Will there ever be a new large iMac (Pro)?

[iPadified]

"iPad Pro design language" will look very nice and likely being an XDR display with an iMac inside as has been discussed above. Not sure that the display will be a direct copy of the XDR design but likely tweaked. I am bit concerned about cooling point sources like a CPU in a flat design but let us see what Apple has come up with. Flat design would give room for some very good speakers at the sides like iPP has. Can we apple please get some really good microphones and a good camera?

There is no specification more than Navi GPU in the rumours. Looked up Mobile Navi for fun (wikipedia). It turns out the 5700M (180W) has 7.9 TFLOPS while desktop 5700XT has 8.2 (225W, base clock), no significant difference in my view. So a 25% increase in power give you only a 3.7% performance boost. So 5700M beats all desktop chips except 5700XT when desktop chip uses base clock. I am a bit taken back the "M" are so close to the desktop chips in terms of performance (well and power draw). Have I missed something?

 

[ryanbates]

I’m just REALLY hoping we get at least 27” or more and not just the rumored 23” or I might have to pass.

I really need a larger display for multitasking for work so it’s either this or building a PC.

 

[AAtte]

I would happily buy the last intel iMac as it would support Win 10 gaming and apps in bootcamp for many years. And when it is old, the ARM machine will be maybe hopefully ready to take its place.

 

[08kx250f]

I’m just REALLY hoping we get at least 27” or more and not just the rumored 23” or I might have to pass.

I really need a larger display for multitasking for work so it’s either this or building a PC.

I don't see how they could unveil a 23" and not a 27"

 

[DrRadon]

I don't see how they could unveil a 23" and not a 27"

27 inch has been sold out for nearly two weeks now.

 

[yellow_lupine]

I wonder if they will say anything about iMac Pro

 

[gusping]

I wonder if they will say anything about iMac Pro

“We are really happy to announce the new iMac Pro today, and we think you’re going to love it. It is still the iMac to purchase if you want your CPU and GPU to be sub-100 degrees, and now starts at a great price of £7,999”

 

[fokmik]

I wonder if they will say anything about iMac Pro

i think they will unify the line ....the imac pro specs will be offer for the larger imac....
- base 27 or 32" imac starting at around 2000$ lets say for normal 10th gen cpu
and can go BTO up to xeon
And that will be terrific for apple and for us, since they must offer their best thermals internals

 

[DrRadon]

I mentioned the idea of unifying the line a couple of times. Or just call the higher end models all iMac Pro and keep iMac for the 23 version. BUT unlike the 27 inch iMac the iMac Pro is well in stock everywhere and the update rummers were for the end of this year.
I asume marketing wise there might be a reason to have iMac prices end somewhere at 4000-5000€ and have a "different" product for the gap between iMac and MacPro.
Like, i feel good about the thought of maxing out the iMac, but if the iMac would include 6000€ machines as well i would be just somewhere in the middle specs wise, probably hesitant on what i want, what i actually need, would need to figure out processors and graphics cards... it dos not make my being process easier while right now it's:
consumer, 21.5 inch
consumer with a big screen -> lower Tier 27 Inch
great computer to do all kinds of work/gaming with -> higher tier 27 inch

and Finally iMacPro were someone literally would need to explain me what niche work i actually need it for.

 

[pldelisle]

and Finally iMacPro were someone literally would need to explain me what niche work i actually need it for.

If the price wasn't that high, I would have definitively picked one of these, with a 10 or 12 core CPU, 64 GB RAM. More cores, less time in crunching data, don't have to deploy on a server to make calculations, can do it locally... AVX-512... It's really for power users that know what they are doing and how to do it.

 

[Homy]

Dieter Bohn writes: "Windows offers a roadmap of where things could go awry for the Mac. Windows on ARM still has unacceptable compromises for most users when it comes to software compatibility and expectations. I say this as a person who walked into those compromises eyes wide open, buying a Surface Pro X. I essentially use it as a glorified Chromebook and it’s very good at being that thing, but there’s no way Apple would want that for its Mac users.

Speaking of things Apple wouldn’t want: ARM-based Windows computers are slower. Unless you’re able to stay within those Chromebook-esque constraints, things get real chuggy real fast. We’ve all been assuming that Apple’s much-vaunted prowess at making fast ARM chips for iPads will translate well to Macs, but there’s no guarantee that’s true until we get to test them ourselves.

Another thing I’ve learned is that using a Windows computer with an ARM processor actually requires a higher level of technical expertise, because you need to know what won’t work and why going in. Basically, 32-bit Windows apps can be emulated in ARM, but more modern 64-bit apps cannot. And short of Googling (or, uh, Binging) around for a decent chunk of time, it’s difficult to know if an app you need will work.

Yet another thing we can take away from Windows is the idea that ARM and Intel versions can co-exist. It’s within the realm of possibility that Apple intends to support both x86 and ARM based Mac for the foreseeable future instead of just managing a transition. Windows is sticking to a plan to support both x86 and ARM. When ARM-based laptops and tablets started getting released, the message was “Here’s a cool new thing you can get if you want, but the reliable old thing isn’t going anywhere.” That’s the Windows way. If Apple were to take that tack, it would mean a sigh of relief for everybody who needs to buy a Mac for the next year or three. But it would also mean another potential pitfall. Windows on ARM simply isn’t getting the developer attention and support that standard Windows gets.

If Apple goes the Windows route and declares that it has no plans to sunset x86 support, then it needs to ensure that both ARM and x86 Macs feel equally supported. If it goes the classic route and declares that the future of the Mac is on ARM, then it needs to assuage concerns that every Mac in existence right now will become obsolete before its time. Neither path is easy."

So let's stop speculating and patiently wait to see what Apple has to say on WWDC.

 

[MadCar]

Agree with the above a LOT of people use Macs that also use Windows. They might have a parallels solution to allow for the mix but going to ARM only processors will likely kill the need / want to stay with Mac and force them to go to Intel completely and windows only.

This is not all easy transmission. Yes the newer Apple only games will be great but what about cross platform gaming that an iMac gives you to an extent, that is going to be rather challenging to say the least.

 

[pldelisle]

I think gaming on macOS/Mac is the last worry of Apple. Just like running Windows on BootCamp. They will say "there is a windows on ARM. If it's bad, it's not our problem. It yours for using it."

 

[ssong]

Dieter Bohn writes: "Windows offers a roadmap of where things could go awry for the Mac. Windows on ARM still has unacceptable compromises for most users when it comes to software compatibility and expectations. I say this as a person who walked into those compromises eyes wide open, buying a Surface Pro X. I essentially use it as a glorified Chromebook and it’s very good at being that thing, but there’s no way Apple would want that for its Mac users.

Speaking of things Apple wouldn’t want: ARM-based Windows computers are slower. Unless you’re able to stay within those Chromebook-esque constraints, things get real chuggy real fast. We’ve all been assuming that Apple’s much-vaunted prowess at making fast ARM chips for iPads will translate well to Macs, but there’s no guarantee that’s true until we get to test them ourselves.

Another thing I’ve learned is that using a Windows computer with an ARM processor actually requires a higher level of technical expertise, because you need to know what won’t work and why going in. Basically, 32-bit Windows apps can be emulated in ARM, but more modern 64-bit apps cannot. And short of Googling (or, uh, Binging) around for a decent chunk of time, it’s difficult to know if an app you need will work.

Yet another thing we can take away from Windows is the idea that ARM and Intel versions can co-exist. It’s within the realm of possibility that Apple intends to support both x86 and ARM based Mac for the foreseeable future instead of just managing a transition. Windows is sticking to a plan to support both x86 and ARM. When ARM-based laptops and tablets started getting released, the message was “Here’s a cool new thing you can get if you want, but the reliable old thing isn’t going anywhere.” That’s the Windows way. If Apple were to take that tack, it would mean a sigh of relief for everybody who needs to buy a Mac for the next year or three. But it would also mean another potential pitfall. Windows on ARM simply isn’t getting the developer attention and support that standard Windows gets.

If Apple goes the Windows route and declares that it has no plans to sunset x86 support, then it needs to ensure that both ARM and x86 Macs feel equally supported. If it goes the classic route and declares that the future of the Mac is on ARM, then it needs to assuage concerns that every Mac in existence right now will become obsolete before its time. Neither path is easy."

I think the ARM based machines only go chuggy if you try to emulate x86 and that's why I think Apple won't emulate x86.

In a classic Apple fashion I think they've seen Windows try and fail over the last couple of years and will have made learnings and will come swooping in with a viable alternative. Surface Pro X isn't the first time MS tried ARM. I think the first ARM attempt was Windows RT way back in 2012 and since them MS has been flirting with the idea of a ARM based OS. So we're talking over 7-8 years worth of learnings to look back to.

The 2 main critical points for ARM to successfully replace x86 are:

1. Performance
I think compared to 7 years ago when smartphone market was just booming and ARM was becoming a bigger player, we now have far better hardware that can compete with x86 on a watt-on-watt competition. I honestly wouldn't be surprised if Axx chips released to iPhone and iPad are intentionally underpowered and in fact could be pushed to more extremes with active cooling. The recent Axx chips were performing on par or better than x86 chips on benchmarks, and while I understand benchmarks don't always mean better real world performance, we do need to remember that these chips are passively cooled.

If they can achieve such benchmark scores with optimised software on passive cooling and limited resources then I'd be intrigued to see what they can achieve on a desktop / laptop setting.

Performance for specific usecases like ML, Video, or just development in general. I really would love to see what Apple does with Xcode and FCPX on iPad OS if that materialises. I think we could be talking on par or better than the average mac desktop counterparts with less resources.

ML... I haven't been in ML for the last couple of years but I reckon a lot of the heavy computing tasks could be moved to the cloud and if anything the ARM chips may allow for more performant on device inferences in the same way they leverage Core ML on the Axx chips? Would love for others who are in the field to chime in on this bit.

2. Software
This is the tricky bit but the gradual influx of pushing the boundaries of what iPad OS can do (Like the introduction of the `dev` section in the App Store with some basic code editors etc. may have been Apple testing the waters to see what kind of performance expectations could be had. Played around with some swift / js IDEs and jupyter notebooks on iPad OS and they're not too bad TBH.

As for the software that the average user / professionals rely on... either Apple needs to make the transition butter smooth and has been having discussions with key industry partners or Apple needs to make a compelling case for macOS specific alternatives. I think they could go both ways tbh.

 

[ducknalddon]

I don't see it as a big problem for developers, just another switch in the build settings: "Include ARM build in bundle" or something like that.

My only fear is that Apple might make the App Store a requirement for targeting ARM.

From a user perspective if you keep your software up to date the it shouldn't be a problem. On the other hand if you have a lot of aged software then it isn't going to work out so well.

 

[gusping]

I think gaming on macOS/Mac is the last worry of Apple. Just like running Windows on BootCamp. They will say "there is a windows on ARM. If it's bad, it's not our problem. It yours for using it."

Completely agree. Other than Apple Arcade, which is built on ARM chips, they dont care at all about Mac gaming. End of. Everyone can have a far better experience buying a console or building a cheap PC.

 

[ssong]

My only fear is that Apple might make the App Store a requirement for targeting ARM.

I reckon they'd have to if they want to make security and privacy one of the main selling points for the ARM based machines and in a way this may have been the first step in getting devs used to a similar concept

Notarizing macOS software before distribution | Apple Developer Documentation

Give users even more confidence in your macOS software by submitting it to Apple for notarization.

developer.apple.com

But ultimately I think Apple's move to ARM is probably based on a lot of financial and practical factors but part of me also wants to believe that they want to expand the level of security and privacy enjoyed by users on iOS / iPadOS devices to macOS users as well. I reckon a move to Apple's own ARM chips would give them more power to lockdown APIs for specific scenarios.

 

[Kalae]

Dieter Bohn writes: "Windows offers a roadmap of where things could go awry for the Mac. Windows on ARM still has unacceptable compromises for most users when it comes to software compatibility and expectations. I say this as a person who walked into those compromises eyes wide open, buying a Surface Pro X. I essentially use it as a glorified Chromebook and it’s very good at being that thing, but there’s no way Apple would want that for its Mac users.

Speaking of things Apple wouldn’t want: ARM-based Windows computers are slower. Unless you’re able to stay within those Chromebook-esque constraints, things get real chuggy real fast. We’ve all been assuming that Apple’s much-vaunted prowess at making fast ARM chips for iPads will translate well to Macs, but there’s no guarantee that’s true until we get to test them ourselves.

Another thing I’ve learned is that using a Windows computer with an ARM processor actually requires a higher level of technical expertise, because you need to know what won’t work and why going in. Basically, 32-bit Windows apps can be emulated in ARM, but more modern 64-bit apps cannot. And short of Googling (or, uh, Binging) around for a decent chunk of time, it’s difficult to know if an app you need will work.

Yet another thing we can take away from Windows is the idea that ARM and Intel versions can co-exist. It’s within the realm of possibility that Apple intends to support both x86 and ARM based Mac for the foreseeable future instead of just managing a transition. Windows is sticking to a plan to support both x86 and ARM. When ARM-based laptops and tablets started getting released, the message was “Here’s a cool new thing you can get if you want, but the reliable old thing isn’t going anywhere.” That’s the Windows way. If Apple were to take that tack, it would mean a sigh of relief for everybody who needs to buy a Mac for the next year or three. But it would also mean another potential pitfall. Windows on ARM simply isn’t getting the developer attention and support that standard Windows gets.

If Apple goes the Windows route and declares that it has no plans to sunset x86 support, then it needs to ensure that both ARM and x86 Macs feel equally supported. If it goes the classic route and declares that the future of the Mac is on ARM, then it needs to assuage concerns that every Mac in existence right now will become obsolete before its time. Neither path is easy."

So let's stop speculating and patiently wait to see what Apple has to say on WWDC.

A core reason Windows on ARM is a glorified Chromebook is because both coexist. Developers felt no pressure to ship ARM versions of their software. Even MS couldn’t be bothered to ship a native version of Office.

 

[pldelisle]

ML... I haven't been in ML for the last couple of years but I reckon a lot of the heavy computing tasks could be moved to the cloud and if anything the ARM chips may allow for more performant on device inferences in the same way they leverage Core ML on the Axx chips? Would love for others who are in the field to chime in on this bit.

Cloud is f*cking expansive, really. When training can take days of compute on multiple GPUs, you need really, really deeeeeep pockets.

That's why having the servers locally can cost a lot less over time.

These chips are really intended for inference. Not training. Training is done on GPUs.

 

[Freida]

I think people read too much and don't think enough.

iPad Pro Design LANGUAGE doesn't mean its iPad on a stand - it means that the design style/language that is present on iPad will be translated to iMac. So, my interpretation is :

- it won't bulge out as it will be flat on the back
- it will be more like old ACD but fresh to current trend
- it might borrow some elements from XDR - the holes or some form of better air ventilation/distribution
- it might be chinless (that is a stretch but it could be possible
- Apple logo might be missing
- and of course it will be For Fusion Sake glossy as always ;-)

 

[ssong]

Cloud is f*cking expansive, really. When training can take days of compute on multiple GPUs, you need really, really deeeeeep pockets.

That's why having the servers locally can cost a lot less over time.

These chips are really intended for inference. Not training. Training is done on GPUs.

that's a shame.. was hoping cloud got cheaper then again in a corporate setting I guess you don't really worry too much about the billing unless you're the one in charge of it

 

[Freida]

Also, as for ARM

I feel that we theoritise too much here. Sure, if Apple switches to ARM it will be big and it will be worth it in the long run but in short term future it will be awful. Developers will need to recompile and the software will yet again take a while to switch. Meanwhile, the first ARM Apple will release will not be that amazing. If you know or remember what Apple does then you know that first product is usually not the best. I think the reason for that is that they make a step (which itself is big) and then they need to follow it up next year or so with another step which is usually much bigger and better.
So a smart thing to do is to wait it out for the 2nd or even 3rd product refresh. In a way, this 'last' Intel iMac might actually be the best time purchase as it will bridge us over the transition period and then when we are ready to update the ARM situation will be way more stable and awesome.

 

[Azrael9]

"iPad Pro design language" could well also mean that they are replicating the iPad + keyboard silhouette...

View attachment 922841

This isn't the design we'll get at WWDC. That will be more like XDR/iPad in thickness but still with iPad design cues such as the tight rounded edges, space grey and the 'iPhone' 4 flat edges.

This design above? Will be the iMac Air WHEN Mac ARM is established following it's 1 year transition.

And I think we can expect something that thin and dramatic with an A16 x chip in it. Circa 2022?

Azrael.
[automerge]1591797475[/automerge]

that's a shame.. was hoping cloud got cheaper then again in a corporate setting I guess you don't really worry too much about the billing unless you're the one in charge of it

Corporations get you hooked on 'cheap' services. Then introduce a fee from free...then once you're hooked on Rental...they creep the price up over time hoping you don't notice...

Azrael.
[automerge]1591797871[/automerge]

Also, as for ARM

I feel that we theoritise too much here. Sure, if Apple switches to ARM it will be big and it will be worth it in the long run but in short term future it will be awful. Developers will need to recompile and the software will yet again take a while to switch. Meanwhile, the first ARM Apple will release will not be that amazing. If you know or remember what Apple does then you know that first product is usually not the best. I think the reason for that is that they make a step (which itself is big) and then they need to follow it up next year or so with another step which is usually much bigger and better.
So a smart thing to do is to wait it out for the 2nd or even 3rd product refresh. In a way, this 'last' Intel iMac might actually be the best time purchase as it will bridge us over the transition period and then when we are ready to update the ARM situation will be way more stable and awesome.

Yes. Anyone buying an Intel Mac now (as I am going to 'have' to...) is good for 7.3 years or I was with what's left of this iMac. I might get 4 Apple supported OS updates if I'm lucky. But the transition will have come and gone, the world kept turning and Intel will be a distant memory as await some 'even thinner' iMac AIR AIR AIR with obscene performance.

But the main thing that will date this iMac isn't so much the move to ARM (thus making me, 'legacy') it will be the launch of RDNA2 later this year, a body blow. It will bury RDNA1. Not sure 'now' is a good time. But is there ever? And the next performance punch will be a '12' core A14x next year. I've got an inside feeling that Apple will bury Intel as they're standing.

I recall buying a PPC Adobe suit just before Apple went Intel cpu. £1k. So it goes.

In short, I concur with Freida's last sentence and the thrust of her post. By the time I'm ready to upgrade, Mac ARM will be a mainstream of some awesomeness and intel will be the footnote to thermal volcano cpus with high costs and mediocre performance that run too hot and 'too slow' and can't fit into xexy 'Mac ARM' style designs.

Azrael.
[automerge]1591797993[/automerge]

I think people read too much and don't think enough.

iPad Pro Design LANGUAGE doesn't mean its iPad on a stand - it means that the design style/language that is present on iPad will be translated to iMac. So, my interpretation is :

- it won't bulge out as it will be flat on the back
- it will be more like old ACD but fresh to current trend
- it might borrow some elements from XDR - the holes or some form of better air ventilation/distribution
- it might be chinless (that is a stretch but it could be possible
- Apple logo might be missing
- and of course it will be For Fusion Sake glossy as always ;-)

Yes. Yes. And Yes.

And those bullet points will make it far more modern, sexier and progressive in design and performance, ultimately.

Azrael.

 

[Azrael9]

Completely agree. Other than Apple Arcade, which is built on ARM chips, they dont care at all about Mac gaming. End of. Everyone can have a far better experience buying a console or building a cheap PC.

The last time Apple cares about Mac towers at affordable prices? About gaming? Steve promising to make the Mac the best gaming platform in the world.

It never happened.

Though, in my dark fantasies? In another universe? In the unholy war vs M$?

The battle field is now changing. Metal. Apple A chip. X-Code. Swift. 1 billion 'Mac' (?) devices ('son of Mac?')

That's a differenct landscape. And M$ and Intel are behind in that particular race. With Apple about to drop the H Bomb A14x (12 cores? Might explain the 'delay' in its deployment to iPad. It's going in the iPad and a Mac ARM with even more high clock? More cores? Who knows.)

Apple care about money. For sure.

Apple follows the money. And Apple Arcade is about subs monetising the iOS market that 'fell into' gaming, more accident than design. But that's still 1 billion devices with a prevelence of games...even if they're not uber AAA games of teH PC Tower variety. I tend to think of iPads and iPhones as Macs with 'smaller' screens...and the Mac ARM will just be another 'Mac' device with 'bigger' screens.

Apple TVs with A12x. Maybe even a 'game' controller (hope it's nothing like the Apple Mac mouse or TV remote..)

Points to the 'casual' gaming market which dwarfs my traditional sense of PC gaming or what I wanted Mac gaming to be.

We'll see if Mac ARM brings any kind of 'Mac' gaming rennaissance. But that will take a few years to play out.

...in the meantime, I'd rec' a PS5 or PC Tower for gaming.

...I wonder if this iMac pending...is the 'eGamer' Mac rumoured back in Dec'?

Azrael.

 

[Freida]

@Azrael9 love your 7.3 longevity. Can you stretch the next one to 7.5 just for fun?