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Will there ever be a new large iMac (Pro)?
- Thread starter krazzix
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I didn't like Max video, he basically said nothing new or interesting.
Linus (is that his name) raised some valid points but not much new either.
To be honest, after watching the second video I am contemplating if I can manage to stay on my 2017 MBP a little longer and just get the AS next year. A thought that is quite controversial for me as I do know that first gen won't be the big bang. It usually the 3rd one sometimes the 2nd one so its a tough call.
I've just returned the Tier 3 iMac and now I'm waiting to see if I order new one with 2TB SSD and 5700 or wait for the October event or wait in general for next WWDC
I guess I will decide as soon as the first AS is out and we have a good inclination about what is coming. So the only disadvantages is that I won't get free AirPods. Hmm, can I please get A15 Mac now? ;-)
Hahahahha
Linus (is that his name) raised some valid points but not much new either.
To be honest, after watching the second video I am contemplating if I can manage to stay on my 2017 MBP a little longer and just get the AS next year. A thought that is quite controversial for me as I do know that first gen won't be the big bang. It usually the 3rd one sometimes the 2nd one so its a tough call.
I've just returned the Tier 3 iMac and now I'm waiting to see if I order new one with 2TB SSD and 5700 or wait for the October event or wait in general for next WWDC
I guess I will decide as soon as the first AS is out and we have a good inclination about what is coming. So the only disadvantages is that I won't get free AirPods. Hmm, can I please get A15 Mac now? ;-)
Hahahahha
I personally take Linus and his “advice” with a large grain of salt, especially when it comes to Macs.
Only an idiot would reach the conclusion that the new iMac is “dead on arrival.” He’s mocking you. I stopped watching at that point.
I expect nothing that impressive, to be honest. Going from Kaby Lake (14nm) to Ice Lake (10nm) with the same 15W TDP actually resulted in a slower Turbo clock and they omitted the iGPU.
A 5nm Intel i9 would probably still be a very warm chip because I believe the architecture they use just runs hot when pushed hard, regardless of the process.
I know he's a PC 'guy' but I didn't find his review unfair. I felt he was pretty even handed.
But sure, he got a shot in about the "Moon Logic" upgrade BTOs and the Turbo heat and throttling...despite Apple's 'best' efforts.
(He could have put the boot in about the lack of decent cooling system but he, like me, is resigned that Apple has already moved on to AS iMac.)
Azrael.
I don't really know this guy as I think I've seen only about 5 videos from him, and only 3 were about macs or so, so I'm quite 'balanced' I think. However, I think you may have switched it off too early or you misunderstood his point about DOA.
He has a point. Apple can try as hard as possible to 'keep' intel IN but its the developers that will decide and we can assume how that goes. Certain apps are still lacking on certain platform - ie, I still don't understand why Zbrush is not on iPad despite the iPad Pro being so powerful and pretty much the perfect device for sculpting.
Now, Apple jumps again and apart from Blizzard (and some high profile developers) the support will again be slow.
Also, the developers will be in a position to :
- develop for intel now knowing its dying
- develop of AS even though its new and it might not have the adoption you want
- don't develop for Mac at all?
- etc.
Big developers will shift and will eventually stop doing Intel package. Its just a matter of time (literally)
But some small developers might not or will only do AS and thats it.
Thats what he meant DOA - the product you get now is literally DOA in almost every sense if we look long term.
Sure, short term its fine but I would compare it to stock - you need to know when to get rid off it
And iMac is just like that. Its a great machine (I've just returned the tier 3 model and it was awesome) but its old design, old specs, pricey, and most of all, its Intel. So great use for now but in about 2 years (or so) its probably wise to get rid off it. After that, it might be hard to sell it for decent price but that is yet to be seen.
So if one is buying iMac now knowing all the risks then that is fine and fair but thats where the importance lies.
I'll probably get one myself next month after the show the AS product.
But I dont' want to be stuck with G5 kinda experience when the new Mac Pro 2008 is so awesome))))
That is literally what I know from history and that is what I'm taking into account now.
Mac Pro 2008 was my first Mac (8core) and it was such an awesome machine. G5 was literally dead
So yeah, history will repeat itself. We just don't know to what extend but it will. Hence why his DOA comment.
He has a point. Apple can try as hard as possible to 'keep' intel IN but its the developers that will decide and we can assume how that goes. Certain apps are still lacking on certain platform - ie, I still don't understand why Zbrush is not on iPad despite the iPad Pro being so powerful and pretty much the perfect device for sculpting.
Now, Apple jumps again and apart from Blizzard (and some high profile developers) the support will again be slow.
Also, the developers will be in a position to :
- develop for intel now knowing its dying
- develop of AS even though its new and it might not have the adoption you want
- don't develop for Mac at all?
- etc.
Big developers will shift and will eventually stop doing Intel package. Its just a matter of time (literally)
But some small developers might not or will only do AS and thats it.
Thats what he meant DOA - the product you get now is literally DOA in almost every sense if we look long term.
Sure, short term its fine but I would compare it to stock - you need to know when to get rid off it
And iMac is just like that. Its a great machine (I've just returned the tier 3 model and it was awesome) but its old design, old specs, pricey, and most of all, its Intel. So great use for now but in about 2 years (or so) its probably wise to get rid off it. After that, it might be hard to sell it for decent price but that is yet to be seen.
So if one is buying iMac now knowing all the risks then that is fine and fair but thats where the importance lies.
I'll probably get one myself next month after the show the AS product.
But I dont' want to be stuck with G5 kinda experience when the new Mac Pro 2008 is so awesome
)))) That is literally what I know from history and that is what I'm taking into account now.
Mac Pro 2008 was my first Mac (8core) and it was such an awesome machine. G5 was literally dead
So yeah, history will repeat itself. We just don't know to what extend but it will. Hence why his DOA comment.
btw. in case you did not know. AMD drivers for the new iMac have been on their website for about two weeks now. Fixed all of my Bootcamp troubles. Sadly even with this powerhouse stuff like xCom 2 and Civ 6 still run noticeably better on Win, one more reason to stick with a non ARM iMac for the time being.
Quite the opposite actually. This is precisely why AS will be superior.
The iPad experience translated to Macs - super smooth everything.
The iPad experience translated to Macs - super smooth everything.
I tend to agree with you and he should know better. Yes, at some point native intel Mac development will wane, but the comparison to PPC is mistake, PPC itself was DEAD - Intel is not. That alone is going to alter the course of transition. If you even assumed the absolute worst, you still have one hell of a Windows 10 machine for years to come.
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Thats actually very good point about the windows machine. Haven't thought about it that way
Thank you
Thank you
I don't really know this guy as I think I've seen only about 5 videos from him, and only 3 were about macs or so, so I'm quite 'balanced' I think. However, I think you may have switched it off too early or you misunderstood his point about DOA.
He has a point. Apple can try as hard as possible to 'keep' intel IN but its the developers that will decide and we can assume how that goes. Certain apps are still lacking on certain platform - ie, I still don't understand why Zbrush is not on iPad despite the iPad Pro being so powerful and pretty much the perfect device for sculpting.
Now, Apple jumps again and apart from Blizzard (and some high profile developers) the support will again be slow.
Also, the developers will be in a position to :
- develop for intel now knowing its dying
- develop of AS even though its new and it might not have the adoption you want
- don't develop for Mac at all?
- etc.
Big developers will shift and will eventually stop doing Intel package. Its just a matter of time (literally)
But some small developers might not or will only do AS and thats it.
Thats what he meant DOA - the product you get now is literally DOA in almost every sense if we look long term.
Sure, short term its fine but I would compare it to stock - you need to know when to get rid off it
And iMac is just like that. Its a great machine (I've just returned the tier 3 model and it was awesome) but its old design, old specs, pricey, and most of all, its Intel. So great use for now but in about 2 years (or so) its probably wise to get rid off it. After that, it might be hard to sell it for decent price but that is yet to be seen.
So if one is buying iMac now knowing all the risks then that is fine and fair but thats where the importance lies.
I'll probably get one myself next month after the show the AS product.
But I dont' want to be stuck with G5 kinda experience when the new Mac Pro 2008 is so awesome
That is literally what I know from history and that is what I'm taking into account now.
Mac Pro 2008 was my first Mac (8core) and it was such an awesome machine. G5 was literally dead
So yeah, history will repeat itself. We just don't know to what extend but it will. Hence why his DOA comment.
Intel isn’t dying. Apple isn’t about to drop support on hardware released two months ago. Apple could very easily mandate that any future app update or development on the macOS platform must support Intel and Arm. It wouldn’t be the first time they set a requirement that developers had to follow.
Plus, what determines developers interest is not the latest chip or even the latest architecture. It’s the install base. Even in fiver years, we’ll have millions of macs still running on Intel. It will still be a large enough audience to serve and I wouldn’t be surprised if Apple continued to support developers by making it easier to write for Intel. It isn’t rocket science.
Transition to Intel happened a decade ago. Technology looked very different back them. Apple’s market share was a fraction of what it is today. Plus, and especially in enterprise, there is software and entire network infrastructures that support Intel macs but not ARM based iPads. It will take years for a large company to transition to a new support architecture. We are years away from that happening. By then, we’ll all be ready for a new Mac.
I’ve seen a few of his videos and have heard plenty of bogus “advice” and misguided opinions coming from him, with the iMac being dead on arrival being one of them.
Thats actually very good point about the windows machine. Haven't thought about it that way
Thank you
Someone mentioned that Intel iMac will have bad resale value. I think one could as easily argue that it will have a much better than average resale value relative to older models prior to transition. It will be the most powerful iMac you can get that will still run booth camp. For some people, that will be more important than a slightly faster ARM Mac.
Maybe.
As for rules - that can only work for the App store. Outside App store Apple has no control or even power.
Anyway, we will see. I can see both scenarios and to be honest I don't like this situation but I guess we will soon find out a first glimpse so will be easier to judge where we are going.
I feel AS will be insanely good but probably will take at least 2-3 years before we can really celebrate. Until then its going to be a weird period for us as users.
As for rules - that can only work for the App store. Outside App store Apple has no control or even power.
Anyway, we will see. I can see both scenarios and to be honest I don't like this situation but I guess we will soon find out a first glimpse so will be easier to judge where we are going.
I feel AS will be insanely good but probably will take at least 2-3 years before we can really celebrate. Until then its going to be a weird period for us as users.
Certain PS3 models had backwards compatibility to not only PSX but also PS2 games.
They are still the highest priced models. Yet people could have just gotten one/two other consoles.
Adding Windows was a big deal, so is cutting windows. Not to everyone. But if you pay 2000-4000€ on a computer with dated parts it's awfully nice to just be able to run a different OS that makes it possible to use that dated hardware more useful for gaming or even allows you to also work with windows exclusive software without buying another computer that needs it's own monitor. (well, at least arm could bring back using an iMac as target monitor i guess.)
I don’t think it will be as weird as you fear, but who knows, right? Apple has a lot to lose here if things go sideways.
You will be able to run windows on AS eventually. Craig mentioned something on that topic so I wouldn't worry about windows
An installed base of 100 million Intel Macs isn't going away in two years. So despite 'vague' promises from Apple saying they'll support Intel Macs 'for years' not inspiring confidence. Actually churning over 100 million Intel Macs into AS Macs at the current sales rate will take about 5 years.
Minimum.
Anybody who needs an Intel Mac right now knows who they are. Any direct replacement is 'some time' away.
Substantially, this iMac is excellent from the cpu, gpu and the ssd and that venerable 5k screen.
It has its weak spots thermally and Linus was balanced in his criticism saying the Apple had tried a few thermal tricks to manage the 'hot' 14++++ cpu Intel supplied them with. Everything short of supplying what we actually needed. The iMac Pro's cooling set up to manage that power.
And he had a pop at the oil tanker bezels. But they're 8 years old now. iStale.
...and the 'Moon Logic' BTO pricing that even Mac devotees have questioned for the performance return.
The current 2020 (much waited for) has its victories (a good many of them proving substantial in performance) but we can't gloss over the areas where Apple's 'legendary' design prowess could have done better.
And FireGuy is right. You'll still have a kick az Windows machine, ironically, that will probably be supported longer than Apple does the Mac partition of it.
Go price up a 5k monitor, a 10 core cpu, fast SSD drives, 32 gigs of RAM and a 16 gig 5700XT. It won't be cheap...or as svelte as the iMac or double as a Mac/PC of the same capability.
Azrael.
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I hope he did not mentioned the ARM version of windows which is useless in practice.
There is zero iGPU omitted from Ice Lake. In fact, the iGPU got bigger in the Ice Lake U series. ( there is an upcoming Xeon SP and W class CPU packages that are technically Ice Lake also but those packages never had any iGPU so it isn't omitted relatively to the previous iteration. ) . Cannon Lake ( the first 10nm implementation produced in a modest production and quite limited distribution) had a disabled iGPU. That was a different 10nm iteration, Ice Lake's is different. In terms of overall performance the 10nm iGPUs is substantially better than anything Kaby Lake had.
Slower turbo. Really wouldn't matter much to the iGPU. Also, again not particularly tied to 10nm because Intel uncorked that issue in Gen 11 ( Tiger Lake) 10nm Super Fin.
There is no mainstream 10nm desktop CPU so moving Comet Lake (or Kaby Lake ) so moving from 14nm to 5nm would be about a 3 generation shift . Expecting nothing to happen there would be dubious. If Intel kept the clocks the same you'd see 3 generations of power savings.
Refactor the current ( or Kaby Lake) 14nm implementation would bring substantive changes.
Sorry but the overall architecture design here has nothing to do with it. With a 3 generation hop in fabrication the chip die would be in the zone of less than half the size it is now and the voltages in some internal locations would be lower. The distances that signals need to travel shorter ( lower aggregate resistance ) and lower pressure of 'flogging' the electrons (voltage). They'd have to adjust for some leakage issues that are different, but should see an overall substantial reduction in power consumed. If only got 6% power reduction with each generation that would take 65W down to 54W. A conservative 10% reduction per generation would be 47W.
TSMC 16nm to 7nm power reduction?
"... Compared to TSMC's 16nm FinFET Plus (16FF+) technology, TSMC's 7nm technology delivers around 35% speed gain at the same power, or around 65% power reduction at the same speed. .."
If Intel didn't move the clocks get a power reduction by moving to TSMC 5nm is not a problem. Not even close to a problem. Intel's current clocks are aggressive so perhaps wouldn't get all of that 65% (even before got to 5nm) but even at 32% would be a big jump all buy itself.
The bigger issue with moving the current i9 "as is" down to 5nm is that Intel would probably never do it. They would probably add stuff to the implementation and/or up the clocks so that maximal power savings wouldn't ship in a retail product.
Apple is getting a major advantage paying higher prices for a more bleeding edge fab. If was an even playing field in terms of fabrication the Intel folks would have something far more competitive. x86 isn't the intractable boat anchor folks try to make it out to be. It has some relative downsides to the freedom Apple has of dumping legacy opcodes at higher flexibility, but access to a smaller fab resolutions does substantively help Apple. ( there is less , super magical pixie dust than some folks want to attribute the Apple Silicon implementations. )
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Really didn't mention Windows at all. Just another reference to the Linux demos they did and to virtualization in general. Windows on ARM does run virtual machine on other ARM implementations so the presumptions are that it will work. The Virtual Machine will present a more mainstream boot context ( virtual UEFI) and there is an assumption Apple hasn't removed any necessary ARM 32 opcodes (or other opcodes that iOS and macOS have deemed obsolete )
Some folks find Windows on ARM useful. That is all Apple needs. They aren't out to be the best possible Windows system implementer for the most people ( or the folks with the oldest possible collection of odd-ball, legacy Win32 apps and plug-ins) . Apple is out to sell Macs first and foremost. The forward looking Windows apps shouldn't have much of a problem running in a virtual machine with the Windows on ARM adjustments Microsoft made this year and that are on track to roll out in 1H 2021.
It will be much longer than that. Apple often brags about 10-20% of the folks buying Macs are Windows switchers. All of those sales do not directly make any x86 Mac go away at all . There are also a decent fraction of "hand me down" Mac systems ( Family buys new Mac and child/spouse/partner gets an older one).
The other major factor is going to be how long the transition is. There is more than decent chance Apple would do a "Big Bang" transition. If new Intel Macs ( e.g., iMac Pro and Mac Pro ) are sold into 2022 then the clock on Intel vintage countdown clock won't even start for more than 12 months from now.
It probably depends upon what the uptick of Apple Silicon (ASi) Macs are . If it doesn't dramatically boost sales then it will take longer. 3-4 years ago Apple didn't have anywhere near 100M Mac user base. The user base has been growing in part because folks are not upgrading as fast as they once where. Going from 70-80M to 100M was not all "hyper growth" of Macs. Using the systems long is part of it. ( more folks buying in used market , squating longer, multiple Mac locations , etc. )
If ASi Macs come with about the same prices that Macs have now then there probably won't be any hypergrowth to offset the number of folks extending system service lifetime.
There are Apple drivers in the Windows "Boot Camp" OS instance. Windows 10 support doesn't necessarily extend past the original system vendors support of the system. Windows 10 is pragmatically coupled to the system it is sold on. Probably will be able to eek out more time that Apple allows for Intel macOS because can get by with "happens to work" generic Windows 10 drivers if necessary, but may loose Mac specific functions. ( bigger deal for custom mac trackpads than more generic iMac frame. )
With the T2 will need to keep around a macOS recovery (and macOS ) instance if every have to manage the boot configurations. [ Apple bundles firmware upgrades with the macOS upgrades so extremely likely both stop will Apple de-support. ]
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