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crazy dave

macrumors 65816
Sep 9, 2010
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1,229
Will the average user care though? The only mainstream use for much faster graphics would be gaming, no? Far as I know gaming is nonexistent on the Mac. Is this a play to change that?
Perhaps but Apple also aims it’s higher end devices at the professional/prosumer market where you have lots of applications for graphical power from 3D rendering to compute. It’s why Apple has been suddenly so interested in joining blender and adding Metal GPU ray tracing support (even though they haven’t yet released hardware with it yet).

Tech companies don’t release new desktop/laptop processors so that those who purchased the previous generation can upgrade. They release them mainly for users who are looking to upgrade their much older machines.

The M series is only really significantly ahead by one metric - power efficiency. Apples newest pro chips are already behind Intel on pure performance. Apple holds no lead at all in the desktop space, where battery life is of no concern.

Apple has only released two (main) CPU configurations so far (4+4, 8+2).
 
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Reggaenald

Suspended
Sep 26, 2021
864
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That's --- a different product entirely.
If one has no need/desire for it to ever be a laptop, that's money wasted really.
True. But imaging having both, a computer you can use with your stuff on your desk and when you’re not at your desk. Sounds like a great product to be. Better then one you have to use at your desk and only at your desk. I for my part wouldnt get a dedicated desktop computer but one I can use at my or any other desk or place I like.
A bunch of people here do exactly that.
 

MayaUser

macrumors 68040
Nov 22, 2021
3,178
7,200
Will the average user care though? The only mainstream use for much faster graphics would be gaming, no? Far as I know gaming is nonexistent on the Mac. Is this a play to change that?
as a Maya user i need the faster gpu...M2 is not enough when i have the M1 max
But still, to have over 40% improvements in gpu from M1 to M2 is very nice, and if they can keep this pace...none else can
 
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ChrisA

macrumors G5
Jan 5, 2006
12,919
2,172
Redondo Beach, California
The only rational explanation for M2 in a 13" MacBook Pro next month is that all future Macs announced henceforth will be M2-based. I know, I know... we haven't transitioned completely away from Intel yet. Other than the iPhone SE & iPad Air upgrades the rest is murky.

We don't know what an "M2" is. My gues is that it is an M1 with reduced feature size so that it can be cheaper to make and also use less power. If that is the case then, yes all newer macs will use M2.

if Apple wanted a much more powerful ARM based CPU there are already ARM-based chip that blow M1 completely out of the water, but use a ton of power doing so. Apple is not pushhing the limits of ARM, they seem to be more concerned with using little power and battery life. I would really like to see Apple put a far-larger chip in their desktop sysytems where battery life is not an issue.

Here is what the high-end of the ARM CPU chip market looks like.
Look at the specs on this ARM-based CPU, 128 cores, and up to 64TB of RAM (Yes TB, not GB) https://d1o0i0v5q5lp8h.cloudfront.n...rief/Altra_Max_Rev_A1_PB_v0.55_2021061261.pdf This would fit into a Mac Pro chassis.

Apple could build something like this but their direction is low power, not high performance. I suspect the M2 follows that path and runs cooler then M1 and costs less to make than M1.
 

theluggage

macrumors G3
Jul 29, 2011
8,015
8,449
if Apple wanted a much more powerful ARM based CPU there are already ARM-based chip that blow M1 completely out of the water, but use a ton of power doing so. Apple is not pushhing the limits of ARM, they seem to be more concerned with using little power and battery life.
...actually, one of the selling points of the other high-power ARM-based CPUs is that they do use less power than Intel equivalents - which is important if you've got racks of the things sweating away in a large data center. However, they're also designed for the server market, and especially areas where Linux is widely adopted - Linux/Unix has run on ARM since forever and there's a culture of processor-independence amongst Linux developers, so it's pretty well supported. Meanwhile, although ARM is getting popular in supercomputing, that often means that the ARM is basically a control processor for custom vector processors and suchlike, which would be pretty useless for general computing.

Remember that Apple Silicon isn't just about the ARM instruction set - it's about GPUs, "neural engines", hardware codec acceleration etc. designed specifically for MacOS applications (plus ISTR there's some secret sauce in there that makes x86 code translated by Rosetta more efficient) and a chunk of their performance advantage comes from having on-package RAM and on-die GPU with very short connection distances. The ARM server chips from Amazon et. al. won't be any good for that. AFAIK, unlike most of those other chips, the M1 isn't even using an off-the-peg ARM core design.

Nobody knows how much of Apple's Mac income comes from the Mac Pro/Xeon end of the market - probably it is the MacBooks that are their cash cow, and making better Macbooks will be the focus of M1 development. The Mac Pro can be served by chaining together lots of M1/M2s in parallel - after all, the big difference between the $6000 and $25,000 Xeon Mac Pros is having lots of CPU and GPU cores which aren't that different from the core-i ones (and are actually sometimes slower, per-core).
 

DHagan4755

macrumors 68020
Original poster
Jul 18, 2002
2,266
6,149
Massachusetts
So around March 8th, Apple announces:
  • Refreshed 13" MacBook Pro with M2 (replaces existing model with M1).
  • Refreshed low-end Mac mini with new design & M2 (replaces existing model with M1).
  • Refreshed iMac 24" with M2 (replaces higher-end configurations that have M1); lower end two USB-C port M1 model will remain (perhaps at a lower price point).

It's looking like Mark Gurman's thinking is somewhat aligned with mine...

Given that two of the oldest Apple Silicon Macs in the lineup today are the entry-level MacBook Pro and Mac mini, I’d guess that those models will be next to be upgraded.
 
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MajorFubar

macrumors 68020
Oct 27, 2021
2,174
3,826
Lancashire UK
And you know another thing that's curious, will it have MagSafe 3? If the redesigned MacBook Air's going to have it, but the 13" MacBook Pro M2 doesn't, boy that would be odd. I wonder how difficult it would be to incorporate it into the existing 13" MacBook Pro design?
The only form factor I wouldn't expect will ever get the magsafe is the Mac Mini, unless they redesign the whole form-factor and make it too slim to fit the PSU in it. It doesn't make sense to use an external PSU otherwise. I've seen some renders of a slimmer-looking Mini powered by MagSafe, but it takes two seconds to realise they are enthusiasts' renders and haven't come from a reputable source. On one of the renders the USB C ports are clearly so close together you wouldn't be able to use them all at once.
 
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dugbug

macrumors 68000
Aug 23, 2008
1,929
2,147
Somewhere in Florida
Perhaps but Apple also aims it’s higher end devices at the professional/prosumer market where you have lots of applications for graphical power from 3D rendering to compute. It’s why Apple has been suddenly so interested in joining blender and adding Metal GPU ray tracing support (even though they haven’t yet released hardware with it yet).



Apple has only released two (main) CPU configurations so far (4+4, 8+2).

What about the 6+2 pro? Its not a binned max
 

crazy dave

macrumors 65816
Sep 9, 2010
1,453
1,229
What about the 6+2 pro? Its not a binned max
? It’s a binned Pro chip. I said “two (main) CPU configurations” - the major difference between the Pro and the Max is the GPU and the CPU cluster design is identical.
 

DHagan4755

macrumors 68020
Original poster
Jul 18, 2002
2,266
6,149
Massachusetts
I hope there is a MacMini Pro with M2 with 16GB, new enclosure with 4 USBC. That would be an almost instantly buy for me. I would trade in my existing M1 Mini.
The Mac mini has to be the highlight of this March event. The order in the presentation is probably 13" MacBook Pro M2, iMac 24" M2, and redesigned Mac mini with M2 as the finale. Four USB-C ports on the Mac mini would be awesome. Cherry on top would be allowing for up to 32GB of RAM.
 
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lcubed

macrumors 6502a
Nov 19, 2020
540
326
The Mac mini has to be the highlight of this March event. The order in the presentation is probably 13" MacBook Pro M2, iMac 24" M2, and redesigned Mac mini with M2 as the finale. Four USB-C ports on the Mac mini would be awesome. Cherry on top would be allowing for up to 32GB of RAM.
Cherry on top would be allowing up to 64 GB of RAM
 

thenewperson

macrumors 6502a
Mar 27, 2011
992
912
The Mac mini has to be the highlight of this March event. The order in the presentation is probably 13" MacBook Pro M2, iMac 24" M2, and redesigned Mac mini with M2 as the finale. Four USB-C ports on the Mac mini would be awesome. Cherry on top would be allowing for up to 32GB of RAM.
Being able to use 4 USB/TB ports in an M2 Mac would be really nice. And if they're reusing the shell of the 13" there'd be space to go with the higher 13" body with 4 TB ports ?
 

DHagan4755

macrumors 68020
Original poster
Jul 18, 2002
2,266
6,149
Massachusetts
Being able to use 4 USB/TB ports in an M2 Mac would be really nice. And if they're reusing the shell of the 13" there'd be space to go with the higher 13" body with 4 TB ports ?
I’m doubtful Apple will do that on the 13” MacBook Pro. Even though that would be awesome. At the very least MagSafe would be nice. And hopefully Mark Gurman is right that the Touch Bar is gone.
 

deconstruct60

macrumors G5
Mar 10, 2009
12,493
4,053
Perhaps but Apple also aims it’s higher end devices at the professional/prosumer market where you have lots of applications for graphical power from 3D rendering to compute. It’s why Apple has been suddenly so interested in joining blender and adding Metal GPU ray tracing support (even though they haven’t yet released hardware with it yet).

Apple doing work on Blender is partially because Apple blew up Blenders plans. Apple doesn't support Vulkan and have placed OpenGL and OpenCL on deprecated list. The number of multiple platform graphics frameworks they support is basically at zero .

The path of zero 3rd party GPU driver support in macOS on M-series means it is not just Intel CPU cores that are support death march, it is any other possible GPU option. Metal is solidly on a path to being a unilateral GPU API. (maybe that changes at WWDC 2022. Looks pretty dim at the moment).

[ Yes there are 3rd parties putting porting libraries on top of Metal. Vulkan -- MoltenVK . Various gaming engines. etc. However, the core "open" paradigm here that Apple followed at the beginning of MacOS X is disrupted at this point. It is about digging a bigger moat on a large enough ecosystem to get away with pushing most port costs onto the external developers and off of Apple's expenses. . ]

So Apple's 'interest' here has a large component in the corner they painted the possible solutions into (only Metal).
There is some "science lab experience" feedback Apple can get by doing the subset of Blender component port and using that to fill in the evolutionary gaps in the Metal API in the ray tracing space. But substantively, they are just filling in the bomb crater hole they made in the first place.
 

crazy dave

macrumors 65816
Sep 9, 2010
1,453
1,229
Apple doing work on Blender is partially because Apple blew up Blenders plans. Apple doesn't support Vulkan and have placed OpenGL and OpenCL on deprecated list. The number of multiple platform graphics frameworks they support is basically at zero .

The path of zero 3rd party GPU driver support in macOS on M-series means it is not just Intel CPU cores that are support death march, it is any other possible GPU option. Metal is solidly on a path to being a unilateral GPU API. (maybe that changes at WWDC 2022. Looks pretty dim at the moment).

[ Yes there are 3rd parties putting porting libraries on top of Metal. Vulkan -- MoltenVK . Various gaming engines. etc. However, the core "open" paradigm here that Apple followed at the beginning of MacOS X is disrupted at this point. It is about digging a bigger moat on a large enough ecosystem to get away with pushing most port costs onto the external developers and off of Apple's expenses. . ]

So Apple's 'interest' here has a large component in the corner they painted the possible solutions into (only Metal).
There is some "science lab experience" feedback Apple can get by doing the subset of Blender component port and using that to fill in the evolutionary gaps in the Metal API in the ray tracing space. But substantively, they are just filling in the bomb crater hole they made in the first place.

Ok, personally I don’t think that’s the right framing here, but it is also not the point I was making in my post.
 

staypuftforums

macrumors 6502
Jun 27, 2021
412
855
I hope there is a MacMini Pro with M2 with 16GB, new enclosure with 4 USBC. That would be an almost instantly buy for me. I would trade in my existing M1 Mini.
What would make it a “Pro”? Just the additional ports?

Redesigned M2 at same price point is what I’m hoping for.

M1 Pro and Max can go in the “Pro” model.
 

Fomalhaut

macrumors 68000
Oct 6, 2020
1,993
1,724
I hope there is a MacMini Pro with M2 with 16GB, new enclosure with 4 USBC. That would be an almost instantly buy for me. I would trade in my existing M1 Mini.
Would you really upgrade the machine for two more USB-C ports and slightly better performance (maybe only 5-10% CPU improvement) ? Why not just get a USB hub or a dock? That would be cheaper than the cost of selling and buying a new one.
 

kiranmk2

macrumors 68000
Oct 4, 2008
1,666
2,308
I'm putting my M1 mini up for sale as soon as I get a clean Big Sur install on it. It's taking longer than I expected to wipe it and do a clean install.

You can do an iPhone-like 'Erase all content and settings' on M1/T2 - equipped Macs direct from the desktop now. No need for reboots and keyboard inputs before startup.

 
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kiranmk2

macrumors 68000
Oct 4, 2008
1,666
2,308
On the Macbooks, my feeling is that Apple will add M2 to the 13" MBP and keep the design the same - no 4 USB ports, no Magsafe; possibly the Touchbar will go. The price will stay the same at $1299.

Then, later in the year when the redesigned MBA comes out I think the new MBA takes up the $1299 price point and the 13" MBP looses the touchbar (if it hadn't already) and the price drops to $999 to maintain that price point (possible in conjuction with a rebrand to MacBook).

Thus you have the following laptop range

$999 - MacBook - old design, no Magsafe, old display but the current M2 chip (a MacBook SE, if you will)
$1299 - MacBook Air - new design: Magsafe, miniLED screen and M2 chip
$1999 - 14" MacBook Pro
$2499 - 16" MacBook Pro

Yes, there is a price gap between the MBA and the MBP, but I think the options on the MBA (CPU cores, RAM, SSD) will help it fill that gap.
 

jerryk

macrumors 604
Nov 3, 2011
7,421
4,208
SF Bay Area
Would you really upgrade the machine for two more USB-C ports and slightly better performance (maybe only 5-10% CPU improvement) ? Why not just get a USB hub or a dock? That would be cheaper than the cost of selling and buying a new one.
For me I would also get 16 gb of memory. My current 8GB system is too small for my workload.

Also, I would like it if they used an external power brick with Ethernet like the iMac and give the mini a slimmer case.
 
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