Will you leave the Apple ecosystem because of CSAM?

[eltoslightfoot]

I’m sure they have the legal right to do what they’re doing. Apple probably pays their lawyers millions of dollars a year so they’re not doing anything illegal. Whether it’s ethically right for a company to enable a backdoor into their devices after constantly boasting about their privacy features is another story. This just goes to reinforce my belief that Apple is like any other corporation and they’re number one priority is making a profit. I’m sure multiple governments have been pressuring Apple for this so they felt it was possibly going to cause them legal problems

This is a really good point. They had the moral high ground. Many people trusted Apple more than the other tech giants due to their stances of privacy. Was that naive? Clearly. I can now choose any company I want. I choose the most technically open environments so I can change the guts of the software to what I need. Apple destroyed trust in their most valuable perceived feature - privacy.

What they should have announced is that they were doing e2ee on all icloud data.

 

[jseymour]

Tbf, you lost the argument there.

Completely and utterly missed the point

 

[eltoslightfoot]

Completely and utterly missed the point

It's just a difference in kind. An absolute 180 on paradigms. It's all good. When the company is caught doing more than it said a year from now then we can all act shocked.

In my case, I will act shocked without a single Apple device.

 

[Jayson A]

Abslutely! I have windows machines. I don't use OneDrive. They can't scan my files in the cloud since the aren't there. Same with Apple.

Exactly! Apple only scans the files that are uploading, so if you don’t upload photos, boom, they don’t get scanned. You’re getting it now! Nice

 

[eltoslightfoot]

Exactly! Apple only scans the files that are uploading, so if you don’t upload photos, boom, they don’t get scanned. You’re getting it now! Nice

And where is Apple doing the scanning?

 

[Samdh90]

And where is Apple doing the scanning?

The scanning and matching is done locally on the device, but Apple has already stated that for this to work, one must use icloud photos. Apple won't be able to access locally stored photos at this time, at least as per the report that is public. Once a photo is flagged, Apple's human review team will be able to access a copy that is on their icloud server for review.

 

[eltoslightfoot]

The scanning and matching is done locally on the device.

Now you are starting to get it.

 

[Wanted797]

Microsoft is NOT doing this on the device. It is only doing it in the cloud. It is fundamentally different. Heck, we don't even really know that Google is doing anything of this sort directly on the device...but even if they are, then we are at a standstill, and I will choose the alternative.

I just bought a Surface Pro 7 after testing out my wife's SP5 for a few days. It works fine. As soon as the SP7 is set up, the m1 Macbook is going on Swappa. Then I will hand down my iPhone 11 Pro Max and get an android phone. I, personally, am out at that point. My wife will only have her iPhone SE. The kids? A different matter, but over time I will get them out. Goodbye Apple.

What really, really bothered me honestly was the condescension about the whole thing. Oh, that wasn't well received? It must be the message--surely not our pristine actions. You all simply don't understand.

Oh we understand and we reject your premise, sir.

They’re doing it on device so they don’t know about any matches your phone detects.

It sounds intrusive but is in fact less intrusive. Apple is only alert if a threshold is reached.

I still don’t like it. But I feels it’s better than Microsoft/Google spying on my actual images.

 

[MuppetGate]

The only legitimate concern I have is for the parents that have photos of their own kiddos on their phone. Sure, they won't be "known CSAM," at least in most cases but what would stop something like this being a false positive.

Well, they shouldn’t match because they’re not on the database. But if they did, then Apple will have people you neither know or trust looking at pictures of your kids.

 

[MuppetGate]

They’re doing it on device so they don’t know about any matches your phone detects.

It sounds intrusive but is in fact less intrusive. Apple is only alert if a threshold is reached.

I still don’t like it. But I feels it’s better than Microsoft/Google spying on my actual images.

They’re using the same hash match idea that Apple is going to use, but with a different algorithm. The only difference is that they’re doing it on the server.

 

[eltoslightfoot]

They’re doing it on device so they don’t know about any matches your phone detects.

It sounds intrusive but is in fact less intrusive. Apple is only alert if a threshold is reached.

I still don’t like it. But I feels it’s better than Microsoft/Google spying on my actual images.

How does it feel better? Again, I can not use Dropbox, OneDrive, and the like. I can't not use my iphone. I know for now they say it will only be photos that are to be uploaded to iCloud, but that is placing trust in the whole convoluted system. You can, I will not.

 

[Wanted797]

No, they are not.

🔎 does google scan your photos - Google Search

www.google.com.au

 

[eltoslightfoot]

🔎 does google scan your photos - Google Search

www.google.com.au

Did I miss the part where that happens on the phone? It appears to be only photos shared on Google Photos.

 

[Wanted797]

Did I miss the part where that happens on the phone? It appears to be only photos shared on Google Photos.

So now you know they are looking.

watch

Being on the phone sounds invasive but it kind of makes sense so that Apple isn’t aware of the photos matches until the threshold has been reached.

 

[crymimefireworks]

"There is no scandal."
"No one will switch"

What do people get out of saying stuff like this? Maybe they're scared of feeling powerless or something, helps them sleep at night. Good luck with that. "There is no COVID" 🤣

This past week I took action:

• turned off iCloud on all devices
• Self hosting photos and notes on NextCloud
• Switched to Linux on laptop
• Will accelerate selling my iDevices and replacing with Linux compatible ones
• Have been using ONLY Macs for 25 years

What you do?

 

[eltoslightfoot]

So now you know they are looking.

watch

Being on the phone sounds invasive but it kind of makes sense so that Apple isn’t aware of the photos matches until the threshold has been reached.

It is still a fundamental difference. It's a line that shouldn't be crossed. I will give them credit in one way. At least they are letting us know in plenty of time to switch.

 

[crymimefireworks]

I'm not fine with CSAM, but I won't change anything I do because of that.

If people think it's a good idea to quit Apple to go for Google Android, I'm lost for words.

I haven't heard of anyone switching to Google Android, have you?

You might have been thinking de-Googled Android. There are de-Googled versions of Android, and phones that run Linux. There are options to reduce surveillance -- they are not great, but with buyers and users they will improve.

Good luck not changing anything you do in life. Good strategy.

 

[crymimefireworks]

Wow this poll is incredible. 20% of Mac fans are switching away from Apple because of CSAM.

 

[crymimefireworks]

I think a minute amount of people might leave, but for what device? Every other manufacturer is going to follow suit. If someone is that worried about it then they can turn off iCloud photos.

The reality is that the majority of the population isn’t even going to be aware of this.

Here are some up and coming options for those who dislike surveillance:

https://pine64.org/devices/pinephone/

Purism– Librem 5

Introducing the – Librem 5 by Purism

puri.sm

There are also some builds of Android that have had all Google services removed.

 

[Jayson A]

And where is Apple doing the scanning?

Nothing is hashed until an upload starts. It creates the hash as the photo is uploading. Therefore, just like it has always been, if you don’t use iCloud for photos, nothing will ever be hashed and no safety vouchers will be created.

 

[eltoslightfoot]

Nothing is hashed until an upload starts. It creates the hash as the photo is uploading. Therefore, just like it has always been, if you don’t use iCloud for photos, nothing will ever be hashed and no safety vouchers will be created.

And where is this occurring? And who is auditing the process? Oh that’s right, no one.

again, we understand the process. I have been a dev for over 20 years. I just fundamentally and completely disagree.

 

[Mr. Awesome]

If they do that check on their servers, I do not care

I don’t see your point, then. Effectively, the solution Apple has chosen to use is the same as checking on a server, but with higher security for you as a user.

The hash matching only happens on photos being uploaded to iCloud, so what difference does it make whether it occurs on your phone or in iCloud?

 

[CriticalThoughtDrop]

Yes, but since I can stay on iOS 14, I can migrate rather than abandon.

I don’t expect average users to care. Nor do I expect many of the semi-technical Apple Fans to care. However, some of us have worked in tech and computer security for a long time. We’ve been part of these discussions for a decade or two or three. We’ve seen the security mistakes of the past, we’ve read computer security books by the likes of Bruce Schneider, we’ve studied security best practices, etc. Client side scanning against a govt. provided, black box target deck was always a bridge too far. Two decades ago, the pro-censor, pro-four horseman, anti-encryption pundits said we’d never go this far; it’s incompatibile with a free society they said; stop your slippery slope fear mongering…yet, here we are.

For those of you new to this debate, you likely don’t realize that the existance of this software is the end of the slipper slope we’ve been fighting for decades, not the start. We were never suppose to build this software and open Pandora’s Box. Ultimately, arguements about how it works, as interesting as they may be, are just red herrings; it’s that this software exists at all that’s the problem.

For those of you who say, what about Facebook and Google? I say, so what? I either, don’t use them, or use them as little as I’m given a choice; two wrongs don’t make a right.

I don’t accept client side spyware, from anyone, for any reason. Period.



I’ve pulled all iCloud data out, not just photos. It was nice, but I have tens of TB in my old enterprise class NAS and the upgrade I planned for next year should have several hundred TB. I disabled all updates on Apple devices. I turned Siri off of almost everything. I canceled my Apple One subscription; why pay for services I no longer use?

I was a huge Apple fan prior to this, but I was not naive. I always knew that my privacy and security was only valid so long as it aligned with Apples profits, and one day it could end. It’s one reason I continued to maintain local compute (servers) and infrastructure (power and racks) which would enable me to leave as well as experiment. It will be hard to transition because Apple’s client products are second to none, but while I was eagerly looking forward to a max spec 16” MBP, now I’m ambivalent...as I type this on a max spec 12.9” iPad Pro and Magic Keyboard.

Over the years, I helped migrate people off the Microsoft/Google baselines because of their anti-consumer practices. I will now help those same people in my life migrate off Apple.


Edit: You might ask, well if this software has been so taboo in the tech and security circles for so long, why would Apple build it? Simple, arrogance. The people behind this fully believe they can do what everyone else has claimed for decades can not be done. I believe history will prove Apple wrong and rather than being famous for protecting human rights, they will be reviled and infamous for leading the charge to destroy them.

 

[eltoslightfoot]

I don’t see your point, then. Effectively, the solution Apple has chosen to use is the same as checking on a server, but with higher security for you as a user.

The hash matching only happens on photos being uploaded to iCloud, so what difference does it make whether it occurs on your phone or in iCloud?

If you can’t see the problem after this many pages, I don’t know how to explain it to you. The fourth amendment exists for a reason.

 

[eltoslightfoot]

Yes, but since I can stay on iOS 14, I can migrate rather than abandon.

I don’t expect average users to care. Nor do I expect many of the semi-technical Apple Fans to care. However, some of us have worked in tech and computer security for a long time. We’ve been part of these discussions for a decade or two or three. We’ve seen the security mistakes of the past, we’ve read computer security books by the likes of Bruce Schneider, we’ve studied security best practices, etc. Client side scanning against a govt. provided, black box target deck was always a bridge too far. Two decades ago, the pro-censor, pro-four horseman, anti-encryption pundits said we’d never go this far; it’s incompatibile with a free society they said; stop your slippery slope fear mongering…yet, here we are.

For those of you new to this debate, you likely don’t realize that the existance of this software is the end of the slipper slope we’ve been fighting for decades, not the start. We were never suppose to build this software and open Pandora’s Box. Ultimately, arguements about how it works, as interesting as they may be, are just red herrings; it’s that this software exists at all that’s the problem.

For those of you who say, what about Facebook and Google? I say, so what? I either, don’t use them, or use them as little as I’m given a choice; two wrongs don’t make a right.

I don’t accept client side spyware, from anyone, for any reason. Period.



I’ve pulled all iCloud data out, not just photos. It was nice, but I have tens of TB in my old enterprise class NAS and the upgrade I planned for next year should have several hundred TB. I disabled all updates on Apple devices. I turned Siri off of almost everything. I canceled my Apple One subscription; why pay for services I no longer use?

I was a huge Apple fan prior to this, but I was not naive. I always knew that my privacy and security was only valid so long as it aligned with Apples profits, and one day it could end. It’s one reason I continued to maintain local compute (servers) and infrastructure (power and racks) which would enable me to leave as well as experiment. It will be hard to transition because Apple’s client products are second to none, but while I was eagerly looking forward to a max spec 16” MBP, now I’m ambivalent...as I type this on a max spec 12.9” iPad Pro and Magic Keyboard.

Over the years, I helped migrate people off the Microsoft/Google baselines because of their anti-consumer practices. I will now help those same people in my life migrate off Apple.

Bravo, sir, bravo! Starting with a unraid setup later this week…