Will there ever be a new large iMac (Pro)?

[Azrael9]

Than again even the iMac Pro with beefy gpu gets outperformed by a hackintosh with a lower end GPU due to better cooling.
I think we all know apple won't legit next level the iMacs cooling with ARM around the corner... so i guess.... thats just what we take.

Yeah. Snazzylabs was quite clear about this in his iMac Pro and 'Hack'tosh' builds. As 'good as' the iMac Pro cooling is...the parts must be under clocked if a lower gpu in the Hack'tosh out performs it.

To me, we take what gpu apple offers (eg RNDA1 variant...and then eGPU anything more significant eg. like the RDNA2. That may help distribute the internal gpu stress so as not to overwork the internal gpu/fans etc.)

Still need that cooling to stop the components from baking in that oven enclosure. It's clear to me, had I pushed my iMac (modestly folks, I don't call a 2004 bootcamped game extreme by any given measure...) harder, sooner its gpu would have broken down sooner. It was an Nvidia 680MX. I wonder. If cooking the gpus was common for AMD gpus in the iMac also...

Either way. I'm expecting far superior cooling in the new iMac.

Azrael.

 

[ondert]

Do you expect properly cooled Macs with arrival of AS? Somehow, even with arm Macs with much lower tdp, I still don’t trust Apple about this simply looking at 12” macbook and MacBook Air. Same might apply to upcoming Macs with thinness craze.

 

[Azrael9]

Does anyone have the article where Ming Chi Kuo said that the 24” AS iMac was launching in 2021 Instead?

I think it's on the front page with Mac Rumours, Franky.

In with the news about the ARM Macbook launching this year. Ming had previously said iMac 24 this year. So, it seems that has changed?

They're both consumer devices with likely similar overall performance so I don't see why Apple couldn't release both at the same time...other than marketing reasons to keep trickling out the AS rollout in the mindshare of the public.

At the end of the day, laptops sell 3.5-4 million Macs and the iMac three quarters to a million desktops.

It would explain why the iMac 24 rollout out gets bumped to Jan' 2021 after the December(?) Mac ARM Book roll out.

Azrael.
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Do you expect properly cooled Macs with arrival of AS? Somehow, even with arm Macs with much lower tdp, I still don’t trust Apple about this simply looking at 12” macbook and MacBook Air. Same might apply to upcoming Macs with thinnes craze.

In as much as iPads are 'properly cooled.' Yes.

Intel. Old. Hot. Hungry.

ARM. The challenger. Lean. Cool.

I'd wager the 'active' cooling in current Macs is probably enough for such a more power efficient beast. (Though the PowerMac Cube had no fan...? And they could push such a marketing thing..on Mac AS. Depends on how they balance power and performance.) For example, the Macbook 12. Horrible keyboard. And the cpu probably ran like toast as soon as you started to do...I dunno...ANYTHING! That would change with Mac AS. It would probably out perform other ultras with no fans...? So a return of this product is highly likely sans crap kboard.)

As for thin. I think Apple have become more pragmatic with Ive's 'release.' So, yes, expect dramatic designs to come that will make the Intel ones seem somewhat portly. But there could be a balance of products featuring active and passive cooling. Ultra thin iPad style...to products, what while more compact but not extremely so to the detriment of performance or cooling.

But we'd expect Apple to keep pushing and tuning this...to custom levels, cooling wise, to really put the boot into Intel's 'efficiency.'

Like a hot (or 'cool') knife through butter.

Azrael.

 

[DrRadon]

To me, we take what gpu apple offers (eg RNDA1 variant...and then eGPU anything more significant eg. like the RDNA2. That may help distribute the internal gpu stress so as not to overwork the internal gpu/fans etc.)

Azrael.

It's not very tempting to ad a eGPU at around 1000€ to my 4000-5000€ iMac to have less stress on my GPU upsell that is tripple the price of it's actual marked value.

Did someone ever do the math of just not buying the upsell card and getting a eGPU with the highest standard config iMac instead? One would assume it's more power per invested Euro. Sort of defeats the purpose of a AIO computer though, especially since the rest is still sold on a premium.

 

[pldelisle]

I never liked eGPU. Not a viable solution, it's only a "patch" solution while waiting for Apple Silicon.

 

[Azrael9]

I would assume that even most of the BTO options are ordered and bought ahead of time by Apple. Yeah, you might get one more BTO option just like the MBP gained one half a year in, but all the rest stays as planed.
Whatever is missing and causing the delay (if production shortage is the issue), everything else has already been ordered and is sitting somewhere. This machine is aging even though it's not released IF the GPUs and CPUs we expect are the actual plan.

On point.

Aye. It's getting old.

Clearly something is holding this Intel iMac up.

SSDs? Screens (slower out put in factories at the moment?) GPUs? (A year old RDNA? Unless they're waiting for the more efficient +1 respin.) CPU? (Waiting for custom Intel down clocks?)

Azrael.

 

[DrRadon]

I would assume it's the screens, i saw somewhere Samsung was doing slow.
SSD probably is save since it's supposed to be apples T2 SSDs.

 

[Azrael9]

Does anyone have the article where Ming Chi Kuo said that the 24” AS iMac was launching in 2021 Instead?

Apple Could See 20% On-Quarter Growth in 3Q20 MacBook Shipments

Apple will "significantly increase" MacBook Pro orders with suppliers in the third quarter of this year as the back-to-school season kicks off, according to supply chain sources. DigiTimes reports that Apple is also set to respond to increasing sales in the creative market, with the number of...

forums.macrumors.com

Redesigned iMac before the end of the year (for Fusion's Sake Apple...)

So, a Macbook 13 AS ARM product.

Which sounds like the iMac AS has been pushed to early next year. Or later.

Apple are really taking their time getting full product updates out this year.

It looks like iPhone. And iMac after at this rate of going.

Azrael.
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This whole AS transition has parallels to other markets.

Some decades ago, there was a transition from heavy displacement boats in sailing to low displacement boats. The results was transforming regarding speed of sailing. There are some interesting history in Americas cup regarding this transition.

Car industry has went from high petrol usage to low petrol usage and those that did not adapt to this change had too close.

Intel/AMD/NVIDIA stands for the heavy displacement and high petrol usage regime. ARM and AS (mobile) stands for the complete opposite and will "win".

In this thread we are moslyt focused on performance but fan free passive cooling is equally important for people. That is what impresses me with the iPad. It does exports of movies completely silently. I clocked movie generation from Keynote animation of the A9X and an eight core xeon, the A9X was as fast as the Xeon... An AS chip that has 2-3 times the performance of the A12Z and passively cooled would be a very nice for an office/home 24 inch iMac.

You've nailed it there. This isn't just about performance. It's about 'power' efficiency.

Der-rooools at the thoughts of the iMac AS 24.

Azrael.

 

[pldelisle]

This isn't just about performance. It's about 'power' efficiency.

Yep. Especially when you design computers like Apple.

 

[Azrael9]

I hope so. I'm not trying to be skeptical, but it's just weird to think these chips that were in ipads and phones...or advance variations of these chips will be beating intel chips....

I hope they do and really push intel to innovate.

* I'm just going to get the 2020 imac with the last intel, and by the time I switch to an ARM imac, there should be a new design, hopefully a new color(space gray please!), and would be into 3rd or 4th gen of these chips..

It's exciting times....It's my first mac since 2007 so I'm excited regardless, but I can't wait to see what these new chips actually do.

The performance improvements being whispered are from 50-100%.

It's not like Xeon or Intel anything are setting a 'high bar', even cash poor AMD have caught them. They've lost their process advantage.

Mobile is where the money is. Intel balked at supplying iPhone. Desktop pcs have thin margins. The pC ToWur market isn't what it once was. Games. Going mobile. Blizzard fans can squeal all they want at Bliz con at Diablo going mobile...but Blizzard (and under Activision they will do as they're told... £££) are gonig mobile. Because? £££. Apple's move to AS will basically have mobile hardware on steroids, eg. An A14 with variants that can do mobile, desktop, ultra mobile and give passive cooling with 2-3 times the performance of the current A12z.

The dinosuar slept. And when it 'work' up it found it got eaten by the mammals. Or hit by a meteor. 'So they say.'

The rest is history.

Azrael.
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Steady on, Fredia. How many have you had to drink? Or are you talking from experience? Is that what you say to yourself in the bedro... never mind.

Half of me is cautiously optimistic for the first generation of AS Macs, the other is fully aboard the hype train. I am very tempted to buy a 'cheap' MBP/MBA with AS later this, to test drive it. Note, I have a history of stupid Apple purchases, so this is something a muppet like me would do!

...*coughs.*

Yes...AS augur greatly for the future.

Azrael.
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Size doesn't matter, its the performance that counts )))

(Where have I heard that before 🧐) 🤪🤪🤪

Yes...we're sure looking forward to Mac Mini Powerhouse with AS inside. (Duh-du-DOH-duh!)

The motion in the ocean of AS...*gazes at the horizon.*

Azrael.
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I think this article already has been shared here but remember that AS GPU uses a new modern way of rendering called Tile Based Deferred Rendering (TBDR) with focus on speed and low power consumption. Intel, AMD and Nvidia still use the old inefficient way called Immediate Mode Rendering (IMR) which needs a lot of bandwidth and power. I think Apple knows a lot more than we can imagine.

ARM Mac graphics performance could beat discrete GPUs - 9to5Mac

Apple gave an impressive demo of ARM Mac graphics performance when it showed a Shadow of the Tomb Raider demo during its WWDC keynote ...

9to5mac.com

Spot on. ...and noteworthy.

Only in the end will they realise...

Azrael.

 

[gusping]

Yes...we're sure looking forward to Mac Mini Powerhouse with AS inside. (Duh-du-DOH-duh!)

The motion in the ocean of AS...*gazes at the horizon.*

PLEASE! This is one of the few things I want in life (I'm a simple man!).

Hopefully in the next few years, something along the lines of an i7-10700K and RTX 5700 XT in a Mac mini are possible.... I'm not asking much, am I?

I am interested in how Apple approach higher clock speeds with their AS Macs. We know iPads/iPhones tend to go down the route of lots of cores, which have relatively low speeds (by desktop/laptop computer standards). Any guesses on the first AS Mac that has a 5+Ghz CPU?

 

[Kjs100]

Does anyone have the article where Ming Chi Kuo said that the 24” AS iMac was launching in 2021 Instead?

I haven't seen an article reporting that's what Kuo said. More likely an article making their own interpretation. MacR reported on 22 June that Kuo said a 24" ARM iMac would be released Q4. I'm expecting Oct/Nov.

Kuo: 24-Inch iMac With New Design to Launch in Fourth Quarter of 2020

Apple plans to launch a 24-inch iMac with a new design in the fourth quarter of 2020, analyst Ming-Chi Kuo said today in a research note obtained by...

www.macrumors.com

 

[Azrael9]

Okay so I was thinking about the iMac Pro, the Sonny Dickson Rumor, 27" Shipping Delays, Kuo rumors and well I had some thoughts that might make sense of it all.

The new iMac Pro

Any day from now until July 30th (3Q Investors Call) Apple releases an all new redesigned iMac 27" which they might just call iMac Pro. Discontinuing the current iMac Pro and 27" iMac. They will also refresh the 21.5 with upgraded internals.

Why release before July 30th?

Releasing this before the investors call would be a good way to cover the poor COVID-19 related sales numbers.

Why a redesign, not a refresh?

The new 27" iMac "Pro" will have the all new iPad inspired design with XDR bezels, 10th Gen Intel Processors, NAVI graphics, no fusion drives, based on the Sonny Dickson leak and the leaked benchmark. Originally they wanted to launch at WWDC but pulled last minute because of ARM announcement. Hence the long/strange 27" iMac shipping times. My opinion if it was just a refresh it would have come already.

But why call is iMac Pro?

The 2017 iMac Pro at the $4999 price point was originally created to offer pros an alternative to the trash can MacPro, but with the arrival of the new MacPro, the iMac Pro can evolve down to a more prosumer device like an MacBook Pro is Pro

What about the September/October Events?

There is no way Apple crams everything in one massive event.

In a September Event Apple will strictly focus on iPhone, Apple Watch, Apple TV, HomePods, AirPods, Airtags. No need to stuff everything in one event as some would say, that would be marketing overload.

In an October Event Apple will reveal an all new AS MacBook with all new design, and an all new AS 24" iMac with the iPad Pro inspired design language.

This aligns with Kuo stating an Intel iMac release in Q3 and Apple Silicon 24" iMac in Q4.

In Conclusion

I think Sonny Dickson heard a correct leak but the release changed. This is also why shipping dates are so out of wack right now because the supply chain was expecting a June release. The leaked benchmark confirmed that Sonny was correct on the internals so why not the redesign as well. This release would align with Ming Chi Kuo as well and make sense of the crazy shipping times.

At this point whenever the 27” iMac releases I am pretty sure it just won’t be a spec bump.

I wouldn't be surprised with consolidation of the desktop and laptop lines.

Adding 100% performance to an iMac consumer 24/27 takes it far beyond the performance of Xeons. Whilst the Apple GPU can hardly do worse than what is served up in the current £750-£2000 price bracket.

Azrael.

 

[xgman]

Analysts said recently that Apple will sell a ton of macbooks this fall and winter due to schools slow start, among other things covid related. So it isn't a stretch to think that some imac sales will tag along. The real question is when and how to capture this expected uptick in mac sales.. Not so much the higher end ones I suppose, but still... Seems to me an August back to school (sort of) time frame would work for that. That said, I don't see how they can rush out ARM Macbooks that soon, so maybe those get some late year attention. The average buyer probably hasn't paid much attention to the ARM news anyway yet.

 

[Rbfinch570]

So not this week everyone?

 

[Azrael9]

PLEASE! This is one of the few things I want in life (I'm a simple man!).

Hopefully in the next few years, something along the lines of an i7-10700K and RTX 5700 XT in a Mac mini are possible.... I'm not asking much, am I?

I am interested in how Apple approach higher clock speeds with their AS Macs. We know iPads/iPhones tend to go down the route of lots of cores, which have relatively low speeds (by desktop/laptop computer standards). Any guesses on the first AS Mac that has a 5+Ghz CPU?

8 core AS (plus 4 more lower power cores...) are being whispered about. And let's not forget that AS GPU.

It wouldn't surprise me to see AS outperform the current Mac Mini by 50-100%. The consumer iMac also.

The 5700XT was last year's 'mid range.' So it effectively is a low end gpu now. It's not that high a bar for Apple to chase down. Considering that...

If the current A12z has the graphical power (according to one dev?) of a Nv 1060? (And I wouldn't doubt that after seeing it throw Maya, her friend Lara Croft around the 'bedroom' whilst also handling multi gig PS files and 3x4k video streams...we're talking about workflows far in excess of the current Mac Mini and consumer iMac as well as run millions of iphone and ipad apps natively.) I expect any iMac AS to age any Intel iMac.

What will an AS with custom Apple GPU do? We don't know. But if the iPad is a signal of intent...

Azrael.

 

[DrRadon]

So not this week everyone?

by the Frequenzspektrum Apple puts stuff out it never was going to be this week. Not that I would not take it.
next week is our safest bet. I fear it will be software updates though.

My fear right now is that it is coming only in October with the Big Sur release. That would be horrible. In have been needing a new computer for almost four month now.

 

[gusping]

8 core AS (plus 4 more lower power cores...) are being whispered about. And let's not forget that AS GPU.

It wouldn't surprise me to see AS outperform the current Mac Mini by 50-100%. The consumer iMac also.

The 5700XT was last year's 'mid range.' So it effectively is a low end gpu now. It's not that high a bar for Apple to chase down. Considering that...

If the current A12z has the graphical power (according to one dev?) of a Nv 1060? (And I wouldn't doubt that after seeing it throw Maya, her friend Lara Croft around the 'bedroom' whilst also handling multi gig PS files and 3x4k video streams...we're talking about workflows far in excess of the current Mac Mini and consumer iMac as well as run millions of iphone and ipad apps natively.) I expect any iMac AS to age any Intel iMac.

What will an AS with custom Apple GPU do? We don't know. But if the iPad is a signal of intent...

Azrael.

I am very excited for AS as a Mac mini owner. If I had an 8-core (9900K) iMac I would perhaps be more sceptical, but a 6-core, 8th gen i7 should be within Apple's reach (let's not talk about the iGPU...)
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by the Frequenzspektrum Apple puts stuff out it never was going to be this week. Not that I would not take it.
next week is our safest bet. I fear it will be software updates though.

As someone running the iOS 14 beta on their only iPhone, I welcome all software updates!

 

[CWallace]

I hope so. I'm not trying to be skeptical, but it's just weird to think these chips that were in ipads and phones...or advance variations of these chips will be beating intel chips...

Intel's Core micro-architecture is in many ways now reflective of their Netburst micro-architecture in the Pentium 4 family. They were "stuck" on both for a decade and had to run each generation harder (and therefore hotter) to get meaningful (even measurable) performance improvements. Process improvements have allowed them to do that without requiring liquid cooling (though the air cooling has become more and more ridiculously large just as it did on Netburst), but in the end they have hit a wall and until they move to an all-new micro-architecture, they're going to be hobbled.

Apple Silicon, on the other hand, still has plenty of performance growth in it. It was designed to need only passive cooling, so they can run them far harder (and yes, hotter) with air cooling which will allow for significant performance increases over a long period of time. I also believe Apple Silicon's micro-architecture will scale much more effectively in terms of power requirements (so less cooling needed at higher clock speeds / greater core counts) and that will allow them to match, and then eventually, overtake Intel - at least in terms of "general computing" tasks which is what Apple is focusing on.

 

[xgman]

by the Frequenzspektrum

My fear right now is that it is coming only in October with the Big Sur release. That would be horrible. In have been needing a new computer for almost four month now.

From what I have seen so far with the early Big S beta, I am hoping a release with a special edition of Catalina so as not to be forced to quickly to adopt BS. Pun intended.

 

[gusping]

Intel's Core micro-architecture is in many ways now reflective of their Netburst micro-architecture in the Pentium 4 family. They were "stuck" on both for a decade and had to run each generation harder (and therefore hotter) to get meaningful (even measurable) performance improvements. Process improvements have allowed them to do that without requiring liquid cooling (though the air cooling has become more and more ridiculously large just as it did on Netburst), but in the end they have hit a wall and until they move to an all-new micro-architecture, they're going to be hobbled.

Apple Silicon, on the other hand, still has plenty of performance growth in it. It was designed to need only passive cooling, so they can run them far harder (and yes, hotter) with air cooling which will allow for significant performance increases over a long period of time. I also believe Apple Silicon's micro-architecture will scale much more effectively in terms of power requirements (so less cooling needed at higher clock speeds / greater core counts) and that will allow them to match, and then eventually, overtake Intel - at least in terms of "general computing" tasks which is what Apple is focusing on.

Do we know if the AS Mac mini dev kit has a fan? There appears to be a slot in the back of it (although much smaller than that of the current Intel Mac mini), which suggests a fan, but I have also read it is clocked slower (100Mhz I think) than the iPad Pro A12Z... Seems odd if that is the case.

Does anyone know more on this?

 

[CWallace]

So I know I've been waffling on this, but after the latest round of Apple Tech Podcasts, I am more and more inclined to believe the next Intel 27" iMac will be redesigned with the "iPad Pro" like corners and that it might very well not ship until October.

The reason for this latest change of view is that Big Sur / macOS 11 is designed for a display with rounded corners. It is said to look somewhat ridiculous on the current square-cornered iMac displays and yes Apple could arguably address this by rounding the corners of the current bezels, but I am not sure that would be enough.

Since macOS 11 will likely not ship before October, I think that is what is holding up shipments. I expect Apple has stopped making the current model and is gearing up production of the new one to launch day-and-date with macOS 11 and they need macOS 11 to be in a shipping state before they start installing it on their pre-built machines.

This new design will, of course, be optimized for Apple Silicon, which will arrive with the next refresh (likely Late 2021 or sometime in 2022). So that might impact the components (Intel CPU and AMD GPU) we will see in it.


As for the iMac Pro, I can believe it would adopt the same design language as the 5K iMac, but I believe it will remain a separate model in the line-up with unique components (CPU+GPU) and it will likely be pushed into 2021 solely because of the MiniLED display I expect it to have (as another differentiator from the base iMacs).

 

[FrankySavvy]

I am running the Big Sur beta and it doesn’t look ridiculous but you can tell that it would work with with rounded corners as well.

 

[DrRadon]

So I know I've been waffling on this, but after the latest round of Apple Tech Podcasts, I am more and more inclined to believe the next Intel 27" iMac will be redesigned with the "iPad Pro" like corners and that it might very well not ship until October.

The reason for this latest change of view is that Big Sur / macOS 11 is designed for a display with rounded corners. It is said to look somewhat ridiculous on the current square-cornered iMac displays and yes Apple could arguably address this by rounding the corners of the current bezels, but I am not sure that would be enough.

Since macOS 11 will likely not ship before October, I think that is what is holding up shipments. I expect Apple has stopped making the current model and is gearing up production of the new one to launch day-and-date with macOS 11 and they need macOS 11 to be in a shipping state before they start installing it on their pre-built machines.

This new design will, of course, be optimized for Apple Silicon, which will arrive with the next refresh (likely Late 2021 or sometime in 2022). So that might impact the components (Intel CPU and AMD GPU) we will see in it.


As for the iMac Pro, I can believe it would adopt the same design language as the 5K iMac, but I believe it will remain a separate model in the line-up with unique components (CPU+GPU) and it will likely be pushed into 2021 solely because of the MiniLED display I expect it to have (as another differentiator from the base iMacs).

Over the past few years Apple has released the new macOS on the following dates:

• Catalina - 7 October 2019
• Mojave - 24 September 2018
• High Sierra - 25 September 2017
• Sierra - 20 September 2016
• El Capitan - 30 September 2015
• Yosemite - 16 October 16 2014
• Mavericks - 22 October 2013

If anyone cares.

BUT since supposedly the new iMac and Design should have been ready already... who knows right.

As for the podcasts you listend to.Are you certain they are news? Or did you just convinced by the same guess being repeated by everyone again and again? There is essentially one guy that said "iPad pro design language" and to my knowledge that is it.

 

[jetjaguar]

Just popping in to say this wait is ridiculous