Will there ever be a new large iMac (Pro)?

[Homy]

If they ignore their computer base then I will leave them all together. I don't want great phone, I want great eco system and the Mac is the most important part of that. Remove that and I will just get pissed off and leave them.
I'm sure there will be tons of people like me.

I'm too getting worried about Apple not being able to deliver good GPU performance in AAA games. I hope they prove me wrong. Otherwise I just might buy an iMac Radeon 5300 next year and wait a few more years for a powerful AS iMac.

 

[iPadified]

I got the numbers from https://browser.geekbench.com/metal-benchmarks but according to Barefeats Intel(R) Iris(TM) Plus Graphics 645 is faster than A12Z with a Metal score of 10519 vs. 10244. I don't know why Barefeats shows double the performance but in that case that's even worse than I thought for A12Z. The point of comparing to Radeon Pro 450 was of course to show that A12Z is as slow as a dGPU from 2016. I really hope Apple doesn't play cheap and puts those 24 CUs/GPU cores on AS.

8 cores takes up about a third of an A12Z, 24 cores would increase the chips size 50-60%. As the A12Z is 135 mm2, a 24 core A12Z would be nearly 200mm2, which is not really big. A node shrink and the chip would be in the order of 160mm2 (assuming 20% higher density). Perfectly realistic. However, it is not what can be done but what Apple will be doing. I also hope for 24 core GPU and slight higher clock speeds to reach half 5700XT performance.

 

[CWallace]

I'm too getting worried about Apple not being able to deliver good GPU performance in AAA games.

Since macOS (once they drop Intel support) will require games to use Metal and Apple's GPUs will certainly be optimized for Metal, performance should me at least good.

 

[Azrael9]

IT. IS. HERE.

The Beast has arrived. Let the unboxing begin! Time to get to work.

Congrats, Fireguy286.

Feel free to show some 'work case' (yours) benches.

Azrael.
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So. There we have it.

Azrael.

 

[Azrael9]

Since macOS (once they drop Intel support) will require games to use Metal and Apple's GPUs will certainly be optimized for Metal, performance should me at least good.

I expect Apple to surprise with GPU performance efficiency. Pound for pound. Expect them to punch above their weight class.

The Metal/Apple GPU/App Store triad will usher in a new era of performance and gaming on 'Macs.'

To be honest. It couldn't be any worse than the junk Intel iG they've been charging premium prices for.

Consumer Macs are in for a huge uplift.

Ampere is here. PS5 is here. 4k mainstream gaming is upon us. (It's late, in my view.)

Azrael.

 

[Azrael9]

8 cores takes up about a third of an A12Z, 24 cores would increase the chips size 50-60%. As the A12Z is 135 mm2, a 24 core A12Z would be nearly 200mm2, which is not really big. A node shrink and the chip would be in the order of 160mm2 (assuming 20% higher density). Perfectly realistic. However, it is not what can be done but what Apple will be doing. I also hope for 24 core GPU and slight higher clock speeds to reach half 5700XT performance.

Half 5700XT performance would be disappointing to me.

It's last year's mid-range card from a company that couldn't even offer a flagship gpu...and isn't rolling in cash.

It doesn't have to be a 3090.

But I'm expecting something better than a 5700XT.

Apple have been leading the gpu race in mobiles. Why should we have Mac computers continuing with mid range last year gpu perf' in the move to AS?

I want something that competes with the PS5, at least.

Azrael.

 

[Azrael9]

I'm too getting worried about Apple not being able to deliver good GPU performance in AAA games. I hope they prove me wrong. Otherwise I just might buy a iMac Radeon 5300 next year and wait a few more years for a powerful AS iMac.

You might as well buy a current iMac. They're good solid deals. £2300 for 8 cores. 5500XT. SSD. (A fast one...). You get a PC thrown in for 'free.' And a £1300 5k display.

And you can buy an AS iMac in one or two years when they become available in the bigger size or with an AS15.

I'd expect such a beast within two years. I'm curious as to what Apple will do.

Azrael.
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If they ignore their computer base then I will leave them all together. I don't want great phone, I want great eco system and the Mac is the most important part of that. Remove that and I will just get pissed off and leave them.
I'm sure there will be tons of people like me.

Yes. Without decent Macs. I'm out.

Azrael.

 

[Azrael9]

Well, maybe not much Nvidia but AS iMac will be directly compared to the previous AMD iMac and its GPU performance and Apple can not simply ignore that comparison because the customers and reviewers certainly won't. What Apple's competitors are capable of surely impacts Apple's prestige. On the other hand since they're more of a phone company now they could just ignore their computer customer base and their needs, like they have before.

Apple aren't immune to competition. £3400. And I have to put up with 'last year's mid-range' gpu. (Yes. It's 'good' for an iMac gpu...a backhanded compliment. ...the PC world is poised to move on.)

Meanwhile?

Ampere. PS5. 'Direct' or not. Are competition.

Azrael.

 

[Azrael9]

I’ve got to say after a week of use this i7 8 Core 2020 iMac with 1 TB SSD is the best machine I’ve ever had...this is my 3rd iMac.

by the way things sounded on some of these boards I expected fans to be blaring, system over heating and RAM issues. I almost bought an iMac Pro because of those complaints...so glad I didn’t.

The other night I was Rendering in Adobe After Effects, editing files in Photoshop, mail, Safari, Spotify, and recording tracks in Logic Pro X (With several powerful plugins running). No fans ever kicked on and the chassis wasn’t even warm. This is by far the coolest running iMac I’ve ever owned. Haven’t heard the fans yet and probably won’t since that’s about as hard as I’ll push it. Added 64 GB of RAM with 2 Samsung 32GB sticks...no issues, running full strength.

Is it mostly gamers getting these hot machines?

another thing, for my uses I have no issues with Catalina. Coming from High Sierra it seems like a big improvement for me.

I‘m one satisfied iMac owner!

Enjoy Mr. Marbles..!

It's very 'cold' to the touch, me new iMac.

The only time it gets 'noisy' is when synth tests push it to test its limits. To be expected. Most of the time it has quiet poise.

It's the best and fastest iMac ever.

Azrael.

 

[Azrael9]

Speaking of GPUs, nVidia just threw down the gauntlet to AMD with the new 3000 series.

They sure did.

See link posted above.

Even an 8k gaming option for an eye watering £1500!!! (For which you'll need an 8k monitor. eg. Dell at £3300...)

...and that's before you buy the rest.

Azrael.

 

[Azrael9]

I don't think Apple much cares what NVidia (and soon, AMD) does as there is (will be) pretty much zero-overlap between them in the market.

You won't see Apple GPUs ("Lifuka") in Windows gaming PCs, gaming consoles or non-Apple data-centers.

Nvidia having more competition from Intel and Apple (who are both in gpus...) along with AMD getting more competitive is a 'good thing.' ofc.

Apple aren't immune from competition.

Not when you have the choice of Ampere, RDNA2 PC boxes and consoles of the PS5 quality.

Apple will have to 'lag' less with their offerings.

Azrael.

 

[DrRadon]

So the 8-core is actually performing better than the 10-core in situations because it is clocked higher.

Oops.

 

[Azrael9]

Yes, I have a 2010 and 2014 iMac on my desk, the older one mainly for monitoring some things. As soon as the 2020 arrives I will retire the 2010 and replace it with the 2014. It is easier to have a quick lock to the second iMac than to switch the virtual desktop (which I use a lot)

Good to hear about your use case.

I'll have the Intel iMac and the AS iMac (when it comes...) fighting side by side.

So next time something goes 'wrong' I'll have a back up workstation.

Azrael.

 

[Azrael9]

A12Z has already "better performance and more energy efficiency than the Intel GPU". That shouldn't be the goal. Apple must aim at the best GPU in the current iMac or it won't look good. Right now A12Z scores as good as Radeon Pro 450 from 2016. Of course it's better than Radeon 6750M in my 2011 iMac and they can optimize Mac SoC better but they still have a long way to the top. Even if they double the GPU performance of A12Z with A14Z it still can't reach the score of Vega 20 in iMac 21.5".

Mac Mini Intel(R) HD Graphics 630 Metal score 3757
iMac 21.5" Intel(R) Iris(TM) Plus Graphics 640 Metal score 4929
MBP 13" Intel(R) Iris(TM) Plus Graphics 645 Metal score 5481
AMD Radeon Pro 450 Metal score 10215
iPad Pro 11" A12Z Metal score 10244
AMD Radeon Pro 560X Metal score 17586
AMD Radeon Pro Vega 20 Metal score 24535
iMac 27" AMD Radeon Pro 5700XT Metal score 74768

The grave yard of Apple Mac gpus past...in that regard the A12z is doing quite 'well.' But they'll have to really 'step up' for the AS.

Good post, Homy.

Azrael.
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I think it is mostly one's sensitivity to noise as well as ambient quietness in one's location.

I never hear my fans on my 2017 until they are north of 2000 RPM, yet others can hear them at the default 1200 RPM. I live next to a major Interstate and I usually keep my window open so I expect that plays a role as my room is never "silent" so the fans disappear into the general noise floor.

Don't hear them until I push the rig. Simples.

Azrael.

 

[Azrael9]

What interests me is that Apple is giving this new GPU it's own name, but it could very well be that it will be an on-die GPU, just with a different architecture than the current on-die GPUs in the A-Series that is optimized for more complex tasks and designed to scale much higher in terms of core-counts.

I'm really interested to see what they come up with.

Azrael.

 

[Azrael9]

It is. I've several old bits of kit. A CBM64, a Vic 20 (doesn't work for long, stays on for a couple of minutes), an Amiga A500, and original A1000, and an Atari ST. Mostly in storage. I get them out to play with now and again, but tbh I've learned such things should stay in the past.

It's interesting watching ideas and how they evolve though. The '64 I've a copy of GEOS - the ideas for modern windows and MacOS were certainly there, even in 64Kb (!) of RAM. Phenomenal.

The Amiga was bonkers capable for specific tasks, but furiously hard (for me anyway) to program beyond Amiga Basic.

Think there may even be an Olivetti in the garage somewhere?

Also - this one my get some interest - An 80186 based Minolta running MS-DOS 2.something. That was really just a word-processor but was probably my first introduction to 'proper' PCs.

In the past..? Hmph.

I'd still take a C64 for gaming.

(You can now get a 'retro' model for a modest £100 or so.)

Azrael.

 

[Azrael9]

So...the redesigned flagship iMac will come with it's own Apple GPU.

Called the (Mother) Lifuka.

I hope it performs like one. And beats the mid-range...last year 5700XT to humility.

Azrael.

 

[pldelisle]

So...the redesigned flagship iMac will come with it's own Apple GPU.

Called the (Mother) Lifuka.

Azrael.

Seems like all our discussions on Apple SoC with GPU will materialize my friend !

 

[Azrael9]

Seems like all our discussions on Apple SoC with GPU will materialize my friend !

*nods slowly.

Smiles.**

Azrael.

 

[pldelisle]

I miss this speculation thread. Everybody now play with its new toy. No more fabulation, expectations, wishes ... ahahah

 

[Azrael9]

The expectation for AS is quite clear.

Svelt design. Bevels slender. 32 inches. 6k-8k display. (Ampere flagship is pushing 8k gaming...5k is so 2014.)

AS cpu that is at least 50% faster baseline. 100% on some benches...faster.

MoAR cores.

GPU. I'd like to see it competing with the PS5 RDNA2 at least.

I'd like to see Apple pushing efficient to compete with Ampere at some level.

Bigger ram baseline.

Tighter system performances.

Better(!) cooling.

Rotate to portrait display design.

Easel ergonomics.

Apple Pencil integration.

iPhone/iPad dock on the keyboard. (See HP for details...)

Better integration with iPad apps to become 'truly' native to play well with the new resolution.

It's going to have to be 'just a slimmer' iMac with slightly better performance to get my next round of money.

I'm prepared to wait.

Given Ampere 3090 just announced compelling '8k' (so they say...) at 60FPS perf'?

The question is. How long is Apple Silicon immune from this 'competition?'

How long before we get Ampere 3090 perf'...in...an iMac?

Azrael.
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*goes back to playing with new 'toy.'

Azrael.

 

[pldelisle]

How long before we get Ampere 3090 perf'...in...an iMac?

Does the iMac * really * need Ampere 3090 performance ? I don't think so.

Apple Pencil integration.

iPhone/iPad dock on the keyboard. (See HP for details...)

Ahahah ! Won't happen anytime soon.

 

[Azrael9]

You wanted speculation. And now you have it.

I think the iMac does need 3090 performance. To drive a 6k, 8k or 10k display.

The current iMac is 'good.' It's got a 6 year old 5k display. A 'last year mid range' gpu which cost £500. A hot running 10 core cpu. A really old design. (It 'stands' up reasonably well. But in Apple vanguard parlance...very iStale.)

So while this update is substantial and commendable by iMac standards. I'm trying to think of any way it is cutting edge?

Cooling? Design? A high Res monitor? A flagship gpu (nowhere near flagship in Ampere and RDNA2 gpu terms...). Ram is 8 gigs standard. Meh. Ports? Still TB3? PCIE? '3'? No '4' then?

I may have one. But you have to be balanced in discussion of what it is. It's the last summation of the Intel and AMD journey.

We can hope for 'moOAR' from AS. And I expect Apple to deliver it. Their destiny is now their own.

Intel iMac. It is 'now' a good overall package. And anybody coming from 2012 and needing one? Need wait no longer. Unless you're a progressional 'wait-er' like me.

I'm expecting an iMac iPad (at least in appearance...) which will punch above its weight class.

As someone who is interesting in gpu tech'. I find the lethargy in gpu tech' in the last 5 years bemusing. That's what a lack of competition gets you.

Luckily, Apple, Intel and a resurgent AMD are all getting back in the ring. Hopefully, they can chase down that 3090.



And for a far more compelling price.

...as for the dock. I like HP's keyboard dock. I'll give them a point for that.

Apple Pencil. On an Easel iMac. I don't expect the 1st AS Macs to offer touch. But I think they will come. 1st the transition. (Slimmer, cooler, faster versions of the same paradigm...)

Then the real sexy 'touch' and dramatic design stuff to make the AS 1st adopters green with envy...

Regards,

Azrael.

 

[Azrael9]

*Pokes the wasp nest of speculation.

Azrael.

 

[Freida]

Apart from some marketing terms this is insane. I guess Nvidia stepped it up again and I wonder what will AMD do now as I assume RDNA2 is not that good (or is it?).
Apple has big shoes to fill and even though I believe they can pull it off I feel it will take them a while.
I hope that they did pay attention the to announcement as that should be their base benchmark from now on.

I doubt Mac Pro will jump straight to AS for the GPU. It may stick with dGPU from AMD for a while until Apple catches up to a reasonable level.

That 3090 - OMFG!
So sad to see that 3080 is way more powerful than 5700XT we get in iMac and its pretty much the same price.

if only we could get 3070 for the new iMac

I'm curious to see what RDNA2 brings and I really hope that Apple will give us an option to iMac for the upgrade as I doubt there will be another update before the AS one - which by the looks of it is 1 year away (Oct/Nov 2021).

So, can we please get RDNA2 in march or so? ;-)

Congrats, Fireguy286.

Feel free to show some 'work case' (yours) benches.

Azrael.
[automerge]1599051363[/automerge]

So. There we have it.

Azrael.