won't get every single feature, but lets be realistic as to why that is. When I was with HTC I had an update 6 months after it was originally launched and it ground my phone almost to a halt. That particular model was not even 12 months old at the time and I had a hell of a game trying to revert it to a previous release.

I've had more faith in iOS releases as they generally work on the phones they are aimed at. I do feel with Android its a chase concerning hardware to keep up. This works for some and not for others. I intend to keep my phones for two years and don't expect to be forced to upgrade because of software that hasn't been tested thoroughly for my particular device. That was my biggest complaint concerning Android, but on the whole I enjoyed it while I was on it.

that's why i stay with samsung, i've never faced a problem like this in samsung phones.

 

[Michael Goff]

All of this wouldn't be a problem if one could install the old version of the apps in question. A strength of Android.

In iOS, have a backup or you are toast.

though ipod 2nd gen is jailbreakable and you could install old versions then.. This won't apply to the 4S or higher, when it gets old. With only one app store and the lockdown, planned obsolescence is much easier.

Yep, Android was made better to deal with obsolete hardware.

1) it has and SD card slot
2) it's quad-core and runs cortex A7 CPU, how does that make the phone slow?
3) this phone was the company's flagship, and i showed you this device because you were asking for "options", otherwise most of the people would go with the nexus 4.

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that's why i stay with samsung, i've never faced a problem like this in samsung phones.

Not all quad core processors are equal. Also, my Lumia 520 has a micro SD card slot.

This is their flagship, but it isn't a flagship in terms of an Android device.

 

[Klosefabrinio]

I've never seen an article (or forum post here) that says fragmentation is exclusive to Android. More prevalent in Android, yes. Exclusive to Android, no.

Interestingly, it's not uncommon to see posts from Android owners on here complaining about compatibility issues when their 18-month old Android device doesn't get an upgrade to the next Android OS. Even had someone last week mention how they couldn't download some current games on their GS4.

Your example is with an iOS device that is twenty days away from having been launched 1/20 century ago.

i can also exaggerate, the thing is, it's less than 5yrs old and it's not running ANY of the 1Million apps in the app store

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Yep, Android was made better to deal with obsolete hardware.



Not all quad core processors are equal. Also, my Lumia 520 has a micro SD card slot.

This is their flagship, but it isn't a flagship in terms of an Android device.

it's not a flagship (in your view), but the nexus 4 has almost same specs. the funny thing is that even this phone has better specs than the iphone 5

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to be fair you can still download a good number of apps on old gingerbread devices

that's what i was trying to tell him, but....

 

[Michael Goff]

i can also exaggerate, the thing is, it's less than 5yrs old and it's not running ANY of the 1Million apps in the app store

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it's not a flagship (in your view), but the nexus 4 has almost same specs. the funny thing is that even this phone has better specs than the iphone 5

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that's what i was trying to tell him, but....

You're not understanding a basic thing. Not all quad core processors are the same. As for a comparison with the iPhone, you can't because of the differences in OS.

 

[Klosefabrinio]

Nothing is more fragmented than Microsoft and PC hardware. Yet they have about 96% market share vs. Apple's 4%. So the public has been conditioned to accept fragmentation as a byproduct of freedom of choice.

that's because dozens of companies are making windows PCs (of different prices and specs) but apple doesn't have dozens of companies making Macs.

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I have a Nexus 7 FHD and I have seen a couple of times where the Google Play store won't allow me to download an app because it is "Incompatible with my Device". However, this is more of the exception than the norm.

The main issue is the varying screen sizes. Also, on higher end 3D games, the quality of the GPU. Also the hardware features differ from phone to phone (ex one phone may have a GPS while another may not).

Most Android App scale well to different screen sizes. The API was designed with that in mind. However, it seems a lot of developers do not take the time to actually change their layout for larger screens. This looks downright awkward on a Nexus 10. For me it is a little annoying on the 7, but not a deal-breaker like it was on the 10.

However, Google is actively trying to combat fragmentation and make the platform more appealing to mobile developers. They released a new IDE called "Android Studio". You can read more about it here and here. Of course, like any other endeavor, it requires cooperation by the development community. Also, it has been rumored that Key Lime Pie will help to combat fragmentation, by making the OS more compatible to run on older device. However, these are just rumors.

there aren't much apps (truly built for tablets), that's why it was a problem for you, most apps are designed keeping smartphones in mind.

but this is changing, developers are busy making apps (truly made for tablets), and as you said key lime pie will also help combat fragmentation.

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You're not understanding a basic thing. Not all quad core processors are the same. As for a comparison with the iPhone, you can't because of the differences in OS.

i agree, not all quad-core proessors are same, but, a quad-core chip IS better than a single core(iphone) chip.

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All of this wouldn't be a problem if one could install the old version of the apps in question. A strength of Android.

In iOS, have a backup or you are toast.

though ipod 2nd gen is jailbreakable and you could install old versions then.. This won't apply to the 4S or higher, when it gets old. With only one app store and the lockdown, planned obsolescence is much easier.

agreed, the people who dont JB their idevice cant install apps, whereas android users (even with the gingerbread) can.

 

[Michael Goff]

that's because dozens of companies are making windows PCs (of different prices and specs) but apple doesn't have dozens of companies making Macs.

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there aren't much apps (truly built for tablets), that's why it was a problem for you, most apps are designed keeping smartphones in mind.

but this is changing, developers are busy making apps (truly made for tablets), and as you said key lime pie will also help combat fragmentation.

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i agree, not all quad-core proessors are same, but, a quad-core chip IS better than a single core chip.

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agreed, the people who dont JB their idevice cant install apps, whereas android users (even with the gingerbread) can.

And yet my single core Lumia 900 was more responsive than a quad core Nexus 7. My Lumia 520 is also more responsive than my dual core Galaxy Nexus. So obviously cores doesn't equate to awesome.

 

[Klosefabrinio]

And yet my single core Lumia 900 was more responsive than a quad core Nexus 7. My Lumia 520 is also more responsive than my dual core Galaxy Nexus. So obviously cores doesn't equate to awesome.

lumia 900 vs nexus 7? yeah right! go compare your lumia to a computer.

lumia 520 vs G nexus? you're comparing a device which runs a present-time processor (and runs a much lighter OS)(btw, 520 is dual core) to a device which runs a processor which is 2 years old.

 

[Hawkeye16]

i can also exaggerate, the thing is, it's less than 5yrs old and it's not running ANY of the 1Million apps in the app store

Actually what he did was anchoring bias, not exaggerating. What YOU did was exaggerating. the quote was

"Sure there might be some working apps but out of all major apps that I tested literally none of them worked. I am not going to scour 900.000 apps to find ones that do work."

So they tested merely a small fraction of the less than 1 Million apps. You exaggerate it to "ANY of the 1 Million apps".

 

[Michael Goff]

lumia 900 vs nexus 7? yeah right! go compare your lumia to a computer.

lumia 520 vs G nexus? you're comparing a device which runs a present-time processor (and runs a much lighter OS)(btw, 520 is dual core) to a device which runs a processor which is 2 years old.

My Lumia ran better than my Nexus... the 900 as well. Also, it was still running Android. Version 4.0 is the same version that runes on phones. It is the same OS and should be treated as such. My mistake on the 520, you caught me there.

Dual core iPhone vs quad core Android phone, there won't be much difference. Single core iPhone beat out dual core Android phones, though.

Because unless the software is coded to take advantage of the hardware, you need more to do the same things.

 

[Klosefabrinio]

Actually what he did was anchoring bias, not exaggerating. What YOU did was exaggerating. the quote was

"Sure there might be some working apps but out of all major apps that I tested literally none of them worked. I am not going to scour 900.000 apps to find ones that do work."

So they tested merely a small fraction of the less than 1 Million apps. You exaggerate it to "ANY of the 1 Million apps".

OK, so why dont you sit down and try all the apps, even those apps which no one cares about

he also said: Some of these major apps used to work 3 years ago

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My Lumia ran better than my Nexus... the 900 as well. Also, it was still running Android. Version 4.0 is the same version that runes on phones. It is the same OS and should be treated as such. My mistake on the 520, you caught me there.

Dual core iPhone vs quad core Android phone, there won't be much difference. Single core iPhone beat out dual core Android phones, though.

Because unless the software is coded to take advantage of the hardware, you need more to do the same things.

when did APPLE CONFIRM that iphone 5 is dual-core?

 

[aristobrat]

and as you said key lime pie will also help combat fragmentation.

IMO, Key Lime Pie is a good first first step in helping combat fragmentation.

Say Google does what Apple has been doing, and makes the next Android version so it runs on hardware up to three years old...

So Google does that, but then it's up to each phone manufacturer to take that next Android update and repackage/test it for all of their older devices.

Let's take a look at a relatively decent Android phone manufacturer (LG) and see how many phones that they've put out over the last three years.

What are the chances that LG is going to actually spend the time and resources to make an Android OS update available for all of the devices below?

2012

LG Prada 3.0
LG Nitro HD
LG Optimus L3
LG Optimus L5
LG Optimus L7
LG Optimus L9
LG Optimus Vu
LG Optimus 4X HD
LG Optimus G
Google Nexus 4

2011

T-Mobile G2x
LG Optimus One#LG Optimus V, VM670 Optimus V
LG Optimus ME P350
LG Optimus Black, P970
LG Optimus 2X
LG Optimus 3D

2010

LG GT540, GT540 Optimus, GT540 Swift
KH5200 Andro-1
LG Optimus S, LS670
LG LU2300, Optimus Q
LG Optimus One# LG Optimus T, P509 Optimus T
VS740 (US740), LG Ally, Aloha
LG KU9500, Optimus Z

My guess is that LG simply won't.

Unless Google can "force" phone manufacturers to make Android available for the last three years worth of devices, I don't think that we'll ever see Android's OS distribution (fragmentation) pie look like iOS's.

And I'm not saying that's a bad thing. The only reason that 94% of iOS customers are running iOS 6 is because Apple made iOS 6 available on virtually every iOS device that's three-years-old or younger. And the only way Apple could do that was having a comparatively very limited amount of devices to have to deal with.

So with Android, you have way more hardware choices. Way more. But with that comes hardware manufacturers that simply won't pass Android updates down to the consumer. Plusses and minuses I guess.

 

[Klosefabrinio]

IMO, Key Lime Pie is a good first first step in helping combat fragmentation.

Say Google does what Apple has been doing, and makes the next Android version so it runs on hardware up to three years old...

So Google does that, but then it's up to each phone manufacturer to take that next Android update and repackage/test it for all of their older devices.

Let's take a look at a relatively decent Android phone manufacturer (LG) and see how many phones that they've put out over the last three years.

What are the chances that LG is going to actually spend the time and resources to make an Android OS update available for all of the devices below?

2012

LG Prada 3.0
LG Nitro HD
LG Optimus L3
LG Optimus L5
LG Optimus L7
LG Optimus L9
LG Optimus Vu
LG Optimus 4X HD
LG Optimus G
Google Nexus 4

2011

T-Mobile G2x
LG Optimus One#LG Optimus V, VM670 Optimus V
LG Optimus ME P350
LG Optimus Black, P970
LG Optimus 2X
LG Optimus 3D

2010

LG GT540, GT540 Optimus, GT540 Swift
KH5200 Andro-1
LG Optimus S, LS670
LG LU2300, Optimus Q
LG Optimus One# LG Optimus T, P509 Optimus T
VS740 (US740), LG Ally, Aloha
LG KU9500, Optimus Z

My guess is that LG simply won't.

Unless Google can "force" phone manufacturers to make Android available for the last three years worth of devices, I don't think that we'll ever see Android's OS distribution (fragmentation) pie look like iOS's.

And I'm not saying that's a bad thing. The only reason that 94% of iOS customers are running iOS 6 is because Apple made iOS 6 available on virtually every iOS device that's three-years-old or younger. And the only way Apple could do that was having a comparatively very limited amount of devices to have to deal with.

So with Android, you have way more hardware choices. Way more. But with that comes hardware manufacturers that simply won't pass Android updates down to the consumer. Plusses and minuses I guess.

yes, it will be a havoc for the developers, maybe google will "force" the manufacturers or maybe they will provide them keyLP way before the launch so that the manufacturers have enough time to make the update for each of their phone or maybe they will hire more developers. but, what are we arguing about? it's just a rumor, and IF this rumor comes true then google will also tell us how it managed to provide so many updates, right?

 

[aristobrat]

IF this rumor comes true then google will also tell us how it managed to provide so many updates, right?

It'll be interesting to see!

 

[Klosefabrinio]

It'll be interesting to see!

O yes it will be!

 

[Klosefabrinio]

You took an skeuomorphic expression and twisted it into meaning that I was giving a factual prediction ?

We better watch out when using more idioms on this forum folks...

Just to clear it up...

"hell doesn't really freeze over"
"there really isn't a month of sundays"
"no such thing as a blue moon - even once"........ /s

a blue moon recently took place....
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/08/21/blue-moon-night-sky/2679903/

 

[The Robot Cow]

This discussion can last forever so the reason why Apple has very little fragmentation is that there are only a handful of iPhones and since Apple has 100% control of the device and they do the software in-house its much easier for them to bring the newer version of iOS to older phones. For Android they need the source code and all the necessary files to get it to work with the hardware they've chosen. The reason why android is so fragmented is because of the large variety of hardware and the support that the manufactures put behind them and a huge number of android devices out there. It gets difficult to put time effort and resources behind each device.

 

[Klosefabrinio]

Actually what he did was anchoring bias, not exaggerating. What YOU did was exaggerating. the quote was

"Sure there might be some working apps but out of all major apps that I tested literally none of them worked. I am not going to scour 900.000 apps to find ones that do work."

So they tested merely a small fraction of the less than 1 Million apps. You exaggerate it to "ANY of the 1 Million apps".

http://thenextweb.com/apple/2012/11/19/apples-app-store-reaches-1-million-approved-app-submissions/
http://www.wired.com/gadgetlab/2012/11/report-1-million-apps/


and... that report came out about a year ago

 

[MRU]

a blue moon recently took place....
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/08/21/blue-moon-night-sky/2679903/

Lol. I can't wait for the flying pig next

 

[Michael Goff]

http://thenextweb.com/apple/2012/11/19/apples-app-store-reaches-1-million-approved-app-submissions/
http://www.wired.com/gadgetlab/2012/11/report-1-million-apps/


and... that report came out about a year ago

I fail to see how those links prove you didn't exaggerate by saying "none of them work".