Will there ever be a new large iMac (Pro)?

[CWallace]

So I was pondering the Apple 'desktop' range and a thought occurred to me; what is the actual point of the iMac Pro? Low end consumer has the Mac mini, middle tier has iMac then "Pros" have the Mac Pro.

Back in 2017, there were multiple use cases where an iMac Pro's additional CPU cores, GPU performance, and higher memory and storage thresholds made it a viable upgrade option from the iMac. The iMac now gaining 10 cores and Vega 48 graphics narrows that case, but an iMac Pro refresh would still offer more cores, more memory, more storage and better GPUs.

Why not consolidate iMac and iMac Pro in to one line covering low-high use cases? This simplifies the line up, means there's no overlap, and it's then easier to reconcile updates rather than the strange staggered way it's been done.

While Intel does offer Core series CPUs with more than 10 cores (up to 18), they are on a different socket and chipset than the i5 and i9 used in the iMac, so Apple would still need to stock two separate system boards like they do now with the iMac and iMac Pro. So might as well just keep the two models separate and distinct.

 

[krell100]

Yes that's true, but if you're going to spend $10K on an iMac then the jump to $12-13K for the expandability and cooling of a Pro (assuming you bring your own monitor) makes the iMac Pro seem, well, unnecessary if you see what I mean. If I was playing in that league ($$$) it would be a no-brainer to jump up.

And back when the iMac Pro was released there was no Mac Pro option so it made sense. Now not so much.. IMHO of course.

 

[Abazigal]

So I was pondering the Apple 'desktop' range and a thought occurred to me; what is the actual point of the iMac Pro? Low end consumer has the Mac mini, middle tier has iMac then "Pros" have the Mac Pro. Why not consolidate iMac and iMac Pro in to one line covering low-high use cases? This simplifies the line up, means there's no overlap, and it's then easier to reconcile updates rather than the strange staggered way it's been done.

As nice a machine as it is the iMac pro just doesn't seem to (me) to have much of a future; but using the cooling tech in a consolidated line would make much more sense, especially so if they offer a high end CPU/GPU in space grey, I mean who would then buy an iMac Pro?

It feels like a psychological move. The "pro" branding will make it instantly stand out to consumers seeking more computing power, rather than expecting them to go to the iMac and max out all the specs.

 

[CWallace]

Yes that's true, but if you're going to spend $10K on an iMac then the jump to $12-13K for the expandability and cooling of a Pro (assuming you bring your own monitor) makes the iMac Pro seem, well, unnecessary if you see what I mean. If I was playing in that league ($$$) it would be a no-brainer to jump up.

I agree that if you were someone who in 2018 was buying an 14 or 18-core iMac Pro with 256GB of RAM and a 4TB SSD you are very likely looking hard at the Mac Pro in 2020 because for a bit less money you can get a Mac Pro with 16 cores, 192GB of RAM, a W5700XT card and 2 TB SSD and have the benefit of future expandability.

However, I still think there is a market for the iMac Pro as an upgrade option for those looking at maxed-out iMacs.

Intel is slashing the prices on the upgrade W-2200 series Xeon CPUs used in the iMac Pro, so we could see the iMac Pro starting at 12 cores (instead of the current 8) and the BTO upgrade pricing for 14 and 18 cores should be significantly less than they are now (Intel retail between 8 cores and 18 is $666 so even if Apple went for a 100% markup, it would be half of the current $2400 markup to go from 8 to 18 cores on the current iMac Pro).

Add in the additional RAM and storage options over the base iMac plus a (rumored) 5K MiniLED display, more ports and better cooling and it would still likely appeal even more to high-end iMac buyers than the current model does.

And with significantly cheaper CPU upgrade options, that would increase the pricing delta to the Mac Pro. So that 16C/192GB Mac Pro no longer looks like the reasonable alternative it does today.

 

[krell100]

Agree that if they were to cut the pricing on the iMac Pro significantly then the value proposition vs a Mac Pro keeps the iMac pro in the game. But if the consumer iMac gets all the updates some see here (better cooling, top end CPU/GPU) then again, that puts the iMac Pro in to a weird niche where it's likely to be no better than a much cheaper but essentially the same iMac; well apart from Xeon perhaps but really, even most Pro's don't need a Xeon processor so much. Interesting...

 

[Freida]

Please, you are not serious, are you?
Maybe read last 10 pages so you are up to speed

I’m coming up to speed on the currrent iMacs while helping a neighbor configure a 2019 iMac to replace her 2011 iMac. She is a high-level amateur photographer. But doesn’t do video. So I was looking at the 3.7GHz i5 w/ 8GB RAM and a 512GB- 1TB SSD. She would immediately add 32GB of 3rd party RAM and an external SSD. BUT….

Apple - Earliest delivery is Jun 29th-Jul 6th
B&H - Special Order 2-4 weeks

I haven’t found ANY 27” iMacs in stock. Is this delay common these days or is it an indication of a refresh/update in the next 2-4 weeks (e.g. at the WWDC)?

GetRealBro

 

[fokmik]

The invite itself has a really good clue about the redesign with the Hello mention.

What do you mean?

 

[krell100]

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[fokmik]

I think they removed the “hello” part
Or its just for invitations?

 

[krell100]

Not sure, it's on the Apple news page:
https://www.apple.com/au/newsroom/2...ks-off-in-june-with-an-all-new-online-format/

 

[iPadified]

Agree that if they were to cut the pricing on the iMac Pro significantly then the value proposition vs a Mac Pro keeps the iMac pro in the game. But if the consumer iMac gets all the updates some see here (better cooling, top end CPU/GPU) then again, that puts the iMac Pro in to a weird niche where it's likely to be no better than a much cheaper but essentially the same iMac; well apart from Xeon perhaps but really, even most Pro's don't need a Xeon processor so much. Interesting...

I think the iMac Pro sits nicely between iMac and MP. It is a nice little tidy and powerful package for those who need it. I think it is surprising that 18 core iMac Pro is less than 2 fold lower in CPU performance than an 28-core MP. It is the graphics that stands out in the MP and not all fill the machine with Vega Duo cards. I would not be surprised if the iMac Pro remains in the lineup but I agree, it is squeezed. If you also want an all Apple setup, the MP comes with an associated cost of $5000-$7000 for the XDR screen making it less squeezed.

Furthermore, we do not know what is happening with the iMac. We assume/want that it will use high end parts (125W i9 and a 5700XT) with iMac Pro cooling but we do not know that. An iMac using low power parts that satisfies the home and office use would leave room for an iMac Pro with miniLED and beefed up everything else for video production and MP for real high end applications. It is however questionable if there are customers enough to sustain two "Pro" lines.

I wish Apple stopped using "Pro" as label as it is confused with profession and professional. "Pro" just means more powerful and reliable components. Most of us do work (=Pro) using "i5/i7/i9" illustrating how out of step the "Pro" labels is.

 

[DrRadon]

Yes that's true, but if you're going to spend $10K on an iMac then the jump to $12-13K for the expandability and cooling of a Pro (assuming you bring your own monitor) makes the iMac Pro seem, well, unnecessary if you see what I mean. If I was playing in that league ($$$) it would be a no-brainer to jump up.

Wellcome to the wonderful world of marketing. Prices are designed for you to exactly do that. And than you sit there with the MacPro instead of the iMac Pro and realize, well i need a Monitor, now i do want to round it of with Apple Quality and Design Monitor, another 5k gone, and now i need a stand for that monitor, another 1k gone.

Thats how pricing works. Everywhere. Even in the supermarket they have super cheap and super expensive stuff to essentially drive sales of the mid price range instead of people just going for the cheap product. And people that want a little bit extra... well they can alway go for organic, but than there is cheap store brand organic... mid priced organic... and hipster designed high price organic and suddenly you end up paying 3€ for Almond Milk instead of 99 cent.
And when you go Linux on the Almond milk you realize that it's actually just 97% water and 3% almond flower, you could mix it for single digit cents but would have to let go of the Oatly look.

 

[patrick.a]

I think the iMac Pro sits nicely between iMac and MP. It is a nice little tidy and powerful package for those who need it. I think it is surprising that 18 core iMac Pro is less than 2 fold lower in CPU performance than an 28-core MP. It is the graphics that stands out in the MP and not all fill the machine with Vega Duo cards. I would not be surprised if the iMac Pro remains in the lineup but I agree, it is squeezed. If you also want an all Apple setup, the MP comes with an associated cost of $5000-$7000 for the XDR screen making it less squeezed.

Furthermore, we do not know what is happening with the iMac. We assume/want that it will use high end parts (125W i9 and a 5700XT) with iMac Pro cooling but we do not know that. An iMac using low power parts that satisfies the home and office use would leave room for an iMac Pro with miniLED and beefed up everything else for video production and MP for real high end applications. It is however questionable if there are customers enough to sustain two "Pro" lines.

I wish Apple stopped using "Pro" as label as it is confused with profession and professional. "Pro" just means more powerful and reliable components. Most of us do work (=Pro) using "i5/i7/i9" illustrating how out of step the "Pro" labels is.

Yes, I agree very much. I'm an architect and do work with CAD but also 3D and rendering. All I need is a machine with as much CPU power as possible for that. It doesn't make sense to pay the premium for the MP or the XDR because I don't need 4 GPUs nor crazy HRD possibilities. The iMP with its Retina screen would be perfect for that but as a "Pro" I'm not going to buy a three year old machine that hasn't been updated since its release even though newer and cheaper CPUs would have been available.

I really hope Apple doesn't just update the iMac at WWDC and leaves the iMP where it is for at least another half year. Didn't they promise to take better care of their "Pro" customers?

 

[DrRadon]

I wish Apple stopped using "Pro" as label as it is confused with profession and professional. "Pro" just means more powerful and reliable components. Most of us do work (=Pro) using "i5/i7/i9" illustrating how out of step the "Pro" labels is.

While it is a marketing term slapped on i actually think no one that is not a Pro needs more than a normal iPad, a MacBook Air, a iPhone SE. - If you actually need a iPhone 11 Pro to Film and Edit it's amazing that the device exists.
As Apple dos not go for the gaming crowd, and probably will target it's gaming on Apple Arcade very soon, it's very hard to argue that the higher priced iMacs are still for casual users. No one should be spending 3000€ or more on an iMac to play "Planet Zoo" on mid settings.

That sort of brings me to your point about bringing the iMac Pros cooling to the normal iMac line... i feel like it would make heaps of sense if Apple just split the iMac LineUp in Pro and "Casual" (like with MBAir and MBPro) because no one that is not a pro buys a Vega 48 iMac. - But i don't see it happening right now with the iMac Pro being softly rumored to not upgrade before the end of this year.
Chances are that iMac will overpower the base Level iMacPro at a lower price. Thats A-OK because iMac Pro is a 2017 model... but what would justify the iMacPro on store shelfs if the normal iMac came with it's better cooling and 1080p camera? The only selling point would be the BTO model.

I am actually surprised apple in not just slapping some new Hardware in it's iMacPro to keep it somewhat up to date. But i think they always handled their desktop pro like that, "if you buy it now for tons of money, we will not make you feel like you should buy again/should have waited" is the only reason i can come up with.

 

[BacioiuC]

Someone who wants a desktop computer, needs a computer more powerful than the regular iMac, doesn't need or can't afford the Mac Pro - the iMac Pro seems to fit right there in between those two, doesn't it?

I was exactly the target for this approach. Never owned a mac before hand and I needed one for my work which involves doing a lot of graphical intensive tasks and can benefit from a lot of CPU Cores. The Mac Pro fit the bill perfectly but I was lacking a good screen and the regular iMac even with the i9 was almost there but not quite in terms of graphical performance.

So I ended up getting the iMac Pro 8 core + Vega 64 which was the best combination between the two of them. Not sure where apple is taking the iMac Pro from now on but I'm glad I got it. Not as expensive as a Mac Pro + 4k/5K screen yet more powerful than a fully spec'ed iMac.

 

[Mikael H]

Chances are that iMac will overpower the base Level iMacPro at a lower price. Thats A-OK because iMac Pro is a 2017 model... but what would justify the iMacPro on store shelfs if the normal iMac came with it's better cooling and 1080p camera? The only selling point would be the BTO model.

...And the Xeons+ECC memory. I for one don’t lack areas in my professional life where I may accept a small performance hit if I get greater guaranteed stability and whisper quiet operation under load. The big issue with the iMP today is that they haven’t done enough about its GPU capacity since its release.

 

[iPadified]

Yes, I agree very much. I'm an architect and do work with CAD but also 3D and rendering. All I need is a machine with as much CPU power as possible for that. It doesn't make sense to pay the premium for the MP or the XDR because I don't need 4 GPUs nor crazy HRD possibilities. The iMP with its Retina screen would be perfect for that but as a "Pro" I'm not going to buy a three year old machine that hasn't been updated since its release even though newer and cheaper CPUs would have been available.

I really hope Apple doesn't just update the iMac at WWDC and leaves the iMP where it is for at least another half year. Didn't they promise to take better care of their "Pro" customers?

100% with you regarding Apple and "Pro" customers - Apple is not overactive.iMac Pro is poor value now if it going to be updated within 6 month to better screen and, GPU. I think iMac Pro require components not released yet such as the rumoured miniLED which is delayed. Is long as the motherboard can take a new xeon, they should just drop it in. If a new motherboards is needed like the Comet lake CPU, it is a bigger operation.
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While it is a marketing term slapped on i actually think no one that is not a Pro needs more than a normal iPad, a MacBook Air, a iPhone SE. - If you actually need a iPhone 11 Pro to Film and Edit it's amazing that the device exists.
As Apple dos not go for the gaming crowd, and probably will target it's gaming on Apple Arcade very soon, it's very hard to argue that the higher priced iMacs are still for casual users. No one should be spending 3000€ or more on an iMac to play "Planet Zoo" on mid settings.

That sort of brings me to your point about bringing the iMac Pros cooling to the normal iMac line... i feel like it would make heaps of sense if Apple just split the iMac LineUp in Pro and "Casual" (like with MBAir and MBPro) because no one that is not a pro buys a Vega 48 iMac. - But i don't see it happening right now with the iMac Pro being softly rumored to not upgrade before the end of this year.
Chances are that iMac will overpower the base Level iMacPro at a lower price. Thats A-OK because iMac Pro is a 2017 model... but what would justify the iMacPro on store shelfs if the normal iMac came with it's better cooling and 1080p camera? The only selling point would be the BTO model.

I am actually surprised apple in not just slapping some new Hardware in it's iMacPro to keep it somewhat up to date. But i think they always handled their desktop pro like that, "if you buy it now for tons of money, we will not make you feel like you should buy again/should have waited" is the only reason i can come up with.

Here I disagree with you. "Pro" is associated with larger screens (except the iMac 27 inch) and if you want that as hobbyist, you must but the "Pro" label. Hence, I use 12.9 inch iPP and 15.4 inch MBP (the latter is what I intend to replace with an iMac).

I agree, iMac Pro with 10 cores and 64 RAM or 2Tb SSD at the same prices as 8C/32Gb/1Tb would be a good deal (essentially lower the price with $1500. That will see it through to an later update and keep its own value against and top of the line iMac.

 

[Voyageur]

I do not agree when people compare prices for iMac and iMacPro, trying to figure out which is better and appealing to the processor and GPU power only. Server hardware speaks for itself, it becomes outdated much more slowly as well as any equipment from a professional segment. Such a technique is a priori designed for a long load, in which the consumer iMac will either skid or fail more quickly. This means that iMacPro even from 2017 will remain a workable (and valuable when selling) machine for a long time, a very long time. Longer than the 2019th iMac and possibly even the 2020th in its future.

In addition, many people even forget about the iMacPro sound system, an analogue of which, according to some estimates, costs $ 800-900 separately. And so many little things can be found that if you combine everything at once, it turns the iMacPro into a better offer of price/quality. Unless, of course, you are ready to spend money on it.

The situation is similar in comparison with Mac Pro and iMacPro. The first of them is not designed for immediate work out of the box. As DrRadon already said, you will want to buy a display for it and preferably an XDR. And also a foot for it. And you will need a sound, of course appropriate quality. This is another $ 1000-2000 minimum. And another periphery, even storage, because the Mac Pro has only 256 GB for its base price. And the 580X video card, which can more likely be called a stub for the missing GPU slot, in order to put something of your own in the future, and from the 580X make an ashtray or something like that And even so, you get a practically minimal of Mac Pro's platform possibilities, which, in principle, is not designed for use in such a situation. I believe that most take it in a pumped configuration which is much more expensive than the $ 5000.

Summing up the above and the willingness of iMacPro to work out of the box in the minimum configuration, I believe that these are, after all, extremely different price categories of products, and therefore they are slightly overlapping.

 

[getrealbro]

I noticed the shortage as well. Maybe COVID-19 related? I’d rather it’s due to an imminent launch.

We're not sure.

There have been reports that LG is deeply back-logged on the 27" 5K display due to COVID, but BTO iMac Pros seem to be easy enough to get, but not sure if this is for models with the Vega 56 or the Vega 64. ...

Thanks.

It seems prudent for my neighbor to postpone ordering an iMac until the WWDC and hope for a minor refresh with standard 512 SSD, 16GB RAM, etc..

Ironically for many not-so-technical users, being one of the early adopters of a redesigned iMac is not that attractive. For example, the upgrade from El Capitan would be easier if my neighbor could run Mojave while upgrading/replacing legacy 32 bit apps. etc..

GetRealBro

 

[DrRadon]

Here I disagree with you. "Pro" is associated with larger screens (except the iMac 27 inch) and if you want that as hobbyist, you must but the "Pro" label. Hence, I use 12.9 inch iPP and 15.4 inch MBP (the latter is what I intend to replace with an iMac).

The iPhone 11 Pro non MAX is the second smallest phone in Apples Lineup. The normal 11 is bigger than the non MAX 11 pro.

AirPods Pro have no screen at all and i highly doubt that they are used in a Professional context on most occasions because most of Professional work with Headphones is don with Overear Headphones.

MacPro also comes with no screen at all.

 

[sublunar]

100% with you regarding Apple and "Pro" customers - Apple is not overactive.iMac Pro is poor value now if it going to be updated within 6 month to better screen and, GPU. I think iMac Pro require components not released yet such as the rumoured miniLED which is delayed. Is long as the motherboard can take a new xeon, they should just drop it in. If a new motherboards is needed like the Comet lake CPU, it is a bigger operation.

A spec bump within the same case sounds unlikely if the entire case needs a redesign to handle a miniLED display next year. If miniLED is delayed until 1H 2021 then Apple could eat the delay and leave the iMac Pro for up to another year. By that time RDNA2 GPUs would be readily available to drive a miniLED panel in a full redesigned product.

For the 27" iMac, if Apple are not just doing a storage/RAM bump as per the March 'ready to drop' leak then a logical step up sees Apple tackle the Comet Lake S heat issue with the iMac Pro case and cooling system - bye bye upgradable RAM.

If Apple are doing a storage bump - and I would include upgrading to all Coffee Lake Refresh CPUs in that category - then I could see Apple skipping Comet Lake S in favour of Rocket Lake S.

Rocket Lake S next year sounds more like the system that Apple are waiting for - with Thunderbolt 4, twice as fast SSD, and extra PCIe lanes available to truly push 4 Thunderbolt ports out in the hand-me-down iMac Pro case.

I do not agree when people compare prices for iMac and iMacPro, trying to figure out which is better and appealing to the processor and GPU power only. Server hardware speaks for itself, it becomes outdated much more slowly as well as any equipment from a professional segment. Such a technique is a priori designed for a long load, in which the consumer iMac will either skid or fail more quickly. This means that iMacPro even from 2017 will remain a workable (and valuable when selling) machine for a long time, a very long time. Longer than the 2019th iMac and possibly even the 2020th in its future.

In addition, many people even forget about the iMacPro sound system, an analogue of which, according to some estimates, costs $ 800-900 separately. And so many little things can be found that if you combine everything at once, it turns the iMacPro into a better offer of price/quality. Unless, of course, you are ready to spend money on it.

I can't comment on the efficacy of the iMac Pro sound system but this seems like a good point to discuss equipment choice in the iMac range.

Apple's eccentric choice of equipment doesn't really translate well to choices made by gamers - hence the myriad of complaints from PC builders who min-max in completely different directions.

Any speculation over a 'gaming Mac' should be put to bed immediately by the fact that Apple's software support is nowhere near good enough.

Hand $5k to an experienced PC builder to make a gaming PC system and you'll find an overclocked CPU with Nvidia RTX GPU and a separate monitor panel that won't be 'retina' but will be up to 240Hz with GSync. Immediately you're on the back foot because Apple don't do any of those - throw in DirectX 12 over Metal and Apple gaming is a total non starter.

Gamers aren't interested in Xeon, ECC, 60Hz monitors (no matter how nice), 4k monitors (unless the PC is extremely expensive), or an AIO setup (for cooling purposes).

More likely in my opinion is people looking in astonishment at the potential of RDNA2 GPUs being used in future along with variable refresh panels and translating that into 'gaming' whereas Apple are probably looking at power savings and video editing use.

Let's be clear here, though, Apple are probably looking at how much performance they can get per watt out of RDNA2 rather than how much outright horsepower they can get out of it. I wonder if they are looking at RDNA2 graphics driving a 4k 120Hz panel with mini LED backlight for example?

 

[_Skyfire_]

It's true iMP still has a role in the lineup, especially with very much upgraded specs at the same price. However if they'll still retain the cooling advantage over a regular iMac, Apple has done a giant disservice to the vast majority of their desktop customers

Add in the additional RAM and storage options over the base iMac plus a (rumored) 5K MiniLED display, more ports and better cooling and it would still likely appeal even more to high-end iMac buyers than the current model does.

 

[Azrael9]

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I translate that to mean, 'New iMac at WWDC2020.' (...and...) 'Shipping this Summer.'

Azrael.

 

[DrRadon]

I translate that to mean, 'New iMac at WWDC2020.' (...and...) 'Shipping this Summer.'

Azrael.

Okletsgocrazy.
The images have in common that they say "Hello", wich Apple uses a lot, in a font that has only (?) been used to introduce a new Brandname "All In One" Desktop computer. So at WWDC Apple will announce the switch to ARM to the Coders, next years Redesigned ARM "All in One" Desktop computer will not be called iMac anymore.

 

[Azrael9]

Okletsgocrazy.
The images have in common that they say "Hello", wich Apple uses a lot, in a font that has only (?) been used to introduce a new Brandname "All In One" Desktop computer. So at WWDC Apple will announce the switch to ARM to the Coders, next years Redesigned ARM "All in One" Desktop computer will not be called iMac anymore.

It could be for developers. To get them started. The 'Hello' is actually on their laptop. In a literal sense.

At the least it's saying 'Hello' (new iMac) at 2020 WWDC. The iMac being the direct spiritual offspring of the Mac.

But if they're releasing Mac ARM 2021...?

That it's actually on a laptop could be a dual hint that the 'Hello' has something else for developers. ie. Mac ARM dev' kit. Which could be an Mac ARM in an iMac case as opposed to the Mac Pro with Intel cpu in the last transitional dev' kit.

ie. The release of two iMac models. One for Intel for this year. And a dev' kit iMac ARM for next year.

The message is very clear here. They have something they want developers to get working on. ie. They're huddled around laptops which suggests they're working on something. What could that be?

The 'Hello' seems to have significance beyond just Intel iMac hardware...ie Mac ARM in this context.

At some point Mac ARM is leaving the station and if it's going to ship next year they need dev' kits to start testing that right now at WWDC.

Hello 2020 is new iMac at WWDC. But the image has devs at work on 'something...' It could be the Mac ARM revolution. The 'Hello' is directly on the machine they're working on...

Azrael.