Will there ever be a new large iMac (Pro)?

[askunk]

My fear is just to find Navi10 inside the iMacs. But perhaps it is going to happen for the base configs of the 21/23", if they will be present at all.

I agree, Navi 22 and 23 will be dedicated to the iMP and MP.

Re the date, it is very likely to be September/early October, given they want to launch the consoles later and they still need time to get them on the shelves by black Fri and the holiday shopping.

 

[CWallace]

So for AMD, the lower the number the more powerful the GPU. As such, Navi 23 is the replacement for Navi 10 (5700XT), which means it should work in the 27" iMac.

This would mean Navi 22 is likely something we would see in an iMac Pro to replace the Vega 56X/64X and Navi 21 will be the "beast" chip to replace the Radeon Pro Vega and Vega II at the top end of the Mac Pro cards.

 

[askunk]

I got them the other way round. Thanks
[automerge]1591474927[/automerge]
what would you reckon the IPC gain will be? It seems Lisa Su has stated it will be a huge leap... but that's how marketing goes.

 

[sublunar]

I expect Apple continued to use 8th generation on the low-end because they were cheaper so they could hit those price points. Assuming Intel drops the 9th generation parts to similar pricing, they will likely become the standard for the i5s on the 23" (and maybe 27") with 10th generation being i7 and i9 BTO upgrades.

The 21.5" model uses 65W Coffee Lake parts so they should be able to handle 65W Comet Lake.

10th generation requires a new motherboard and probably a better cooling system if the case has to cope with '95w' TDP parts which seem to steam on past 125w - basically iMac Pro territory.

By contrast the 8th and 9th generation Coffee Lake/Coffee Lake Refresh parts are slot in replacements on the same (existing) Coffee Lake motherboard so an easy replacement - if that's what Apple wants to do.

Because Apple can't just reuse the iMac Pro case for the iMac 21.5" there's scope for Apple to do a light touch refresh on the 21.5" only - go to 9th generation CPUs - and then do something more expansive with the 27" iMac which could go Comet Lake.

So we could be looking at a split in processor families until the 23" comes into the picture.

Per AMD, "Big Navi" / RDNA 2.0 is not expected until late 2020 which would mean it is something Apple will use for the iMac Pro refresh (also expected in late 2020) and the Mac Pro (via new PCI cards). Especially if "Big Navi" has TDPs over the 250W mark.

As such, I still think we will see RDNA 1.0 Navi 10 in the 27" and Navi 14 in the 23" - I am guessing desktop chips, but underclocked by around 10% to keep the TDPs within acceptable margins (like we see on the current 570/580 series).

Fair assessment there, I can't see RDNA 2 being priced to go into the iMac this year - only top SKUs for soft launch and halo effect on PCs while everyone is talking about next gen consoles.

 

[Mr. Warbles]

Re the date, it is very likely to be September/early October, given they want to launch the consoles later and they still need time to get them on the shelves by black Fri and the holiday shopping.

but don’t you think September is when they mostly focus on new iPhones/iPads? I would think that would be the focus for Black Friday/holidays not higher priced desktops.

 

[DrRadon]

Ea had a event were they would announce new games. They pushed it back to the 18th by one week. Somit suppose consens is growing that next week also is not working out if you want your announcement talked about. if Everyone feels like that it’s pretty much wwdc no matter if redesign or not. Unless they desperately don’t want it at wwdc and delay it another two weeks till after the event.

 

[krell100]

I'd say the odds of a new iMac this year are diminishing. There's a small chance of a spec bump maybe but that just doesn't seem to be a big news item so why would they announce it at WWDC? The reaction to a spec bump would be a sigh, not a cheer. Everything seems to be pointing at 2021 IMO.

 

[iPadified]

I'd say the odds of a new iMac this year are diminishing. There's a small chance of a spec bump maybe but that just doesn't seem to be a big news item so why would they announce it at WWDC? The reaction to a spec bump would be a sigh, not a cheer. Everything seems to be pointing at 2021 IMO.

Do you mean a new design? I think Apple do not have a choice if they are going to use comet lake CPU and latest AMD for the spec bump. Cannot see what else would constitute a spec bump. iMac Pro case plus 10900(k) plus a 5700(XT) would be a significant and welcome change. Cooling is far more important than bezel size. They are not going to show an iMac with no redesign at WWDC.

There are also poor availability of 27 inch and too many rumours points to an update in some way. They will probably not update the 21.5 inch now but will let it be as is until the 23 inch is ready. MBP 13 and 16 was treated differently and so could the iMac.

 

[DrRadon]

There's a small chance of a spec bump maybe but that just doesn't seem to be a big news item so why would they announce it at WWDC?

Because Covid prevented the event in March and a possible release last Wednesday was made impossible due to the black lives matter movement going big.

 

[Icaras]

The more time passes the more I'm getting pissed off with Apple for their lack of innovation. The specs on the iMac are truly awful and insulting to the customers. No SSD and only 8GB default is just shocking. It would be ok if the product was half price but for the price tag they are out of their minds.
Is Apple getting out of touch with reality? Or they just don't care and simply charge massive premium as they feel they can get away with it?

WWDC.

Patience.

 

[askunk]

but don’t you think September is when they mostly focus on new iPhones/iPads? I would think that would be the focus for Black Friday/holidays not higher priced desktops.

I was referring to AMD's keynote. I think there is a good chance Apple will at least announce the iMacs at the WWDC but very likely the machine will be available by the end of August, which gives time to stock some initial GPUs from AMD.

However, it has happened in the past that Apple introduced new Macs along with the phone. (otherwise, the usual slot is October)

We will need to get closer to the date (AMD's) to understand whether they will introduce just the Big Navi (21 ) card or at least the refreshed RDNA (23/24 best candidates so far for the iMacs). I think we will need to wait for January to see RDNA2's low- and mid-end cards, therefore it may be that the best an iMac can expect is a refreshed 5700XT in its high-end 27/X" model.

I would be satisfied with this high-end config:

500 nits (perhaps 650 for better HDR?) 5K screen
1080p webcam
4 mics with NC
(whishlist: FaceID and a new mouse)
Dolby Atmos improved speakers
Hey Siri support
BT 5.0/51
Wifi 6

i9 10c/20t 10900K 3.7/5.3(#youwish) GHz 20MB cache
DDR4 2933 MHz 40/32 GB (if there is/isn't a RAM door available)
T2/T3 chip
Refreshed 5700 XT 8GB GDDR6 (around 11 Tflops?)
2 TB SSD
10 Gbit/s Ethernet
2/4 TB3 ports (also USB4 and USB-C @20Gbps?)
2 USBA ports
1 audio out port (wishlist: bring back the optical output!)
(I honestly couldn't care less to have an SD reader on the back, it's so annoying to use)

I might wait for the IMP to see what happens with their base one to see what would be better for me.

I could invest up to 1000£ more to my 4500£ budget if I had an IMP like this:

500 nits (650) 5K screen
120 Hz ProMotion?
1080p/4K webcam
4 mics with NC
Dolby Atmos improved speakers
Hey Siri support
BT 5.0/51
Wifi 6

Xeon W2245/55 10c/12c 3.5/4.7 GHz 19.25MB cache
ECC DDR4 2933 MHz 32 GB (#bringbackthedoor)
T2/T3 chip
RDNA2 12GB GDDR6 (around 13/14 Tflops?)
2 TB SSD RAID0
10 Gbit/s Ethernet
4 TB3 ports
2 USBA ports
1 audio out port

The two ways Apple could stab me would be:

* keeping the same bezels (I can accept for the rest of the design to stay the same)
* removing the RAM door

but I would buy it anyway. I just need a new computer, after 8 years spent keeping the old one to wait for a new MP.

 

[sublunar]

I was referring to AMD's keynote. I think there is a good chance Apple will at least announce the iMacs at the WWDC but very likely the machine will be available by the end of August, which gives time to stock some initial GPUs from AMD.

However, it has happened in the past that Apple introduced new Macs along with the phone. (otherwise, the usual slot is October)

We will need to get closer to the date (AMD's) to understand whether they will introduce just the Big Navi (21 ) card or at least the refreshed RDNA (23/24 best candidates so far for the iMacs). I think we will need to wait for January to see RDNA2's low- and mid-end cards, therefore it may be that the best an iMac can expect is a refreshed 5700XT in its high-end 27/X" model.

Given the number of tech events being postponed due to current events on the streets I'd imagine that if iMac release plans were for pre-WWDC they might have reverted to a a filmed insert for release during WWDC, or even postponed it until after WWDC. I vaguely recall occasional updates being released shortly after WWDC in the past.

Availability of stock MacBook Pro 13" models vary between UK and US Apple stores so it's possible there are still constraints in the supply chain for the literally bigger Macs.

I'd be concerned if mass manufacturing had already started on the iMacs - we've already gone months past the Mac mini 'update' launch so the chances of the 27" being a storage bump are surely receding.

 

[askunk]

Sure, I personally think that the most likely scenario is that we will see an October presentation, but if it's before, it may well be the WWDC. I didn't express myself properly, sorry. I meant that in case they introduce the iMacs at the WWDC, they wouldn't be able to deliver it before at least the end of August, just because the GPUs wouldn't be ready.

I agree with you that the rumour about iMacs lying in warehouses ready to be shipped was pretty much wrong.

In China, all factories are resuming operations and full capacity. There has been a 1-2 months lag at most. *IF* they are assembling an iMac at the moment, they were aware they had to wait for the new GPUs unless - of course - they want to sell one-year-old hw.

 

[krell100]

According to the poll 40.6% think 2021 for a redesigned iMac, not that it makes them right but its an interesting consensus. 31.4% think 3rd or 4th quarter.

What about a scenario where they give a "sneak peak" at WWDC but then orders start December; thats pretty much what they did with the 6,1 and 7,1 Mac Pro..? That would mean actual orders arriving Feb-Mar 2021.

 

[iPadified]

According to the poll 40.6% think 2021 for a redesigned iMac, not that it makes them right but its an interesting consensus. 31.4% think 3rd or 4th quarter.

What about a scenario where they give a "sneak peak" at WWDC but then orders start December; thats pretty much what they did with the 6,1 and 7,1 Mac Pro..? That would mean actual orders arriving Feb-Mar 2021.

6,1 and 7,1 (and iMac Pro) were exceptions as at the time 5,1 was not allow to be sold in the EU (something about safety). The 7,1 and iMac Pro were new products (alright 7,1 replaced 6,1 but the format was so different so it could be called a new product). These are also low volume products. Sneak peak an iMac now, and it will kill sells in nearly a 10 months.

I do not know if 40% translate to consensus, it is not even a majority. You can also say that 60% thinks if arrives earlier so if we vote, the majority think it arrives in 2020.

 

[krell100]

Well we can discount the 4th QTR 2019, 1st and 2nd QTR 2020 so really its 2021 by a nose

 

[iPadified]

Sure, I personally think that the most likely scenario is that we will see an October presentation, but if it's before, it may well be the WWDC. I didn't express myself properly, sorry. I meant that in case they introduce the iMacs at the WWDC, they wouldn't be able to deliver it before at least the end of August, just because the GPUs wouldn't be ready.

I agree with you that the rumour about iMacs lying in warehouses ready to be shipped was pretty much wrong.

In China, all factories are resuming operations and full capacity. There has been a 1-2 months lag at most. *IF* they are assembling an iMac at the moment, they were aware they had to wait for the new GPUs unless - of course - they want to sell one-year-old hw.

I do not say you are wrong about an autumn release but it is less than clear what is going on.
Where is the evidence that the GPU is delayed?
"Ready to ship" does not necessarily translate to the iMac being in the warehouses in my view.
If China is in full capacity again, can you also explain why the 27 still is not readily available? The iMac Pro delivery time got shorter while the iMac 27 did not. That was weeks ago. Still many unknowns.
[automerge]1591535673[/automerge]

Well we can discount the 4th QTR 2019, 1st and 2nd QTR 2020 so really its 2021 by a nose

I think you need to ask the late 2019 and early 2020 voters again for a valid poll. Subtracting them is not correct. I guess WWDC.

 

[sublunar]

According to the poll 40.6% think 2021 for a redesigned iMac, not that it makes them right but its an interesting consensus. 31.4% think 3rd or 4th quarter.

What about a scenario where they give a "sneak peak" at WWDC but then orders start December; thats pretty much what they did with the 6,1 and 7,1 Mac Pro..? That would mean actual orders arriving Feb-Mar 2021.

Osborne Effect says hard no to that. The 5,1 (Late 2012 Mac Pro) was discontinued because of a safety regulation in the EU that banned the exposed fans in the Mac Pro case.

The nMac Pro 6,1 came after that but was priced completely out of the scope of the by then fully discontinued 2012 model. If I recall that was announced at WWDC13 and shipped by the end of the year. I thought at the time that the 2012 Mac Pro was too high priced for out of date equipment (it was a slot in CPU upgrade from the 2010 whose CPUs had been discontinued - mirroring what is likely to happen this year with Coffee Lake).

The 2013 went into the realms of overpriced nonsense with poverty spec storage and RAM as standard for a too high price with dual GPUs that not many people would use.

The Mac mini 2012 on the other hand became a much moved machine for many despite the loss of the dGPU from one of the 2011 SKUs. I got my 2012 as a refurb when the 2014 came out.

Back on topic, though, and Apple will probably leave the existing iMac models to limp on until replaced because their replacements will probably take up the same price point. There will be no warning of replacement but we can and will speculate on likely dates although the 2 ongoing crises will have a say in the matter.

Do we recall the almost 2 year gap between Skylake (October 2015) and Kaby Lake (June 2017) models? In the UK the 2015 iMacs even had a massive 20 percent price increase in October of 2016 thanks to exchange rate collapse following the Brexit vote - just when I was expecting some sort of refresh instead.

That delay may have been down to Intel being tardy with the CPUs though as Kaby Lake was launched in Q1 2017. Or perhaps Apple were busy engineering the Butterfly Keyboard and Touch Bar.

Either way they weren't busy on making a new Mac mini after 2014... ?

What exactly was the delay behind the 2019 iMac then? Coffee Lake CPUs had been out since Q2 2018, almost a full year before Apple got them into an iMac. The 2018 Mac mini got launched in October when the iMac might have expected a refresh - and instead waited a further 6 months making it seem like iMacs were on an 18 month cycle.

By this time the Coffee Lake Refresh models were starting to appear - and the conclusion from that is that Apple were not happy with the choice of top SKU 8th generation CPUs - the i7-9700 didn't appear until Q4 2018, and by that time Apple could pick the 8 core 16 thread i9-9900K instead (and corresponding i5-9600K).

If they had waited a few months longer the lower SKU 9th generation Coffee Lake Refresh CPUs would have become available in Q2 2019.

On the 18 month cycle it's reasonable to wait for the iMac to get an October 2020 update, just as the Mac mini could have waited till the same slot but got a storage bump early.

 

[jjDevt]

I have been reading this thread for quite a while now and decided to create an account. I think, we can agree the situation is not very clear. you have leakers in march talking about ready to ship, which to me, would have been a strong sign for a spec bump. on the other hand you have the Gurman report about the 23inch and l0vetodream tweeting about something being re-designed for WWDC, which could mean a lot of things. Shipping times of the 27inch iMac versus the LG 5k Ultrafine also lead me to believe, something will happen very soon.

if I had to bet, I would put my money on re-designs only coming with ARM next year. I hope, I am wrong.

 

[Azrael9]

NVIDIA GeForce RTX 3080 pictured? - VideoCardz.com

NVIDIA GeForce RTX 3080 pictured? Alleged pictures of the upcoming GeForce RTX 3080 graphics cards have been leaked on Chiphell. The models photographed by a leaker are clearly prototypes or engineering samples likely to be one of the many suggested designs for the final choice. The design does...

videocardz.com

Nvidia showing no signs of letting up. 2-3 months incoming?

Timed around the same time as the RDNA2 Big Navi launch?

The good news is that Radeon will have to compete (and are doing so.)

That's good news for iMacs. Eventually.

Azrael.

 

[gusping]

NVIDIA GeForce RTX 3080 pictured? - VideoCardz.com

NVIDIA GeForce RTX 3080 pictured? Alleged pictures of the upcoming GeForce RTX 3080 graphics cards have been leaked on Chiphell. The models photographed by a leaker are clearly prototypes or engineering samples likely to be one of the many suggested designs for the final choice. The design does...

videocardz.com

Nvidia showing no signs of letting up. 2-3 months incoming?

Timed around the same time as the RDNA2 Big Navi launch?

The good news is that Radeon will have to compete (and are doing so.)

That's good news for iMacs. Eventually.

Azrael.

In 2022, when the iMac includes an underclocked Big Navi....

 

[sublunar]

NVIDIA GeForce RTX 3080 pictured? - VideoCardz.com

NVIDIA GeForce RTX 3080 pictured? Alleged pictures of the upcoming GeForce RTX 3080 graphics cards have been leaked on Chiphell. The models photographed by a leaker are clearly prototypes or engineering samples likely to be one of the many suggested designs for the final choice. The design does...

videocardz.com

Nvidia showing no signs of letting up. 2-3 months incoming?

Timed around the same time as the RDNA2 Big Navi launch?

The good news is that Radeon will have to compete (and are doing so.)

That's good news for iMacs. Eventually.

Azrael.

After a few years of lagging Nvidia, yes AMD appear to have caught up. I read a few articles mentioning better performance from RDNA/RDNA2 GPUs thanks to the leap in architecture but that's been tempered by major driver issues this year so far that have hit both Mac and PC side of things. Driver issues can be fixed of course and the competition will indeed be good for a market that's been inflated in recent years by the crypto mining craze but could also be boosted by a next generation games surge as more people stay at home for entertainment in the next 18 months.

I think Apple have to get a piece of the action but people need to understand that it's the likes of Animal Crossing that probably piques their interest rather than Call of Duty.

RDNA2 aka 'Big Navi' appears to have Nvidia running for cover after a period of sitting on their laurels comfortable in their technological advantages.

And like Intel before them they haven't bargained on AMD catching up with them so fast which will leave 2021 as a very fertile battleground in CPU and GPU wars with AMD taking on Intel and Nvidia respectively.

As Mac users we have to root for AMD in the GPU side of things while it's fairly clear that Intel's lead in CPU appears to be shrinking fast as they wander down a Pentium 4-esque rabbit hole. You'd have to hope that Jim Keller has something up his sleeve to fix this.

 

[gusping]

I was referring to AMD's keynote. I think there is a good chance Apple will at least announce the iMacs at the WWDC but very likely the machine will be available by the end of August, which gives time to stock some initial GPUs from AMD.

However, it has happened in the past that Apple introduced new Macs along with the phone. (otherwise, the usual slot is October)

We will need to get closer to the date (AMD's) to understand whether they will introduce just the Big Navi (21 ) card or at least the refreshed RDNA (23/24 best candidates so far for the iMacs). I think we will need to wait for January to see RDNA2's low- and mid-end cards, therefore it may be that the best an iMac can expect is a refreshed 5700XT in its high-end 27/X" model.

I would be satisfied with this high-end config:

500 nits (perhaps 650 for better HDR?) 5K screen
1080p webcam
4 mics with NC
(whishlist: FaceID and a new mouse)
Dolby Atmos improved speakers
Hey Siri support
BT 5.0/51
Wifi 6

i9 10c/20t 10900K 3.7/5.3(#youwish) GHz 20MB cache
DDR4 2933 MHz 40/32 GB (if there is/isn't a RAM door available)
T2/T3 chip
Refreshed 5700 XT 8GB GDDR6 (around 11 Tflops?)
2 TB SSD
10 Gbit/s Ethernet
2/4 TB3 ports (also USB4 and USB-C @20Gbps?)
2 USBA ports
1 audio out port (wishlist: bring back the optical output!)
(I honestly couldn't care less to have an SD reader on the back, it's so annoying to use)

I might wait for the IMP to see what happens with their base one to see what would be better for me.

I wouldn't mind those specs... Although, it needs faster RAM!! Promotion is not happening on a 5K monitor. It just isn't worth it for creative folks, and would require a 2080 Ti to make it worth it.

 

[Azrael9]

I wouldn't bet against Jim Kellor sorting out Intel.

But that will take time, just as AMD had to go through the pain barrier. There's no immediate fix for Intel. Those Comet S cpus will probably be downclocked 10% ie pegged lower for the iMac. Same with any 5700 XT.

And by the time INtel have an answer, Apple's will have torpedoed their relationship with Intel in 2021 and be well under way to a complete transition.

Once iMacs and Macbooks are released on Mac ARM next year, Intel on Mac is over. The 'Mac' as we currently know it may be over.

And that might be a good thing. We'll have to wait and see.

Azrael.
[automerge]1591543331[/automerge]

I wouldn't mind those specs... Although, it needs faster RAM!! Promotion is not happening on a 5K monitor. It just isn't worth it for creative folks, and would require a 2080 Ti to make it worth it.

Promotion on iPad is a wonderous thing. I haven't been that impressed since the C64 got smooth scrolling in games by Tony Crowther and Jeff Minter.

As for when or if it comes to iMac?

I wouldn't bet against it. 'Eventually.' But not with this pending update. Though Apple did come up with their own (T1?) chip to help the timing(?) and powering of the iMac's 5k monitor? (I remember them talking about their work in the promo vid' or something...)

Promotion on 'Mac' will probably be a Mac ARM feature.

Azrael.

 

[Voyageur]

Even if today or in 2021 the first Mac with ARM will be presented, then devices such as MacBook Pro or iMac will continue to be released with Intel for next several years (minimal). This is a large segment of professionals who do not tolerate such changes. It will be a smooth transition.