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Will you leave the Apple ecosystem because of CSAM?


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Thank god I’m not American :)
How did you guys elect Trump then on to Biden?
You guys just think so differently……..

In simple terms, iCloud functions costs you cents, no one else provides it or its currently level of security.
I’m not sure how you think you are going to escape this if you can’t come to terms with it, someone some how is going to scan your data.
That would be fine if it was in the cloud. It's on my device.
 
A society's freedom is defined by the rights we, the majority, give to the minority. In other words, it's defined by the rights we give to people we disagree with.
I’m assuming you don’t live in the United States.. or misssed a lot of Civics classes.
 
Well, I don't agree with you. I don't think groups like the KKK or American Family Association should be allowed a space to spread their ideas because their ideas lead to a limit of other people's rights. Freedom for all is impossible because some people will use their freedom to limit others.

Also, CSAM detection is not a government power.
You seem very open to other viewpoints, such as trans rights. What happens when there is a CSAM database for trans violence in China? They already have access at the data center level there...this is the problem. It is not corporations working alone. They turn over what they find to the authorities without a warrant.
 
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You seem very open to other viewpoints, such as trans rights. What happens when there is a CSAM database for trans violence in China? They already have access at the data center level there...this is the problem. It is not corporations working alone. They turn over what they find to the authorities without a warrant.
Exactly.
 
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You seem very open to other viewpoints, such as trans rights. What happens when there is a CSAM database for trans violence in China? They already have access at the data center level there...this is the problem. It is not corporations working alone. They turn over what they find to the authorities without a warrant.
What do you mean by trans violence? If you mean a government trying to crack down on the LGBT community, I feel like these countries known for their mistreatment of minorities were already cracking down on certain minorities long before Apple even released the iPod. For example, a black person in the US is already more likely to be pulled over by cops, get harsher punishments than whites and live in area that's underfunded. Or Palestinians in Israel are already opposed by the government there.

I personally fail to see how the CSAM detection is meant to be weaponized against me as a non-pedophile minority in the US. Or how it's going to be used else where for that matter when Apple isn't that popular outside of the US and a few other places.
 
I don't buy this either. Shouldn't Microsoft and Google have been announcing this shortly after Apple? It feels more like a PR move seeing as they reported a very low amount of CSAM and Apple didn't want to be known as a pedophile friendly tech company. Apple could have easily just scanned iCloud drives if they wanted to please the government and child safety organizations.

Apple were already scanning iCloud drives and iCloud emails. There was and is nothing to stop them from scanning iCloud Photo Libraries on the cloud. They haven't given an explanation as to why they chose to do it on the phone. The whole "30 encrypted tickets" thing is completely irrelevant if they already have the capability to read my entire library. Also, Apple were never known as the pedo friendly tech company. I've never heard that sentiment uttered in my life. I and practically everyone else had no idea Apple's CSAM detection count was so low because I think everyone generally assumes all cloud services scan for CSAM content, it's a standard practice.

I'm not saying Apple's specific technology was designed by the government. I'm saying the technology they chose to design has opened a door to potential future legislation regarding always on, on-device scanners -- whether that was the intention behind Apple's tech or not (I don't think it was).
 
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I personally fail to see how the CSAM detection is meant to be weaponized against me as a non-pedophile minority in the US. Or how it's going to be used else where for that matter when Apple isn't that popular outside of the US and a few other places.

Do you personally fail to see how mass surveillance can be weaponized against you too? The ability for single electronic device to be tapped is what lead to mass surveillance systems being possible and developed. Also, even if you were to incorrectly argue that mass surveillance can't be weaponized against you, does the fact that something doesn't harm you directly mean that thing should be allowed? What if the mass surveillance is used to stop Klansmen? Is that appropriate to you? What about BLM activists or journalists?

I don't believe Apple's CSAM detection as it currently stands can harm me. The point is can the technological precedent be used to harm me down the line considering it already has when it comes to other forms of surveillance. It is not unreasonable or fallacious to consider what may come down the line if the precedent has already been set in other forms of surveillance and by current government sentiment regarding their hatred of end to end encryption.
 
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Apple were already scanning iCloud drives and iCloud emails. There was and is nothing to stop them from scanning iCloud Photo Libraries on the cloud. They haven't given an explanation as to why they chose to do it on the phone. The whole "30 encrypted tickets" thing is completely irrelevant if they already have the capability to read my entire library. Also, Apple were never known as the pedo friendly tech company. I've never heard that sentiment uttered in my life. I and practically everyone else had no idea Apple's CSAM detection count was so low because I think everyone generally assumes all cloud services scan for CSAM content, it's a standard practice.

I'm not saying Apple's specific technology was designed by the government. I'm saying the technology they chose to design has opened a door to potential future legislation regarding always on, on-device scanners -- whether that was the intention behind Apple's tech or not (I don't think it was).
How do people not see this? It’s crazy what a made up mind will do for learning these days…or head in the sand. There wasn’t a firestorm for nothing over this. Tim Cook literally backed down under pressure, external and internal. ..backed down for now.
 
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Do you personally fail to see how mass surveillance can be weaponized against you too? The ability for single electronic device to be tapped is what lead to mass surveillance systems being possible and developed.

I don't believe Apple's CSAM detection as it currently stands can harm me. The point is can the technological precedent be used to harm me down the line considering it already has when it comes to other forms of surveillance. It is not unreasonable or fallacious to consider what may come down the line if the precedent has already been set in other forms of surveillance and by current government sentiment regarding their hatred of end to end encryption.
No, I know that mass surveillance exists. I know my online behavior is monitored if not by a government, a company that hopes to make money off me and my data. I'm specifically talking about not seeing how Apple's current CSAM detection system will harm me compared to say, the rise of right-wing terrorism.

I'm not silly enough to think that the government doesn't have an obsession with stripping our rights away. I was a little kid during 9/11 and the quick actions to limit our privacy that followed. I didn't fully understand back then but the precedent was set long, long time ago.
 
What do you mean by trans violence? If you mean a government trying to crack down on the LGBT community, I feel like these countries known for their mistreatment of minorities were already cracking down on certain minorities long before Apple even released the iPod. For example, a black person in the US is already more likely to be pulled over by cops, get harsher punishments than whites and live in area that's underfunded. Or Palestinians in Israel are already opposed by the government there.

I personally fail to see how the CSAM detection is meant to be weaponized against me as a non-pedophile minority in the US. Or how it's going to be used else where for that matter when Apple isn't that popular outside of the US and a few other places.
Who decided the definition of pedophile and what happens if it changes?
 
No, I know that mass surveillance exists. I know my online behavior is monitored if not by a government, a company that hopes to make money off me and my data. I'm specifically talking about not seeing how Apple's current CSAM detection system will harm me compared to say, the rise of right-wing terrorism.

I'm not silly enough to think that the government doesn't have an obsession with stripping our rights away. I was a little kid during 9/11 and the quick actions to limit our privacy that followed. I didn't fully understand back then but the precedent was set long, long time ago.
So then why in the name of all that is holy would you be on favor of more surveillance?
 
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So then why in the name of all that is holy would you be on favor of more surveillance?
Not in favor, I've accepted that almost anything I do with modern devices has a chance of being monitored/scanned/hacked into. With enough determination, if the police or even a tech savvy stalker wanted me, they'd have the websites I visit, my web searches, social media accounts, my usual locations, even my hardware and data on my personal drives.
 
For those who claim Android is just as bad as Apple, I counter it by the reality that I'm using a phone running Android 2.3, Gingerbread, from 2010. Google Play cut support for it in Q4 2018. It no longer supports Google or Google Play at all. It's about as private as an iPhone 3GS or a BlackBerry Pearl today. I've also got tablets also running 'unsupported' Android versions. It's ironic how fast a device can be, despite being over a decade old, when it's not spending 3 out of the 4 CPU cores and more than half the RAM (and 3/4 the battery) phoning home to Google. Personally, I'm enjoying life as if it were 2010-13 again. I just got a Galaxy SII from Amazon for literally $50. Plugged my SIM in and away I go.
 
Not in favor, I've accepted that almost anything I do with modern devices has a chance of being monitored/scanned/hacked into. With enough determination, if the police or even a tech savvy stalker wanted me, they'd have the websites I visit, my web searches, social media accounts, my usual locations, even my hardware and data on my personal drives.
But they don't have to. You can mitigate a lot of these things. I have. It is pretty painless. Granted not everyone is going to roll your own cloud server (thank you Unraid), but one could use cryptomator on dropbox.

You don't have to just give up. Apple shouldn't do this and well, that's the way it is now isn't a good enough reason not to fight.
 
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BTW Galaxy Buds Live work perfectly with a Galaxy SII. Kinda a neat bonus! Heck, most of my phone needs today just involve music playback, messaging, occasional searches, and taking notes or using the calculator. The only really true innovation since 2010-13 for me has to be the true wireless buds. If I had to give those up it'd be a lot harder to adjust to my new downupgrade
 
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This thread keeps repeating itself over and over again. i never thought that Dropbox scan my pics to see if there are naked kids there, never heard about it. The Apple ecosystem is very good, I just don’t want them to use my hardware to avoid costs on their datacenter, I will have to pay for processing power, electricity and all the stuff related to it. I also fear they might use the tech applied to CSAM to other things.
 
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These days I hate to break it to you....Android 12 may be gathering less data than where Apple is headed. I can give very granular permissions on Android 12.

I have to agree.
Without going to extreme, my OnePlus on 11, adding in a couple of other app stores and apps not available in Google Play, collects less data than my 12 ProMax. What is does collect feeds the ad machine though. I’m okay with that. I have been reading that 12 is a another step up in limiting data collection. Apple started it and looks like it has really caught on.
 
Who decided the definition of pedophile and what happens if it changes?

That is the aspect many seem to be able to grasp.
Take the term CSAM out of the equation and instead fill in the name of another illegality of your choice. Nobody here likes CSAM. That crap has got to go. What Apple needs to do is either move this to the cloud or find a risk adverse way to do this that is transparent and safe for the user.
 
Your device is ALREADY doing work for them. It's decrypting the encrypted apps/music and confirming you paid them the right amounts of money to use those files. It's calling home to see if you paid enough money, in the right way, to have your SIM unlocked. It performs diagnostics, reports errors, etc.. All of that is work apple wants done -- and it's happening on your device!

Wait'll you hear about what Android phones do without your knowledge!

Actually, as much as I'd like to challenge this, I must confess I can't. It's quite a good point.

I've been giving this some thought, trying to understand why, despite seeing your point and agreeing with it, the CSAM thing still bothers me.
I think it's all about the object of the work, the purpose of the check.
In your examples, my phone is doing work that's either reasonably necessary in order to get access to the service (of course, Apple can be expected to check if I paid for a service before allowing me to use it, that's a perfectly reasonable expectation), or useful to me (by helping Apple improve the system, I will also benefit from this in the future). But the CSAM check is neither a reasonably necessary condition for the service, nor something that benefits me in any way. It's made entirely for the benefit of other people and does nothing for me.

In a commercial relationship I expect the party I'm doing business with to check whether I've done my part of the deal (i.e. paid for the services), but not to check whether I've been a good boy.
Whether I paid or not, that's Apple's business. Whether I'm a paedophile or not, is not.

That's why it bothers the hell out of me that they have the nerve to use my phone to check on me. If they want to check if I'm a model citizen who goes to church on Sundays and helps little old ladies cross the street, then let them use their own resources to do it.
 
But they don't have to. You can mitigate a lot of these things. I have. It is pretty painless. Granted not everyone is going to roll your own cloud server (thank you Unraid), but one could use cryptomator on dropbox.

You don't have to just give up. Apple shouldn't do this and well, that's the way it is now isn't a good enough reason not to fight.
A simple Synology NAS will provide most of what iCloud gives providing you also implement a back up solution which costs no more than iCloud, you just have the initial setup costs but you now own your own data.
 
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People think I'm just some stick in the mud with my refusal to embrace 'the cloud' but this is just one reason I don't. I have dealt with folks who lost data when Ubuntu One died off, or whenever Skydrive became OneDrive, and I've even heard of folks having their music collection 'deleted' because it violated some arbritrary RIAA law. I would rather stick with the old fashioned convenience and not worry about my data going away because I'm the old man who still does RAID, off-site backups, or backups to physical media, and NASs built from Linux.
 
Who decided the definition of pedophile and what happens if it changes?
As a layperson, if I had to guess the medical community defined pedophile because I would consider it an illness. But you are right in that in politics different groups will have different definitions. As someone with progressive views, I say a pedophile is someone who is attracted to children. But more bigoted political groups might argue that certain gender identities/sexual orientations, religious groups, or racial groups are pedophiles automatically. Depending on the group, they were already accused of being pedophiles, like how gay men were seen as such in the past, or how today Islamophobes think Muslims are a bunch of wife beating pedophile North Africans and Arabs.

At least for now, the definition of pedophile at least in the legal and medical sense is narrowing down. If it gets expanded to basically anyone who isn't a white Christian cishet male though, I wouldn't be worried about Apple because that sounds like an United States where all opposition to hate groups is gone. I'd be leaving the States because that's when the violence would really get bad.
 
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