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There is no indication in El Capitan beta for Maxwell drivers
That doesn't stop Apple from introducing drivers in future updates.

In games GTX 680 is as fast as GTX 980 Ti
This is probably due to a poor selection of older games from 2011 and 2012 at only moderate resolution. Its likely these are CPU limited, as its running on an older mac pro tower. Look at higher resolution tests and we see the GTX 980 separate itself from the 680 (using older drivers). It would be nice to see Barefeats update their gaming benchmarks to include some more modern games.
 
That doesn't stop Apple from introducing drivers in future updates.


This is probably due to a poor selection of older games from 2011 and 2012 at only moderate resolution. Its likely these are CPU limited, as its running on an older mac pro tower. Look at higher resolution tests and we see the GTX 980 separate itself from the 680 (using older drivers). It would be nice to see Barefeats update their gaming benchmarks to include some more modern games.

Yep, do you have games you recommend? Rob might do another test if there was specific interest.

Though I imagine these days he is getting pressured to test which iWatch app can get a puppy pic up on Facebook the fastest.

As obvious as it is that Apple shouldn't use those new age space heaters by AMD, they probably will anyway. They'll just have to use mobile versions, or down clock/down volt/castrate/reduce, etc. Looking forward to what Nano brings to the table.

But mobile GM200 is going to be something. Will be funny if it is faster, cooler, and less power hungry then Nano.
 
Im not talking about old versions of Web drivers from Nvidia, but current version of drivers.

About numbers. I would not take serious BareFeats numbers as he reported that D700 averages in Diablo 3 53 FPS on OS X in 4K resolution, which should be playable and pretty enjoyable in gameplay, whereas people who have the same computer on OS X say completely opposite thing.
 
Yep, do you have games you recommend? Rob might do another test if there was specific interest.
I would like to see more games that are commonly benchmarked on windows. Unfortunately the selection of games that are benchmarked for windows and are also available for OS X is very small but would include Bioshock Infinite, Civilization: Beyond Earth and Middle Earth: Shadows of Mordor. Other candidates would be popular games that are less commonly benchmarked like Elite Dangerous, City Skylines or whatever the newest Blizzard game is. You could also lump in here popular games like league of legends but that one is not exactly the most GPU intensive game. Of course once El Capitan is released, getting some metal based games or benchmarks would be great.
 
Well that wasn't Apple's initial thought process before. They were all about speed and performance.

i think our memories of the good ol days might be a bit different.. to me, apple is about the same regarding speed and performance now as they've always been.. it's important to them. their current lineup (at least mac pro, mbp, and imac)
are certainly fast.. but it's never been the main focus or main salespitch (overall user experience being the main focus).


Just to let you know, this is more up my alley:

Rr2pkO2wGE8

That other link you gave me to see, didn't impress me much.

heh.. i just searched beast computer --playing off hackinBeast : )

but that computer in the video is crap compared to the stuff apple makes.. srry.
($10,000 computer.. hundreds of thousands of dollars for this case design but don't pick it up from the top-- the place you'd expect it to be lifted from.. or else you'll rip the top off.. careful opening the panel.. it's spring loaded and our video guy almost cracked it.. (~2mins in the video))

it's just different expectations from different people.. some people might want 3 radiators in a plastic star wars looking box.. clear panels to see the innards and neon etc..
pretty sure the apple designers might barf at that though :)
 
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i think our memories of the good ol days might be a bit different.. to me, apple is about the same regarding speed and performance now as they've always been.. it's important to them. their current lineup (at least mac pro, mbp, and imac)
are certainly fast.. but it's never been the main focus or main salespitch (overall user experience being the main focus).

Huh.

Short memory, I guess.

Megahertz Myth...was that about user or experience?

Im not talking about old versions of Web drivers from Nvidia, but current version of drivers.

About numbers. I would not take serious BareFeats numbers as he reported that D700 averages in Diablo 3 53 FPS on OS X in 4K resolution, which should be playable and pretty enjoyable in gameplay, whereas people who have the same computer on OS X say completely opposite thing.

I find the opposite true. I test a few dozen cards a week, and I usually find I can be around 1-4% off his numbers. And when customers write and say "something wrong with card, didn't speed my machine up" I typically advise them to go to his site and try same benches, if they can get same speeds, card is OK.

This applies more to stand alone benches, mores then games. Doom 3 was nice because it had a built in benchmark, not so many games do now. So benching game becomes more subjective.
 
well there you go. For those thinking that the physical apperance will change in the newer version.

Dude said it! Paraphrasing... architecture for the next 10 years.

:p
 
There are some interesting rumors out there today about a Nvidia GTX 990M, which would be a cut down mobile variant of GM200 (aka GTX 980 Ti/Titan X).

cut down how? Just simply clocked down or also turning off some function subsections? For example ....

D310: GM204 cut down, 4 GB VRAM (aka GTX 970)
D510: GM204 full, 8 GB VRAM (aka GTX 980)
D710: GM200 cut down, 12 GB VRAM (aka GTX 980 Ti)

Mobile variants that support 12 GB of VRAM probably aren't necessary. There is simply just not that much room in most laptops for the maximum number of VRAM chips.

If Apple is looking for "Pro" Windows drivers to go along with the offering then these are probably more of interest than the mobile specific versions.

http://www.anandtech.com/show/9516/...-m4000-video-cards-designworks-software-suite



Apple may be in an uncomfortable position with AMD's recent Fiji chip, which is limited to 4 GB VRAM. They would have to choose between slower Hawaii with more VRAM, or faster Fiji with less VRAM

If the RAM footprint working set size of the workload being targeted is >6GB then the Hawaii isn't necessarily slower. Likewise if can copy and work at the same time to faster memory the 4GB isn't. "But games are hardcoded to maximum cache of textures" isn't necessarily a OS X constraint. Especially if looking at apps that primarily use the OS X core graphics foundation. In that subset, all that is necessary is for the core foundation to be updated to the new methodology; not all of the applications on top.

There is no reason Apple could offer but a "high cache" workload offering and a max RAM I/O offering. It isn't not a overly simplistic as "bigger everything" marketing, but it is doable.

Just because Apple has been going all AMD in recent years doesn't mean they won't switch back and forth, depending on various competitive factors.

It is multiple dimension of factors that likely wins the design bake-offs. Not simply based on max benchmarks popular Windows games. Also not simply based on just price.

It may help Nvidia is Apple walks away from Khronos/OpenGL/OpenCL and goes primarily Metal (and OS X specific core graphics layered on top). Nvidia's 'war' on OpenCL hasn't helping them win Apple design bake-offs. If Nvidia are willing to do max effort to Metal they may even out their competitive performance on at least that dimension of the evaluation criteria.

Don't forget though that Intel is a competitor here. In the Mac product space there are three GPU vendors that Apple works with; Intel , AMD , and Nvidia. The player with the most business right now across the whole Mac Pro line up is Intel; not AMD or Nvidia. In the narrow Mac Pro space Intel isn't a major player yet.


Perhaps some supporting evidence might be the big gains in performance for Maxwell seen in the most recent driver updates, measured by Barefeats.

Not necessarily so. If this is primarily a "f you" aimed at maximizing the number of folks holding onto previous generation Mac Pros and filling them with Nvidia cards run CUDA optimized code then that isn't going to help them win "bonus" points at future Apple design wins. (i.e., max Nvidia revenue short term and step on Apple's toes/processes where ever possible. )

If this primarily is keeping the general driver code base up to competitive edge and mostly a side effect of releasing stuff because working on it anyway, then that has more general upside. It is indicative that Nvidia is still trying to compete for design wins. [ i.e.., current desktop drivers turn into foundation for future mobile drivers and design bake-off prospective over a broader range of Mac products than just the Mac Pro. ]
 
Good points!

Just riffing a bit on the core count... if Apple was to adopt this new Intel® Xeon® Processor E3-1500M v5 Product Family for mobile workstations, which in Intel's own words is targeted towards "content creators, designers and engineers," then one way they could handle it is this:

Representative product that the E3-1500M v5 is aimed at:

http://anandtech.com/show/9503/leno...ile-workstations-with-first-mobile-xeon-chips

It is indicative though that Apple should do something with the approaching 2 year old Mac Pro design though. The entry level Mac Pro configuration doesn't match well with this on a couple of dimensions and there is a 4K screen actually included here. Move up in configurations and there is definitely bigger gap improvement for the Mac Pro.
 
cut down how? Just simply clocked down or also turning off some function subsections? For example ....
The article quotes a rumor that says it will be cut down from ~3000 cores to ~2500 cores. Its likely down clocked from the desktop version as well.

Mobile variants that support 12 GB of VRAM probably aren't necessary. There is simply just not that much room in most laptops for the maximum number of VRAM chips.

If Apple is looking for "Pro" Windows drivers to go along with the offering then these are probably more of interest than the mobile specific versions.
Certainly 12 GB of VRAM is a lot of memory, especially in a laptop. But in the context of the Mac Pro, professional cards exist in the Quadro and FireGL lineups with 16 GB and up. Its not out of the realm of something that Apple would put in the top tier of a "professional" machine. When the current Mac Pro came out, I think the top of the line Nvidia Titans were sitting at the same 6 GB of VRAM that is in the D700.

Don't forget though that Intel is a competitor here. In the Mac product space there are three GPU vendors that Apple works with; Intel , AMD , and Nvidia. The player with the most business right now across the whole Mac Pro line up is Intel; not AMD or Nvidia. In the narrow Mac Pro space Intel isn't a major player yet.
Intel has been slowly working its way up the Mac lineup. There use to be a time when all Apple laptops included discrete graphics. Currently and in the future I expect only the top tier Apple machines to include discrete graphics. I bet the upcoming 21" ~4k iMacs have broadwell processors with the improved Iris Pro graphics chip with eDRAM, replacing discrete cards from Nvidia. In general though, I am not sure if intel will try and compete at the very top end against AMD and Nvidia. Maybe it depends on how much workloads start to become GPU parallelized and if Intel continues to hit a wall in terms of single threaded performance on their CPUs.
 
That's an insane modular design

What clock speed do you run your SR2 at? Is it air or water cooled?

All the information that you need is right here:

http://www.insanelymac.com/forum/topic/277433-punknuggets-mod-the-hackinbeast/

Read EVERYTHING on this post and you'll get all the info you need. Yes it's water cooled and have been using the same machine now for over 3.5 years and have had NO ISSUES WHATSOEVER as I built this thing to last. Now I run it at stock speeds, as I don't need to prove myself to anyone anymore and I'm getting close to 28,000 GB scores. So that's fast enough for me for now. But I'm doing another new build that hopefully will get close to 50,000 GB. We'll see if that can even happen. If not, then I'm going to use Windows 10 and be able to pull over 60,000 GB for the same exact NEW setup here:

1 x Asus Z10PE-D16
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813132257

2 x E5-2640 v3's
Engineering Samples that have been used and are warranted for 45 days. Plus I got them done from eBay so I'm protected regardless as we've had "paper trail" conversations about the details of these CPUs. In any case I only paid $500.00 each for them (as new ones retail for $967 each). Hopefully they work fine. If not then I'll return them and get new ones…

2 x EVGA 980 Ti GPUs
These will meet more than enough of my needs for now... until I buy a third one - LOL ! (just kidding the board can only handle 2 anyway).

2 x Crucial DDR4-2133 64GB (4x16GB) RAM kits (128GB Total)
http://www.superbiiz.com/detail.php?name=CTD421RX64

You see, I can use this setup on Windows 10 and get a GB of 60,000+ and with Mac OS X (IF it works… and that's a big IF), I will only get a GB score of 47,000 to 50,000. Now, if I used a better Dual CPU setup on this new system (like E5-2699 v3's) I would be able to easily get a GB score of 75,000 to 80,000+. This is where Apple should be by now, but again, that's not their focus...
 
You cited that there were 100's of thousands of hackintoshs being built. Any quantitative justification for that number or just pulling numbers out of the air?

Apple is selling around 18-20M Macs per year. Even a hacintosh rate of 200K/yr is about 1-1.1% piracy rate which isn't that bad. It is never going to be zero. Are there more hackintoshes now than 6 years ago? Yes. Are there more Macs sold per year than 6 years ago? Yes.

If the hackintosh guesstimate is being measured by forum/site membership or software download numbers then that is rather dubious. It does not directly measure daily usage of actual systems. There are more than few folks who join sites for other reasons than the primary purpose. Likewise, there are probably more than a few abandoned Frankenstein projects in people's hobby workbenches.

Just giving a "guesstimate." I've been doing this for about 5 years now and have a pretty good gauge on this. Regardless of the number of Hackintoshes out there, I can say this about your comment, in the last 4 years I know of professional graphic designers, 3D artists and animators that use Hackintoshes for actual production machines for a living, but more and more are (unfortunately) having to switch to using Windows as a result the Dual CPU 32 Core "Cap" issue that Mac OS X is dealing with. Their are plenty of these production pros that can't stand using Apple's TrashCan Pro as a result of this, because they need machines that are going to perform. Even the TrashCan Pro is a piece of crap compared to my machine when it comes to performance and my machine is nearly 4 years old - LOL!!! Again, using Windows you don't have that Core Cap issue, hence the reason why I might be switching, until Apple rewrites their code to overcome this Core Cap issue, but I don't see that happening anytime soon…

PS - I see you made a comment using the "Piracy" word. Please enough with this "Piracy" crap issue. I paid for my OS (when they were selling it at the time) and I can do what I want it, as long as I'm not producing and selling PC machines to others using Mac OS X to make a profit. It's my own business what I do with my own machine - PERIOD! The only foolish people that got busted for selling actual Hackintoshes was Psystar:

https://www.macrumors.com/2012/05/1...a-close-as-u-s-supreme-court-declines-review/

That was stupid on their part for doing this to begin with. What made it even funnier is that they were initially based in Germany and because of a packaging loophole they were able to avoid all the fines and were basically told to stop producing their Hackintoshes and they did. But these same foolish people came here to America and started up shop again and now because they were in the USA, got sued again and Apple OWNED them. They not only won, but got awarded money. They should have stayed in Germany and stopped what they were doing, or if they wanted to come here in the USA, they should have chosen a different field, but chose not to and got what they went after.
 
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Those Xeon 1500 v5 came to disrupt once again the lineup of Intel.
Not complaining, looks promising for pro laptops really, and apparently they are not expensive.
However, it might either indicate that Broadwell is indeed dead and Skylake 1600 v5 will be coming sooner than expected (that would be great, hopefully this is the case) or it's not even remotely related to 1600 series and we get our hopes up and it will be another disappointment, another year+ of waiting.
Right now I'd say the 1500 and 1600 are somewhat related, and maybe the launch now is a test in the mobile platform for the WS portfolio to come. Based on the same silicon, only capped (1500) in core count and speed to fit the mobile power envelope. If this is the case, great news. Still, nothing in Intel roadmaps hints at the 1600 coming sooner - although there was no indication of the 1500 as well.
So, another topic up for debate.
One thing seems pretty sure, the 1500 will not find their way into the MacPro, I don't think they'll come down from the 1600 series Xeons anytime.
Maybe they'll have an iMac Pro with the 1500, or even the MacBook Pro 17" again with it. But unlikely.
 
i think our memories of the good ol days might be a bit different.. to me, apple is about the same regarding speed and performance now as they've always been.. it's important to them. their current lineup (at least mac pro, mbp, and imac)
are certainly fast.. but it's never been the main focus or main salespitch (overall user experience being the main focus).




heh.. i just searched beast computer --playing off hackinBeast : )

but that computer in the video is crap compared to the stuff apple makes.. srry.
($10,000 computer.. hundreds of thousands of dollars for this case design but don't pick it up from the top-- the place you'd expect it to be lifted from.. or else you'll rip the top off.. careful opening the panel.. it's spring loaded and our video guy almost cracked it.. (~2mins in the video))

it's just different expectations from different people.. some people might want 3 radiators in a plastic star wars looking box.. clear panels to see the innards and neon etc..
pretty sure the apple designers might barf at that though :)

Don't even think that the current TrashCan Pro (TCP) is any comparison to the vid that I referenced with Origin PC's top of the line vid. Any PC that can handle 2 x E5-2699v3's and 4 x Titan Z's will KILL any current or future TCP when it comes to rendering power. The problem will always be size. There is absolutely no way that you can fit all of that hardware in a TCP. Using a TCP type PC case to fit only a few parts, you're going to sacrifice performance, and there's (right now) no way around that. I can tell you first hand with using both types of machines, I would rather use the new setup that I purchased to put together than use Apple's TCP; even if you can't lift a 80+lbs PC from the plastic top and you have to lift it from the bottom. By the way, there are many other types of cases that you can purchase that don't have a plastic shell; some have solid aluminum shells. Just to let you know that everything else within that PC case is made of solid steel and I can also tell you that PC case is very solid. Again, I'm disappointed with Apple's decision to continue using AMD and not nVidia and not using a Dual CPU setup in their written code. For an anal guy as yourself you should do some more research when it comes to rendering powerhouse PC's compared to the TCP. I'm done talking about this.
 
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Those Xeon 1500 v5 came to disrupt once again the lineup of Intel.

Not really. The Xeon E3 1200 v4 series came out this June

http://www.cpu-world.com/news_2015/...Broadwell_desktop_mobile_and_server_CPUs.html

http://ark.intel.com/products/series/87729/Intel-Xeon-Processor-E3-1200-v4-Product-Family#@All

And haven't been replaced yet. The E3 1500M v5 is not a replacement. It is an incremental expansion of the category. the x5xx (2nd digit) is indicative that this is an different socket.


E3 v4 was late. That is primarily because E3 v3 came out in June 2013 and "refreshed" in May 2014. That is a two year gap on what has historically been a ~12 month cycle.


However, it might either indicate that Broadwell is indeed dead and Skylake 1600 v5 will be coming sooner than expected (that would be great, hopefully this is the case)

In contrast, Xeon E5 1600 v3 just came out less than 12 months ago. It hasn't even been a year (almost there in a couple of weeks but this is a substantially different context )

http://www.cpu-world.com/news_2014/...uces_Xeon_E5-1600_v3_and_E5-2600_v3_CPUs.html


Intel is going to 'skip' v4 because it has been tooooo long since the release of v3? The normal Xeon E5 upgrade cycles has been around 18 months (more than a year). It has been a slower pace than the laptop/desktop mainstream baseline design. That has been the case for the last 4-5 years.



or it's not even remotely related to 1600 series and we get our hopes up and it will be another disappointment, another year+ of waiting.

another year for v5? well yeah because this is actually the window where v4 would release if Intel follows their historical pattern with Xeon E5 class products.

Right now I'd say the 1500 and 1600 are somewhat related, and maybe the launch now is a test in the mobile platform for the WS portfolio to come.

'Mobile first' wouldn't be new for Intel. The E3 1200 v5 line up may not show up for several months. E3 v4 is giong to be short but it hasn't been superseded yet.

E3 1500 and E5 16000 aren't tightly coupled. Dropping the Ex prefix is a bit of a stretch to expand commonality where it really isn't there.

Still, nothing in Intel roadmaps hints at the 1600 coming sooner - although there was no indication of the 1500 as well.

Intel adding "server" atom products to the line up ( Avoton ). the Xeon-D addition. Intel has added a couple of lower power "higher cost" enterprise products to their line up over the last couple of years.

One thing seems pretty sure, the 1500 will not find their way into the MacPro, I don't think they'll come down from the 1600 series Xeons anytime.
Maybe they'll have an iMac Pro with the 1500, or even the MacBook Pro 17" again with it. But unlikely.

Unlikely. Apple's iMac Pro seems clearly to be filled in the short term by the 5K version. Once the whole iMac line up goes Retina and the prices fall Apple may eventually put something else in iMac - Mac Pro price gap. I don't think they are in a hurry to do so. Besides the iMac is firmly on desktop chips now. My guess is after mania over 5K dies down the 8K mania will pick up. That will be the gap filler when the mobile GPUs can better deal with that "drama".

MBP 17" ... unlikely. "more pixels" is being attacked through pixel density; not adding weight to the laptop chassis. Apple selling a 5lb laptop is not in the cards. A 6K 15.4" panel is more likely. It is a bit odd though that the 2012 13" model is still hanging around.[/quote][/quote]
 
Unlikely. Apple's iMac Pro seems clearly to be filled in the short term by the 5K version. Once the whole iMac line up goes Retina and the prices fall Apple may eventually put something else in iMac - Mac Pro price gap. I don't think they are in a hurry to do so. Besides the iMac is firmly on desktop chips now. My guess is after mania over 5K dies down the 8K mania will pick up. That will be the gap filler when the mobile GPUs can better deal with that "drama".
I would love to see something like a "Mac Mini Pro" fill the price gap between the iMac and the Mac Pro. Use some sort of thermal core like design, skylake core i7 CPU, AMD Fury nano like GPU, SSD and external 5k retina display and you have a really nice machine that could be priced around $2000-$2500. Unfortunately Apple hasn't been motivated enough to introduce a machine like this before, and is unlikely to start now.
 
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