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Will there be a new Mac Pro in 2015?
- Thread starter Anto38x
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With Xeon E5s we’ve had some pretty substantial increases in performance the last few years. Intel’s priority on lower power on the consumer end has bled over to allowed for more cores to be packed into these Xeon chips and for frequencies to keep edging up at the same time. For instance the 2660 has gone from a 8 core at 2.2GHz, to a 8 core at 2.6GHz, to now a 10 core at 2.6GHz. Along with about 5% performance increase per cycle, that gives the v3 about 60% more throughput than the v1. There have also been improvements in the top turbo bins with only a 1 or 2 cores active, allowing for this monster 10+ core CPUs to act most like the 4-6 core high clock rate CPUs when that is all that is being ask of them.
Lets just say that’s true for a second, it also assuming we have to choose between 2 GPUs or 2 CPUs. One could easily have both in a different form factor. And I’m not sure 2 GPUs is more flexible. In the scientific software I use CPU threads and RAM are still the primary limitation. But that’s just me. All you photo/video folks might have different limitations, but then, that’s just YOU.
Things are looking up.
Embedded Full Tonga at up to 95W with 8GB (256b) coming up. That's cool!!
Maybe this will show up inside the next nMP.
3TFlops at FP32.
Available in MXM form factor, slapping it onto the custom nMP board should be a breeze.
Still, the full embedded lineup is again using some old GPUs, apart from Tonga of course.
Embedded Full Tonga at up to 95W with 8GB (256b) coming up. That's cool!!
Maybe this will show up inside the next nMP.
3TFlops at FP32.
Available in MXM form factor, slapping it onto the custom nMP board should be a breeze.
Still, the full embedded lineup is again using some old GPUs, apart from Tonga of course.
Guys, Im not arguing with use and value from your perspectives. Im just trying to show you that the problem is in the middle. Applications were designed for where we were(cMP and dual CPU solutions), and now more and more software goes where we are heading(OpenCL compute capabilities of Dual GPU solutions designed for Asynchronous Compute).
First gen Mac Pro was really a stop-gap solution. First glimpse, if you will. And shows where we are heading regardless we like the future or not.
Manuel, that 3 TFLOPs suggest that the core clock for the GPU is 725 MHz.
First gen Mac Pro was really a stop-gap solution. First glimpse, if you will. And shows where we are heading regardless we like the future or not.
Manuel, that 3 TFLOPs suggest that the core clock for the GPU is 725 MHz.
Yep, that should be it. It still leaves some margin to pump up on the (possible) nMP version.
The big whinging point on here is that you can't upgrade it much. Who cares. It's a workstation. It should be efficient and work well all the time.
For me it does and it paid for itself in about 1-2 weeks on 1 job. Do I want to use windows, no. Do I wan't to open up boxes and swap bits in and out no. I am a designer and animator and have zero interest in that and most people I know who use computers are the same. So many Workstations - mac or PC in studios all round the world have stock spec cards and memory in them and are never upgraded at all, and if they are it might be that extra Ram stick or 1tb hard drive... when it's much better to have usable fast external shared storage that's properly backed up.
The whole point of these is they don't need constant fiddling, driver fixes and all the other crap that comes with windows.. I have PC that boots up 1 minute after it's shut down. For no reason. Nothing in the logs or anything.
So When the next nMP comes out. I'll buy it and sell this one - still great resale value. But it doesn't matter because it's all tax deductible because it's workstation. The main person on here seems to make a very good living from hacking PC vid cards to be Mac ones and it's really annoyed him when in fact should be looking at the Possibilities of eGPUs.
For me it does and it paid for itself in about 1-2 weeks on 1 job. Do I want to use windows, no. Do I wan't to open up boxes and swap bits in and out no. I am a designer and animator and have zero interest in that and most people I know who use computers are the same. So many Workstations - mac or PC in studios all round the world have stock spec cards and memory in them and are never upgraded at all, and if they are it might be that extra Ram stick or 1tb hard drive... when it's much better to have usable fast external shared storage that's properly backed up.
The whole point of these is they don't need constant fiddling, driver fixes and all the other crap that comes with windows.. I have PC that boots up 1 minute after it's shut down. For no reason. Nothing in the logs or anything.
So When the next nMP comes out. I'll buy it and sell this one - still great resale value. But it doesn't matter because it's all tax deductible because it's workstation. The main person on here seems to make a very good living from hacking PC vid cards to be Mac ones and it's really annoyed him when in fact should be looking at the Possibilities of eGPUs.
For those who really appreciate the stability and reliability of a true workstation the nMP seems great indeed. That's me and you and a couple more guys here.
Some others are looking for the bang for the buck, or to make a buck out of "side" services. Those tend to complain about the almost no upgrade path.
Do I want to keep swapping parts? Not anymore thank you. Done that, been there.
At the current pace, performance doesn't climb all that fast.
It's a bit of a disposable way, but I'd rather buy a new machine every couple of years (maybe 3-4 or even 5 years even) and sell the "old" one, then keep extending the lifetime of an older machine.
Anyway, you don't always "just" replace the GPU or CPU, every 2 years or so you need to revamp the whole machine anyway, since new stuff keeps coming up.
If it's not DDR4, it's PCIe4, or NVMe, or AVX512 or whatever. So, you never change only one component, almost always you keep only the case and not much more. It would be almost the cost of a new computer really. And it's new, with warranty and support from the manufacturer.
Wanna stick an hacked GPU in there? If it goes bad on you, does it have warranty? Will you swap the old card back and whine at Apple about it if your Mac goes berserk because of it? Is that PROfessional conduct?
I'm still not sure why some people who bought one (nMP) and keep complaining about it but still have it after all this time. If sold, maybe the money would be enough for an HP Z that would look great under the desk. No more complaining from there and we'd all live much quieter lives.
Mystery I guess.
Some others are looking for the bang for the buck, or to make a buck out of "side" services. Those tend to complain about the almost no upgrade path.
Do I want to keep swapping parts? Not anymore thank you. Done that, been there.
At the current pace, performance doesn't climb all that fast.
It's a bit of a disposable way, but I'd rather buy a new machine every couple of years (maybe 3-4 or even 5 years even) and sell the "old" one, then keep extending the lifetime of an older machine.
Anyway, you don't always "just" replace the GPU or CPU, every 2 years or so you need to revamp the whole machine anyway, since new stuff keeps coming up.
If it's not DDR4, it's PCIe4, or NVMe, or AVX512 or whatever. So, you never change only one component, almost always you keep only the case and not much more. It would be almost the cost of a new computer really. And it's new, with warranty and support from the manufacturer.
Wanna stick an hacked GPU in there? If it goes bad on you, does it have warranty? Will you swap the old card back and whine at Apple about it if your Mac goes berserk because of it? Is that PROfessional conduct?
I'm still not sure why some people who bought one (nMP) and keep complaining about it but still have it after all this time. If sold, maybe the money would be enough for an HP Z that would look great under the desk. No more complaining from there and we'd all live much quieter lives.
Mystery I guess.
I'm also curious if the people that keep complaining about the outdated GPUs really need all that GPU power so to be willing to change GPUs with every new family coming out. Will you go for the new to come NVidia dual GM200? Or the Dual Fiji? On your cMPs of course, since the nMP will not handle it as probably some will complain about also.
There are those that really need it for work, but those will probably resort to render farms if the work demands it. The ones that need it but not that much will have to stick to the high end option for now. The others that just "need" it for something, well...
People should of course talk about what they want or need, but not like this - spitting on a perfectly nice machine just because it doesn't fit their needs anymore. It's the way Apple envisions it and we have to deal with it.
And don't come telling me that we shouldn't take it as Apple gives it to us. Well, there are many complains and where did that get us?
Just fighting over it with each other.
There are those that really need it for work, but those will probably resort to render farms if the work demands it. The ones that need it but not that much will have to stick to the high end option for now. The others that just "need" it for something, well...
People should of course talk about what they want or need, but not like this - spitting on a perfectly nice machine just because it doesn't fit their needs anymore. It's the way Apple envisions it and we have to deal with it.
And don't come telling me that we shouldn't take it as Apple gives it to us. Well, there are many complains and where did that get us?
Just fighting over it with each other.
Wish Apple had gone with a modular design like these:
http://9to5mac.com/2012/09/26/stackable-interlocking-macpro-design-concept/
Would be an amazing workstation. Could easily see droves of people jumping ship from Dell, Lenovo and HP for those.
Economically viable for Apple too, as user needs expanded they could keep riding the gravy train by buying more modules.
http://9to5mac.com/2012/09/26/stackable-interlocking-macpro-design-concept/
Would be an amazing workstation. Could easily see droves of people jumping ship from Dell, Lenovo and HP for those.
Economically viable for Apple too, as user needs expanded they could keep riding the gravy train by buying more modules.
When the nMP was first introduced, I remember reading somewhere that Apple had user data showing that the majority of the cMP's were never upgraded. I wish I could dig up that article.
I'd be really skeptical of such a claim and would want to see their raw data and how they gathered it.
Wonder if their definition of "upgrade" is "haul machine into Apple Store and have Genius Bar install RAM at 2x markup"
Wouldn't be surprised if it were their, "If it wasn't Apple-sanctioned it then it doesn't count" attitude at play.
Someone who bought a cMP but never took advantage of its expansion options might as well have gotten a Mac Mini.
You have a point on what is meant by "upgrade". Lots of cMP owners upgraded RAM and added drives.
However, the heart of what zephonic suggested is indeed true. The percentage of users who added expansion cards or upgraded the video card is very low. That goes for all computers, workstations, etc.
Aside from the GPUs, pretty much anything that would be used for an expansion slot is taken care of by TB/USB on the nMP.
Apple wants to sell lots of computers. If expansion slots sold lots of computers, Apple would build computers with expansion slots. Expansion slots do not sell lots of computers. Apple no longer makes computers with expansion slots.
I stopped jailbreaking my Iphone ages ago because Apple eventually implemented all the important "hacks" I wanted in iOS. Its phones more or less stayed up spec (hw) wise as well. Somebody was watching and listening at Apple. Why they have chosen the other path (especially graphics) in OSX bewilders me. Blah,blah power envelope blah blah, aside. You all sit in a power sucking air conditioned or heated environment with all the lights switched on at work or home and you blab on about a few extra watts that your pc uses. Lots of you guys are hypocrites. And to stick 2 year old tech (now almost 4) in a brand new computer and flog it off at a premium price is just plain wrong. You have to be a true believer to think the nMP will get an upgrade. Methinks its dead in the water.
There, I said it!
There, I said it!
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we must be extremely careful in purchase timing when memory, GPU and instruction set undergo tremendous changes.
for example, it is not uncommon that Intel takes a toothpaste approach to rollout Xeon instruction, first integer AVX512, then floating point, then Fused multiply add FMA...
Another complication is they start tuning the chips down with AVX clock, which is much lower than the specs.
together with only a single digit YoY performance increase, one'd better skip rather than upgrade every generation.
Yep, nice that they aren't letting
I still don't get how that concept would work, unless each modular component had another power supply. Also, it appears the artist punted on the question of how the hell you enclose it (I guess you'd need a bunch more doors/door latches to get at the interior.
This was pretty common back in the 80s. In modern times there is no 'constant fiddling' needed.
Yes, things have greatly improved over time.
Still, due to the vast configuration options possible on the PCs, the number of potential problems rises.
But things are much better these days.
With OS X it's more of a controlled environment, which is also what makes it appealing. Although some people still enjoy the DIY stuff, with Apple this is not so easy. But if it was, we'd be on the same bandwagon as the PCs.
Even if some say that it's just a matter of tweaking the EFI.
Still, due to the vast configuration options possible on the PCs, the number of potential problems rises.
But things are much better these days.
With OS X it's more of a controlled environment, which is also what makes it appealing. Although some people still enjoy the DIY stuff, with Apple this is not so easy. But if it was, we'd be on the same bandwagon as the PCs.
Even if some say that it's just a matter of tweaking the EFI.
You could stack up modules and have sort of a common power rail that would be present in all modules and that would come from the PS below and snap in with each module you'd connect.
Not very practical though, the rail would have to be sized according to the max power of the most power hungry config. You might need to go for the higher power PS at first, or risk having to exchange it if you needed more power when adding modules.
It doesn't look Apple like, too flexible system for Apple I'd say.
This is more something one of the top Taiwan PC manufacturers would go for.
Not very practical though, the rail would have to be sized according to the max power of the most power hungry config. You might need to go for the higher power PS at first, or risk having to exchange it if you needed more power when adding modules.
It doesn't look Apple like, too flexible system for Apple I'd say.
This is more something one of the top Taiwan PC manufacturers would go for.
Hardware related problem due to multiple configuration available on PC hasn't been a problem for many year. In fact the Mac isn't immune to them and has as many as the PC side does. After all, both use the same hardware plateform now. In fact Apple is on the slow side to correct drivers related problem.
Also, a controlled environment only get you so far... It is only helpful if all that you need to do exist inside that walled garden. In fact, the popularity of bootcamp tends to shoot that argument out of the water. If you are forced to boot windows on a mac to work or play then the close ecosystem as failed...
I have said it in another thread and I will say it here, If there was an xMac that made upgrading graphics as easy as PCS for gaming (develepor support would come because of this) Apple would have Windows by the balls, why they choose to ignore this has got me stuffed. Its that simple!
Certainly a lot of people. If you click "views" in the Mac Pro forum to sort threads by most views, you will see a staggering amount of activity here is related to upgrading. It adds up to the multi-millions. Upgrade threads are among the most popular posts here.
From running OS X on unsupported computers, to swapping CPU/GPU/memory/drives, and even updating standards and features (USB 3.x, 802.11AC, Bluetooth 4.0, Continuity, Handoff) there are clearly many, many people that like to change their computer from stock.
Perhaps upgraders are the minority. Heck, I'm willing to concede that even though I don't think there's a way to prove that one way or the other. But regardless, just on the MR forums alone, there are a huge number of people that care about changing their computer from stock.
So "who cares"? Well, a lot of us do.
I like the cut of your jib, Sir.
To be fair, I work from my home office without air conditioning (mostly just fans in the Summer), and I use a space heater in Winter. Still, I have wondered why power consumption is of such vital importance in a tool that is often used in close proximity to many other devices with no such concerns. I know power is expensive in places, but the amount saved by a few less watts is very difficult to discern in many offices with so many devices spinning and whirring.
As I get older I am increasingly of the opinion that "Going Green" is more about good feelings than real actions, but that's something for another thread, no doubt.
Still, how much powerful would the Mac Pro be if there were no over-riding concern to reduce power consumption? I suspect they'd have more powerful GPU's for one thing.
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