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1, in 50000 vs. 1,1000000
I get some of the appeal for Face ID, but I have never understood the security claim.

It isn't like Touch ID in unsecure, it just may not be as secure.

I could get a vault door for my master bath, but is it really needed when a simple privacy lock does what I need it to do?

Sure, the vault door would be so much more secure, but is the extra security really needed?


Face ID is superior in every way.
Unless you use sunglasses.

I know, you can change some settings to get Face ID to work with sunglasses, but then you give up some of that precious security.

Apple invested a lot of time and money in developing face ID. It doesn’t seem like they would ditch it three to four years after introducing it

I think there are a few recent examples:
Touch ID
Back to my Mac
iTunes Radio
iTunes - not sure if this would count
Mobile Me
3D Touch
Air Power - never officially launched, but it was announced way before they actually killed it
Ping
AirPort
2013 Mac Pro

I am sure I am missing some
 
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Seasoned industry watchers are saying that apple will include an in display fingerprint sensor in 2024 or 2025, ok. .

Did they also predict Face ID back in 2013 or 2012?
Or Touch ID back in 2008 or 2007? Nope. Wouldn’t listen to anyone that claims they know what apple will do in 4 to 5 years.

Apple went all in with Face ID, they even said as much on multiple occasions, Touch ID isn’t coming back, neither is the headphone jack, floppy disks or tail fins on cars.

Maybe when Samsung finally copies Face ID next year or the year after these rumors can be put to rest. Pixel 4 is rumored to be ditching fingerprint sensors for a Face ID clone this year. So the industry is moving forward.

These are valid points. I also want to add that Tim Cook had mentioned at least twice that Face ID is their future, I think everyone wants to believe that Face ID is primarily about the iPhone, but it just now expanded the iPad within the last year. And I’m sure the Mac will eventually see it as well. What we don’t understand on a tech site like this, (or at least take in consideration), is the amount of R&D Apple invested into Face ID/3-D facial mapping. This biometric technology isn’t made to be ‘dumped’ just because Apple might be working on a fingerprint sensor. Analysts projections in some cases are purely ‘mudslinging’, but what we know is what we see in front of us, and that’s Face ID _is_ here to stay. Nothing indicates otherwise.
 
These are valid points. I also want to add that Tim Cook had mentioned at least twice that Face ID is their future, I think everyone wants to believe that Face ID is primarily about the iPhone, but it just now expanded the iPad within the last year. And I’m sure the Mac will eventually see it as well.

Thank you.
You are correct the Mac will be getting Face ID either end of this year or next year at the latest.

The bottleneck with the Mac is lack of a proper npu. Face ID requires a lot of horsepower to operate and the npu handles most of it.

Maybe apples t3 chip will take care of that or apple will introduce something else.


What we don’t understand on a tech site like this, (or at least take in consideration), is the amount of R&D Apple invested into Face ID/3-D facial mapping. This biometric technology isn’t made to be ‘dumped’ just because Apple might be working on a fingerprint sensor. Analysts projections in some cases are purely ‘mudslinging’, but what we know is what we see in front of us, and that’s Face ID _is_ here to stay. Nothing indicates otherwise.

Great points as well.

Apple has been working on Face ID since 2013, they also own the technology out right and its currently unmatched by any competitor in the space.
 
Guys like David Hsieh don't have a vested interest in any vendor. IHS Markit is vendor agnostic, they're reporting on the market and forecasting 2-3 years ahead.

For Face ID, there are obvious cost disadvantages. It takes up physical space and reduces space available for rear lenses, including future rear ToF sensor and VCSEL. From a usability factor, it's on par with Touch ID. There are issues with camera angle and it has issues with illumination in bright backgrounds.

Fingerprint offers continuous authentication. Every time you touch, you're authenticating. You can't do that without using large amounts of power with Face ID. Fingerprint is a thinner solution compared to Face ID/VCSEL. There are obvious cost advantages.

It's similar to 3D Touch story. It's nice to have, but by removing it, Apple gets a thinner package and a stronger display at a much lower cost. Apple can redirect materials cost to the rear lenses.

I wasn't saying the analysts have a vested interest in one company or another. Their job is to analyze and report on the prospects of the companies in an industry. If they see a particular company seems to have an advantage or disadvantage, I trust they'll be honest in their analysis.

Still, people's enthusiasm for a promising technology can turn out to be misplaced. Consider the (extreme) example of GT Advanced Technologies. That one took analysts, investors, and Apple down the rabbit hole. Claims for a promising new technology are only claims until the goods can be delivered.

There are always competing demands on space in a device. Perhaps it's necessary to eliminate one component in favor of another, perhaps not. Eliminating the depth sensor would save a bit of space, but the notch also holds the receiver (speaker), front camera, and proximity sensor - all of which would have to remain in one form or another.

Face ID may have been the justification for the notch, but it's not the sole reason the notch is there. They wanted to go to a corner-to-corner/no bezels display. Unless/until all those items can be invisibly hidden behind the display, either a bezel or a notch is necessary, or your "edge-to-edge" display has small gaps or areas of poorer performance.

As to which is more power-hungry - validating ID each time a touch-screen is touched (which is near-constant, of course), or when it's being looked at (also near-constant)... The energy impact is not that easy to judge one way or the other. That devil is deeply embedded in the details. Apple claims the energy impact of Face ID is small. Would the addition of fingerprint ID to a display have zero impact on energy utilization? Maybe yes, maybe no. If tomorrow's fingerprint-scanning display used no more energy than today's non-scanning displays, I'd still ask whether other energy savings had been made in the display module to offset the energy consumed by scanning. If so, there's still an energy cost.

The 3D Touch story is a useful example. I'd argue that most users were not making effective use of 3D Touch, and for some, it was actually delivering unexpected/undesired results. It may be a feature that doesn't deliver on its potential and cost and if so, bye bye! I agree, any and all features/components should be subject to periodic analysis of that sort, including Face ID. The only thing that may separate us is whether we think Face ID would fail the test.

I happen to be a fan of Face ID, so I don't think it'd come up a loser. Its sensor array delivers a variety of features that go beyond ID verification, while a fingerprint scanner can do just that one thing. I'm looking forward to Face ID on Mac. The notion that my Mac can log in or wake from sleep at a glance is enticing (I enjoy Unlock with Apple Watch, but should Watch ownership be necessary?). A device that does not sleep so long as the display has my attention (no need to keep touching either display or keyboard) is a subtle but very nice convenience. Effectively, it's detecting my thoughts, rather than awaiting a separate, physical act. And finally, the notion that "air" gestures can be incorporated into the iOS and macOS UIs is also enticing...

At the moment, Apple is running an ad called "Nap"
highlighting the benefits of Face ID over Touch ID. I'm not going to use it as proof that Apple is permanently committed to Face ID. There are plenty of examples of Apple (and other companies) pushing its current "thing" right up to the second that they abandon/replace it. And while the overall story line is tongue-in-cheek, I will say that, as someone who uses an iPhone with Face ID as well as an iPad with Touch ID... Attention awareness/Face ID does reduce some of the "friction" of using my iPhone compared to the iPad. It really doesn't matter to me whether I have to touch a Home button or can touch any spot on the display - after having Face ID, reaching out to touch in any form seems unnecessary.
 
...Unless you use sunglasses.

I know, you can change some settings to get Face ID to work with sunglasses, but then you give up some of that precious security.
It’s a “risk” I’m willing to take.


I think there are a few recent examples:
Touch ID
Back to my Mac
iTunes Radio
iTunes - not sure if this would count
Mobile Me
3D Touch
Air Power - never officially launched, but it was announced way before they actually killed it
Ping
AirPort
2013 Mac Pro

I am sure I am missing some
- Touch ID was supplanted by a better technology.
-3d Touch allegedly is being supplanted by a “better” technology.
- air power - meh doesn’t really belong in the list this is nit-picking.
- and my favorite...the headphone jack however one can still use wired headphones.
- I can’t comment on the rest.

Basically Apple being in business for a long time shuffled some stuff around and supplanted some tech with newer, better tech.
 
Seasoned industry watchers are saying that apple will include an in display fingerprint sensor in 2024 or 2025, ok. .

Did they also predict Face ID back in 2013 or 2012?
Or Touch ID back in 2008 or 2007? Nope. Wouldn’t listen to anyone that claims they know what apple will do in 4 to 5 years.

Apple went all in with Face ID, they even said as much on multiple occasions, Touch ID isn’t coming back, neither is the headphone jack, floppy disks or tail fins on cars.

Maybe when Samsung finally copies Face ID next year or the year after these rumors can be put to rest. Pixel 4 is rumored to be ditching fingerprint sensors for a Face ID clone this year. So the industry is moving forward.

Nope. Under display finger print censor is here to stay. Almost all major Android phone release this year has under display finger print censor. Huawei Mate 10, OnePlus 7 Plus etc. Industry is not moving forward to FaceID.

Samsung never really intended to use facial or retina scanning as sole method of authentication.

I am firmly on fingerprint censor side. With my experience with TouchID for few weeks that I had with iPhone XR, I is terrible. The phone has be in certain angle in order for it to work. It will never work when I lay down in the bed. 2 weeks of experience is enough for me to return iPhone XR and back to iPhone 8 Plus camp (Although I am mostly using Huawei P30 as my daily driver now).
 
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For all of you guys insistent about Touch-ID coming back, you should just give it a rest and Face The Future.
 
Unfortunately Apple looks like it’s sticking with Face ID. Many people would prefer both touch and Face ID Question is Apple listening
 
Unfortunately Apple looks like it’s sticking with Face ID. Many people would prefer both touch and Face ID Question is Apple listening

How did you derive to ‘many people would prefer touch ID and face ID’? I know I’m asking a question you don’t know the answer to, but there’s no indication that many would prefer both, I think you’re speaking for probably some on a site like this, but I’m willing to believe the majority of consumers who use face ID are completely content with it.
 
Nope. Under display finger print censor is here to stay. Almost all major Android phone release this year has under display finger print censor. Huawei Mate 10, OnePlus 7 Plus etc. Industry is not moving forward to FaceID.

Sure, until they clone it, just like Huawei cloned the iPhone X with thier p20. Google looks to be adding 3d facial recognition for the pixel 4 this year. So the industry is moving forward.

Also worth nothing is the premium android handsets you listed sell in very low volumes compared to the xr and Xs Max, that both have Face ID.

Samsung never really intended to use facial or retina scanning as sole method of authentication.

Samsung’s facial and retina biometrics sucked.
That’s probably one of the reasons why premium galaxy sales have plummeted and profit is collapsing. Don’t think their in display fingerprint sensor is going to help.

I am firmly on fingerprint censor side. With my experience with TouchID for few weeks that I had with iPhone XR, I is terrible. The phone has be in certain angle in order for it to work. It will never work when I lay down in the bed. 2 weeks of experience is enough for me to return iPhone XR and back to iPhone 8 Plus camp (Although I am mostly using Huawei P30 as my daily driver now).

New technologies such as Face ID is usually hard for some to use.....and easier for others.
 
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Without getting too deep into it, there are a couple basic things that convince me that FaceID is here to stay. This is not to say that Apple won’t possibly including an in display TouchID, but I personally believe the thought process that they’ll eliminate FID is silly.

1) Security. Apple is all about it and has claimed time and time again that FID is far more secure than TID. Doesn’t matter the implementation, the end result is the same. If they’re saying a face is more secure than a fingerprint, they’ll most likely stick with at LEAST the more secure method, if not supplying both simultaneously.

2) AR & Animoji (Memoji), and FFC lighting effects. Apple has invested millions beyond millions building its Animoji product and advertising it. The facial tracking that FID offers allows it to be far superior to what others offer (especially Samsung). I personally haven’t seen any tech demoed that can mimic Animoji like movements by use of only a traditional FFC. As far as the studio lighting effects added by the FFC, it’s my understanding that the FaceID tech helps separate the object from the background and also allows the contours of the face to be read for more accurate highlighting and shadowing of the face.

I don’t personally think Apple gives up security or backtracks on one of its cornerstone fun features it debuted with the iPhoneX in favor of TID in the display. At best, they do both. At worst, they stick with FID.
 
I would rather have Touch ID instead of Face ID. The ease of use versus face is night and day to me even though I truly don’t mind whichever.
 
Here's what I want: I want to put on my watch, unlock the phone via the password AND face-ID or touch-ID - either or both works for me - then I want the phone to stay unlocked for as long as I wear the watch. Surely this could be done through some sort of electrical signal that verifies that the phone is being held by the same person who wears the watch?

And then I remove my face and I've been Tom Cruise all along. Mission Impossible theme begins to play
 
I’ve always been curious about this stat. What is it comparing exactly? The likelihood of two people having the same fingerprint vs having the same face?

Apple says the chance of a random stranger unlocking your device is actually less likely with Face ID than with Touch ID: 1 in 1,000,000, versus 1 in 50,000. However, the company warns that the probability increases between twins and siblings, or users under 13 years old. If you’re concerned about that, Apple simply recommends you unlock your phone the old fashioned way, with a passcode.”

https://www.tomsguide.com/amp/us/face-id-faq,news-25910.html
 
I was a faceid denier. But after using the xsmax for a year, there’s no reason to go back to Touch ID. Faceid is better in almost every way.

Keep improving faceid. Forget touchid.
 
I was in denial about faceid too. It should work better for me during winter months when I have gloves on so I just need to look at my phone to unlock it.
 
Apple says the chance of a random stranger unlocking your device is actually less likely with Face ID than with Touch ID: 1 in 1,000,000, versus 1 in 50,000. However, the company warns that the probability increases between twins and siblings, or users under 13 years old. If you’re concerned about that, Apple simply recommends you unlock your phone the old fashioned way, with a passcode.”

https://www.tomsguide.com/amp/us/face-id-faq,news-25910.html
Thanks for that.

So then what I’m wondering is if the statistic takes into account that it’s almost impossible for someone to know whether they share a fingerprint with someone else (therefore said person would probably never think to try to unlock the other person’s device) whereas it would be obvious if a person shares the same face with someone else, which could give them the idea to try to unlock the other person’s device. I would think that would greatly change those odds.
Or another way to look at it, a thief has to Touch ID 50,000 phones to have a good chance of being a close enough match to be able to unlock one. He doesn’t have to Face ID 1,000,000 phones though, because he’d probably only even target people who look similar to him, which changes the odds.

This all seems silly and moot though, because those numbers are simply too large to make the scenario remotely realistic. The likelihood of either is just absurdly small. Except in the case of siblings or children, as it said.
 
Posters here seem to be stuck with the old mentality that fingerprint is 1:50,000. That number is based on capacitive 2D fingerprint sensors with 500 DPI introduced by Apple in 2013.

Current 3D ultrasonic and optical scanners look beyond the fingerprint and into the blood capillaries to prevent spoofing. The DPI has doubled.
 
Thanks for that.

So then what I’m wondering is if the statistic takes into account that it’s almost impossible for someone to know whether they share a fingerprint with someone else (therefore said person would probably never think to try to unlock the other person’s device) whereas it would be obvious if a person shares the same face with someone else, which could give them the idea to try to unlock the other person’s device. I would think that would greatly change those odds.
Or another way to look at it, a thief has to Touch ID 50,000 phones to have a good chance of being a close enough match to be able to unlock one. He doesn’t have to Face ID 1,000,000 phones though, because he’d probably only even target people who look similar to him, which changes the odds.

This all seems silly and moot though, because those numbers are simply too large to make the scenario remotely realistic. The likelihood of either is just absurdly small. Except in the case of siblings or children, as it said.

There can be huge differences between two people or fingerprints that seem to look the same, once you reduce them to measurements (biometrics, after all, means life/body measurement). The reason a twin or other close relative may fool Face ID has as much to do with underlying bone structure (distances and angles between, say, the tip of the nose, point of chin, corners of the mouth, and bottom of ear lobes) and much less to do with some of the cosmetic things we consider when assessing similarity. Genetic similarity is more than skin-deep.

Both Touch ID and Face ID are measuring angles, point-to-point distances, etc. - mathematical relationships, angles, and ratios between selected features, rather than actual images ("this face/fingerprint looks like that one").

Perhaps the key reason Face ID is superior to Touch ID (and other, less successful facial recognition systems) is that it's measuring those relationships in three dimensions rather than two - there's simply more to work with. Length x width vs. length x width x depth. Two people who look similar in full-front 2D photos may look less similar when you compare their profiles (one of the reasons the police take mug shots from various angles). Someone with a close genetic tie is more likely to be similar from every angle, not just some.
 
As to which is more power-hungry - validating ID each time a touch-screen is touched (which is near-constant, of course), or when it's being looked at (also near-constant)... The energy impact is not that easy to judge one way or the other. That devil is deeply embedded in the details. Apple claims the energy impact of Face ID is small. Would the addition of fingerprint ID to a display have zero impact on energy utilization? Maybe yes, maybe no. If tomorrow's fingerprint-scanning display used no more energy than today's non-scanning displays, I'd still ask whether other energy savings had been made in the display module to offset the energy consumed by scanning. If so, there's still an energy cost.

In terms of power, ultrasonic readers are measured in hundreds of microwatts for continuous operation.

For Face ID, the VCSEL flood illuminator uses a couple hundred milliwatts. At this point, there is no way to use Face ID for continuous biometrics.

I happen to be a fan of Face ID, so I don't think it'd come up a loser. Its sensor array delivers a variety of features that go beyond ID verification, while a fingerprint scanner can do just that one thing. I'm looking forward to Face ID on Mac. The notion that my Mac can log in or wake from sleep at a glance is enticing (I enjoy Unlock with Apple Watch, but should Watch ownership be necessary?). A device that does not sleep so long as the display has my attention (no need to keep touching either display or keyboard) is a subtle but very nice convenience. Effectively, it's detecting my thoughts, rather than awaiting a separate, physical act. And finally, the notion that "air" gestures can be incorporated into the iOS and macOS UIs is also enticing...

Current fingerprint scanners read blood flow because they scan the blood capillaries. As a result, they can measure heart rate and potentially blood sugar level.

Face ID offers attention aware features. Sooner or later, these features will be duplicated by using the conventional CIS camera in combination with software using the neural engine. It's the whole 3D Touch situation all over again. Why spend money on the hardware if software can provide 80% of the benefits at 20% of the cost?
 
2) AR & Animoji (Memoji), and FFC lighting effects. Apple has invested millions beyond millions building its Animoji product and advertising it. The facial tracking that FID offers allows it to be far superior to what others offer (especially Samsung). I personally haven’t seen any tech demoed that can mimic Animoji like movements by use of only a traditional FFC. As far as the studio lighting effects added by the FFC, it’s my understanding that the FaceID tech helps separate the object from the background and also allows the contours of the face to be read for more accurate highlighting and shadowing of the face.

Ask how Apple is able to do Portrait Mode on iPhone XR. Ask how Google can sharpen photos so well and do Portrait Mode with a single camera. It's a matter of time before conventional cameras can mimic Animoji functions.

Apple will eventually put the TrueDepth sensor on the rear of the iPhone. It's not as if all research is lost if Apple removes TrueDepth from the front. All that learned research will be used on AR and mapping groups of people and surroundings instead of a single face.
 
In terms of power, ultrasonic readers are measured in hundreds of microwatts for continuous operation.

For Face ID, the VCSEL flood illuminator uses a couple hundred milliwatts. At this point, there is no way to use Face ID for continuous biometrics.



Current fingerprint scanners read blood flow because they scan the blood capillaries. As a result, they can measure heart rate and potentially blood sugar level.

Face ID offers attention aware features. Sooner or later, these features will be duplicated by using the conventional CIS camera in combination with software using the neural engine. It's the whole 3D Touch situation all over again. Why spend money on the hardware if software can provide 80% of the benefits at 20% of the cost?

Your just making stuff up.

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