Will there ever be a new large iMac (Pro)?

[deconstruct60]

I think it was related to bootcamp when he asked him. So I guess thats that

Boot Camp specifically? Fedgerighi basically said it was dead on Apple Silicon (ASi) Macs.

"... Some of the more interesting bits of the discussion include thoughts on all of the different ways Apple has now for developers to build Mac apps, including Catalyst, UIKit, AppKit, and SwiftUI, as well as Apple's emphasis on virtualization with Boot Camp going away for Apple Silicon-based Macs. ..."

Craig Federighi and Greg Joswiak Discuss Apple Silicon Transition, Lack of Boot Camp Support, and More

Daring Fireball's John Gruber typically hosts a live episode of his The Talk Show podcast during the week of WWDC, featuring high-level Apple...

www.macrumors.com

There is a decent chance there is no native UEFI boot environment on ASi Macs. Which means it won't be like the 2006 ( PPC -> x86 ) era transition at all as the whole boot infrastructure isn't there for Windows. Unlike the BIOS emulation hack that Apple pushed into EFI , they just aren't following the mainstream boot tools at all. So it won't be something that would get added later in their copious spare time when the initial drama of the transition tasks are over for native macOS stuff.

Virtual machines and more extensive io-MMU mapping is likely the path Apple is going to go down. There will at least b a macOS hypervisor down under any possible Windows solution coming. IF they can virtually map down GPU support then perhaps there won't necessarily be a huge 3D emulation overhead , but I wouldn't look for that on "day one" ( or perhaps even first , second iteration on ASi implementations ).

If Apple was using a modestly modified secure boot UEFI then perhaps there is a window to backslide on Windows bootcamp. ( The T2 Macs due a handoff of a copy of UEFI to the x86 processors. Apple doesn't need that to get their ASi up and going. Can get going very close to the same process that T2 got going with: iBoot and them perhaps a tiny shim to get external/internal macOS selected and going out of a verified APFS container. ) . Some things Apple has mentioned though suggest that UEFI isn't there anymore. (e.g. the GPU accelerated login screen (probably System Recovery( lightweight macOS) in "login mode" ) , iPhone equivalent boot security by default , etc. )

P.S. By 2-4 months after ASi Mac start selling it is highly likely that Apple would have sold more "ARM", legacy laptop personal computers than Microsoft had sold over the previous 8 years. It isn't like they are going to be a "small fish in a big Windows pond" on ARM. Unless Microsoft dramatically gets their act together in the next 2-3 months ( e.g. x88-64 -> arm64 conversion and newer Cortex X1 systems ) it is going to be the other way around on this transition by mid 2021.

There is little reason for Apple to bend over backwards to maximize support for Windows on ARM when that OS is going to be playing catch up. This is a huge , temporary opportunity for Apple to drive more switchers from Windows to macOS. ( not going to suck up double digit Windows market percentages of folks over but will continue to get decent numbers to offset the larger number of folks squatting on older Macs for longer periods of time. )

 

[filmak]

Really didn't mention Windows at all. Just another reference to the Linux demos they did and to virtualization in general. Windows on ARM does run virtual machine on other ARM implementations so the presumptions are that it will work. The Virtual Machine will present a more mainstream boot context ( virtual UEFI) and there is an assumption Apple hasn't removed any necessary ARM 32 opcodes (or other opcodes that iOS and macOS have deemed obsolete )

Some folks find Windows on ARM useful. That is all Apple needs. They aren't out to be the best possible Windows system implementer for the most people ( or the folks with the oldest possible collection of odd-ball, legacy Win32 apps and plug-ins) . Apple is out to sell Macs first and foremost. The forward looking Windows apps shouldn't have much of a problem running in a virtual machine with the Windows on ARM adjustments Microsoft made this year and that are on track to roll out in 1H 2021.

Will they make it possible to run 64 bit (intel) apps?
If yes I wonder about the speed penalty...

 

[filmak]

Boot Camp specifically? Fedgerighi basically said it was dead on Apple Silicon (ASi) Macs.

"... Some of the more interesting bits of the discussion include thoughts on all of the different ways Apple has now for developers to build Mac apps, including Catalyst, UIKit, AppKit, and SwiftUI, as well as Apple's emphasis on virtualization with Boot Camp going away for Apple Silicon-based Macs. ..."

Craig Federighi and Greg Joswiak Discuss Apple Silicon Transition, Lack of Boot Camp Support, and More

Daring Fireball's John Gruber typically hosts a live episode of his The Talk Show podcast during the week of WWDC, featuring high-level Apple...

www.macrumors.com

There is a decent chance there is no native UEFI boot environment on ASi Macs. Which means it won't be like the 2006 ( PPC -> x86 ) era transition at all as the whole boot infrastructure isn't there for Windows. Unlike the BIOS emulation hack that Apple pushed into EFI , they just aren't following the mainstream boot tools at all. So it won't be something that would get added later in their copious spare time when the initial drama of the transition tasks are over for native macOS stuff.

Virtual machines and more extensive io-MMU mapping is likely the path Apple is going to go down. There will at least b a macOS hypervisor down under any possible Windows solution coming. IF they can virtually map down GPU support then perhaps there won't necessarily be a huge 3D emulation overhead , but I wouldn't look for that on "day one" ( or perhaps even first , second iteration on ASi implementations ).

If Apple was using a modestly modified secure boot UEFI then perhaps there is a window to backslide on Windows bootcamp. ( The T2 Macs due a handoff of a copy of UEFI to the x86 processors. Apple doesn't need that to get their ASi up and going. Can get going very close to the same process that T2 got going with: iBoot and them perhaps a tiny shim to get external/internal macOS selected and going out of a verified APFS container. ) . Some things Apple has mentioned though suggest that UEFI isn't there anymore. (e.g. the GPU accelerated login screen (probably System Recovery( lightweight macOS) in "login mode" ) , iPhone equivalent boot security by default , etc. )

P.S. By 2-4 months after ASi Mac start selling it is highly likely that Apple would have sold more "ARM", legacy laptop personal computers than Microsoft had sold over the previous 8 years. It isn't like they are going to be a "small fish in a big Windows pond" on ARM. Unless Microsoft dramatically gets their act together in the next 2-3 months ( e.g. x88-64 -> arm64 conversion and newer Cortex X1 systems ) it is going to be the other way around on this transition by mid 2021.

There is little reason for Apple to bend over backwards to maximize support for Windows on ARM when that OS is going to be playing catch up.

Thanks for the info.

 

[deconstruct60]

Will they make it possible to run 64 bit (intel) apps?

That is operating system level dependent (since practically all apps have large dependencies on OS libraries) .
For macOS that is largely what Rosetta 2 covers with some narrow exceptions. One are the AVX instructions and also the virtualization opcodes. So no Apple isn't going to emulate x86 visualizers.

For Windows 10 that is up to Microsoft. MS has 32-bit coverage. Reportedly they are working on 64-bit, Win32 coverage now ( and possible release next year ).

If yes I wonder about the speed penalty...

Doing x86-64 on Apple Silicon works pretty good because Apple has some big processors and relatively (for Smartphones) big caches. Doing x86-64 on mainstream smartphone processors from 2-3 years ago (at this point) is far more problematical.

It probably won't be a problem on big ARM Neoverse server processors. Windows on ARM will probably see some decent growth in Microsoft's Azure ARM instances while the laptop situation gets sorted out with more reasonable host processors later.

 

[iMi]

It will be much longer than that. Apple often brags about 10-20% of the folks buying Macs are Windows switchers. All of those sales do not directly make any x86 Mac go away at all . There are also a decent fraction of "hand me down" Mac systems ( Family buys new Mac and child/spouse/partner gets an older one).

The other major factor is going to be how long the transition is. There is more than decent chance Apple would do a "Big Bang" transition. If new Intel Macs ( e.g., iMac Pro and Mac Pro ) are sold into 2022 then the clock on Intel vintage countdown clock won't even start for more than 12 months from now.

It probably depends upon what the uptick of Apple Silicon (ASi) Macs are . If it doesn't dramatically boost sales then it will take longer. 3-4 years ago Apple didn't have anywhere near 100M Mac user base. The user base has been growing in part because folks are not upgrading as fast as they once where. Going from 70-80M to 100M was not all "hyper growth" of Macs. Using the systems long is part of it. ( more folks buying in used market , squating longer, multiple Mac locations , etc. )

If ASi Macs come with about the same prices that Macs have now then there probably won't be any hypergrowth to offset the number of folks extending system service lifetime.



There are Apple drivers in the Windows "Boot Camp" OS instance. Windows 10 support doesn't necessarily extend past the original system vendors support of the system. Windows 10 is pragmatically coupled to the system it is sold on. Probably will be able to eek out more time that Apple allows for Intel macOS because can get by with "happens to work" generic Windows 10 drivers if necessary, but may loose Mac specific functions. ( bigger deal for custom mac trackpads than more generic iMac frame. )

With the T2 will need to keep around a macOS recovery (and macOS ) instance if every have to manage the boot configurations. [ Apple bundles firmware upgrades with the macOS upgrades so extremely likely both stop will Apple de-support. ]
[automerge]1600525537[/automerge]

The only things out in the wild in greater number than Intel macs are lawyers eager to chip away at Apple’s coffers. Apple has publically stated they will support Intel Macs for “many years in the future.” If they were to mismanage the app stores or effectively make Intel Macs obsolete, there would be no shortage of lawsuits. It would not be in Apple’s interest to abandon 100’s of millions of devices. How many of those left behind in such way would buy another Mac? And that’s before we talk about commercial customers — corporate, universities, research companies.

So, there is zero concern, in my opinion, that Intel Macs are “dead on arrival.”

 

[Alwis]

So, there is zero concern, in my opinion, that Intel Macs are “dead on arrival.”

I agree, otherwise I would not have bought the 2020 iMac. Looking e.g. at Linux shows, that it is possible to support different architectures in an operating system with reasonable effort. Large parts of the OS are architecture independent anyway.

More likely will be, that some new features will only work on the Apple Silicone based Macs, as e.g. Sidecar ist not working on my 2020 iMac.

After the „many years to come“ announcement I expect new macOS versions fir intel based macs at least for 5 years from now, probably 5 years from the time the last Intel Mac was sold. Security updates for at least 2 more years, maybe more.

At that time I probably want to buy an Apple Silicone iMac anyway.

 

[iMi]

I agree, otherwise I would not have bought the 2020 iMac. Looking e.g. at Linux shows, that it is possible to support different architectures in an operating system with reasonable effort. Large parts of the OS are architecture independent anyway.

More likely will be, that some new features will only work on the Apple Silicone based Macs, as e.g. Sidecar ist not working on my 2020 iMac.

After the „many years to come“ announcement I expect new macOS versions fir intel based macs at least for 5 years from now, probably 5 years from the time the last Intel Mac was sold. Security updates for at least 2 more years, maybe more.

At that time I probably want to buy an Apple Silicone iMac anyway.

Sidecar should work just fine on your Mac. It has for me.

 

[scotttnz]

I agree, otherwise I would not have bought the 2020 iMac. Looking e.g. at Linux shows, that it is possible to support different architectures in an operating system with reasonable effort. Large parts of the OS are architecture independent anyway.

More likely will be, that some new features will only work on the Apple Silicone based Macs, as e.g. Sidecar ist not working on my 2020 iMac.

After the „many years to come“ announcement I expect new macOS versions fir intel based macs at least for 5 years from now, probably 5 years from the time the last Intel Mac was sold. Security updates for at least 2 more years, maybe more.

At that time I probably want to buy an Apple Silicone iMac anyway.

Sidecar should work just fine on your Mac. It has for me.

Works for me too.

 

[Alwis]

Sidecar should work just fine on your Mac. It has for me.

Sorry, that was my mistake! I meant my old 2014 iMac, which has Catalina installed but does not support sidecar. I expect the same with the current Intel Macs, at some point the will still get macOS updates but will not support all features.

On my 2020 iMac Sidecar runs fine!

 

[iPadified]

I found one drawback with my new shiny iMac: it makes my MP2013+TB display and MBP annoying to use. No noise to talk about, large sharp display so I can scale the interface (eyes is not what the has been...). It is just a very pleasant experience.

iPP 12.9 gen 1-3 survives the iMac 2020 challenge quite fine. I though I had too many devices but in COVID 19 times partial streaming and lecturing requires a few devices to handle.

 

[Freida]

Why do you have so many devices? Wouldn't it be easier to sell some of them? ;-)

I found one drawback with my new shiny iMac: it makes my MP2013+TB display and MBP annoying to use. No noise to talk about, large sharp display so I can scale the interface (eyes is not what the has been...). It is just a very pleasant experience.

iPP 12.9 gen 1-3 survives the iMac 2020 challenge quite fine. I though I had too many devices but in COVID 19 times partial streaming and lecturing requires a few devices to handle.

 

[iPadified]

Why do you have so many devices? Wouldn't it be easier to sell some of them? ;-)

MP and MPB and two iPads are owned by the University. MP will work for years yet tied to my desk and MBP will do mobile lab work. Two iPad are useful in teaching/streaming. MBP could replace one one of the iPads, if so it will likely give the gen 1 to the graphics department. The MBP is heavy though.

iMac and gen2 12.9 is for private use. If the iPad had several logins, I could do with one iPad. Having work in my bed or on my sofa is not desirable. I need to switch off and seeing Microsoft apps does not help... iMac is better as I use different login for work and home/private use.

Running Blender GPU render add 2.4h export of a movie simultaneously turned on the fans as expected. However, the noise was less disturbing than the fan noise when having a zoom meeting on MBP. MP2013 has higher idle noise than the iMac but much lower noise under load.

 

[Freida]

I admire your patience with this. I got headache just reading all this and got so lost.

MP and MPB and two iPads are owned by the University. MP will work for years yet tied to my desk and MBP will do mobile lab work. Two iPad are useful in teaching/streaming. MBP could replace one one of the iPads, if so it will likely give the gen 1 to the graphics department. The MBP is heavy though.

iMac and gen2 12.9 is for private use. If the iPad had several logins, I could do with one iPad. Having work in my bed or on my sofa is not desirable. I need to switch off and seeing Microsoft apps does not help... iMac is better as I use different login for work and home/private use.

Running Blender GPU render add 2.4h export of a movie simultaneously turned on the fans as expected. However, the noise was less disturbing than the fan noise when having a zoom meeting on MBP. MP2013 has higher idle noise than the iMac but much lower noise under load.

 

[iPadified]

I admire your patience with this. I got headache just reading all this and got so lost.

?

 

[fireguy286]

10.15.7 out today with a fix for the 5700 XT. (though I personally haven't had the issue so far)

 

[anthony13]

The update did indeed fix my white line issue! The 'corner' glitch remains, but I barely ever notice that. Also I ran Novabench after update and my GPU score was 997, way higher than my pre-update 558 score.

 

[fireguy286]

The update did indeed fix my white line issue! The 'corner' glitch remains, but I barely ever notice that. Also I ran Novabench after update and my GPU score was 997, way higher than my pre-update 558 score.

I am not much of a benchmark guy, but I am not surprised, as my system is noticeably snappier and more fluid at everything and haven't heard the fan once yet, so there are definitely solid under the hood improvements here. Catalina finally feels usable and as fluid as W10 IMO. Nice set up for Big Sur next month.

 

[iPadified]

?

The other day, my colleague wondered if there was anything left on the Apple store. He had a point!

 

[Kjs100]

Leaker suggesting new type iMac has entered production. Could be a 24" ARM iMac is on its way.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1309398074733674498

 

[CWallace]

Leaker suggesting new type iMac has entered production. Could be a 24" ARM iMac is on its way.

Someone translated the banner and it is evidently a "prayer" that Foxconn can win more Mac production business from Apple (the majority of Macs are currently assembled by Quanta) in the coming year.

 

[TheTrueZoltan!]

3rd pic looks more like a satanic ritual.

 

[Kjs100]

Someone translated the banner and it is evidently a "prayer" that Foxconn can win more Mac production business from Apple (the majority of Macs are currently assembled by Quanta) in the coming year.

Elsewhere it's reported-

The whole text translates to “Mac (l) iMac new product mass production launch ceremony.”

สล็อตเว็บตรง เว็บแท้ 100% เว็บสล็อตวอเลท Auto ฝากถอน ไม่มีขั้นต่ำ

สล็อตเว็บตรง เปิดให้บริการ 24 ชั่วโมง ฝากถอนไว รองรับทรูวอเลท ไม่มีขั้นต่ำ จ่ายจริงทุกยอดเล่นไม่มีการโกง 100%

the8-bit.com

 

[DesertNomad]

The update did indeed fix my white line issue! The 'corner' glitch remains, but I barely ever notice that. Also I ran Novabench after update and my GPU score was 997, way higher than my pre-update 558 score.

What exactly is the "corner" glitch?

I am receiving a 16" MBP tomorrow but as I plan to hook it to an XDR and 27" Thunderbolt, it may not work well with these external displays according to reports (though I ordered the 5600M GPU which seems to be better). If I need to switch, I will opt for a 27" iMac.... so now that 10.15.7 fixed the white line glitch, what else remains?

 

[anthony13]

What exactly is the "corner" glitch?

I am receiving a 16" MBP tomorrow but as I plan to hook it to an XDR and 27" Thunderbolt, it may not work well with these external displays according to reports (though I ordered the 5600M GPU which seems to be better). If I need to switch, I will opt for a 27" iMac.... so now that 10.15.7 fixed the white line glitch, what else remains?

The corner glitch refers to another common problem iMac users with the 5700XT were having. I dont have a screen shot on hand, but essentially there was a graphical glitch where the rounded corners of any given finder window would essentially fill in and square off with blank pixels for a second or two intermittently.

 

[DesertNomad]

The corner glitch refers to another common problem iMac users with the 5700XT were having. I dont have a screen shot on hand, but essentially there was a graphical glitch where the rounded corners of any given finder window would essentially fill in and square off with blank pixels for a second or two intermittently.

So I gather this is not fixed yet in 10.15.7?