Will you leave the Apple ecosystem because of CSAM?

[MacBH928]

Let me propose this situation…. Say you have some type of power or gift, perhaps.. you are Superman, Spider-Man or The Flash. I know this seems kind of odd to say. But would you stand idle by and not help those who are not as gifted as you?

I hate to be cliche… but with power comes responsibility. Apple has the technology to help those who have the potential to experience abuse. I totally understand your perspective about how Apple has been vocal about privacy and it’s as if they switched their stance.

But I think Apple is in a tough position. Either they stand idle or they do something.

So you will breach the privacy of tens of millions of people and read their files to maybe catch that 1 guy? sounds awesome to maybe help 1 by abusing tens of millions on daily basis?

The flaw in this logic is that " I do not allow Apple to scan my files " , now scanning them after this statement is either abusing my rights or they are actually accusing me of pedophilia and want a search warrant. Either way, Apple should get ready to go to court with every iCloud user if that is the case, either being accused or he feels his privacy is being abused.

 

[kazmac]

I barely use iCloud and always turn off iCloud photos etc. that’s due to me not wanting to pay Apple for services when they cannot seem to get their stuff straight in software and hardware quality control. Not to mention purposely gimping native software features to subscription only.

So this new move doesn’t thrill me, but it’s not the reason why I am no longer thinking of Mac ownership after 25 years. If Windows had art software like Procreate, I would be gone except for an iPhone. I use Photos only to upload my art to Instagram now.

It doesn’t surprise me that Apple are slowly backtracking on Privacy. I completely get what they are doing here, but it’s not my reason for losing a lot of my enthusiasm about most of their technology.

 

[Runs For Fun]

No, I will not be leaving. I answered "No, I am totally fine with CSAM scanning", however, it still does make me uncomfortable, but I think people are making a bigger deal out of this than it really is with all of the misunderstanding of how this technology actually works that is going around. I think the way that poll option is worded is a bit loaded.

 

[MuppetGate]

Let me propose this situation…. Say you have some type of power or gift, perhaps.. you are Superman, Spider-Man or The Flash. I know this seems kind of odd to say. But would you stand idle by and not help those who are not as gifted as you?

I hate to be cliche… but with power comes responsibility. Apple has the technology to help those who have the potential to experience abuse. I totally understand your perspective about how Apple has been vocal about privacy and it’s as if they switched their stance.

But I think Apple is in a tough position. Either they stand idle or they do something.

They're already doing something; they're scanning photos on their servers. (Note the date of the article)

Naked Security – Sophos News

nakedsecurity.sophos.com

But going back to your superhero example:

Say you have some type of power or gift, perhaps.. you are Superman, Spider-Man or The Flash. I know this seems kind of odd to say. But would you stand idle by and not help those who are not as gifted as you?

Did you know that Batman keeps a lump of kryptonite in the batcave? Do you know why he does this? Because he knows that being powerful is great, but the trouble starts when that power is turned is influenced to do things that are less than responsible.

If Apple bends to protect its manufacturing base and market (as it always has in the past) then the iPhone becomes the biggest surveillance network in China.

 

[MuppetGate]

No, they are not.

Indeed they're not.

Seems to me that the folk who're supporting this are the ones who're missing something.

 

[MuppetGate]

It will tell us the percentage of people "who aren't happy about it but won't do anything". It might be the most important option to make all the other answers accurate.

I don't like the tax rate but I pay it. In a poll where either I have to like the tax or leave the country or commit fraud, I would not be able to answer, or I would have a give a false answer, probably lie and say that I like the tax. Unless a poll cover all options, the answers you receive will not be accurate.

Right, okay. I see what you're saying.

But if you're trying to affect change (not that Apple is going to change), what do the "not happy but not going to do anything" bring to the table. I mean, if you're not going to do anything then whatever is being done to you is going to carry on being done to you … isn't it?

 

[CasualFanboy]

It IS whining, what action are y’all doing to stop/voice you guys don’t like it? Are y’all selling your iPhones right this second? Most aren’t, are y’all making petitions? I haven’t seen a single post about one in here. it’s all bark in these posts and no bite. And yes I understand the implications of what it brings.

The question wasn't asking if "yawwwwwllll" were going to dedicate our lives to become activists in trying to convince the world that they shouldn't support bad corporate policies. That's not a requirement for me to simply stop buying apple products.

 

[QueenTyrone]

By your own standard you are just whining about us whining. What, are you going to hunt us down and stop us from posting here? No? Then you're just whining.

Imagine being loud and wrong. The audacity.

 

[Ludatyk]

So you will breach the privacy of tens of millions of people and read their files to maybe catch that 1 guy? sounds awesome to maybe help 1 by abusing tens of millions on daily basis?

The flaw in this logic is that " I do not allow Apple to scan my files " , now scanning them after this statement is either abusing my rights or they are actually accusing me of pedophilia and want a search warrant. Either way, Apple should get ready to go to court with every iCloud user if that is the case, either being accused or he feels his privacy is being abused.

You responded to my post.. but didn’t actually answer the question?

Do I want Apple to scan my files/photos? No… however, I do understand I am using their service. In any service there will be rules or regulations I have to abide by. As I said, it’s a tough position… I know it’s wrong to have the stance of I have nothing to hide then I have no problem with it.

But it’s one of those situations… where Apple can’t sit idle or on the sidelines.

If Apple bends to protect its manufacturing base and market (as it always has in the past) then the iPhone becomes the biggest surveillance network in China.

Yeah, I don’t like their business with China. With this new Child Safety method in place… China has me worried. Because Apple tends to give them liberty to do whatever.

 

[antiprotest]

Right, okay. I see what you're saying.

But if you're trying to affect change (not that Apple is going to change), what do the "not happy but not going to do anything" bring to the table. I mean, if you're not going to do anything then whatever is being done to you is going to carry on being done to you … isn't it?

But that's not what the poll is doing. The poll is just asking for information. Action is something separate.

For example, suppose you don't like Biden, you might make a poll in which the most important option would be "I do not like Biden, but I do not plan to vote in the next election." That would be the most important number, because those are the people you talk to.

 

[Mr_Ed]

Yes, eventually. When my current Apple hardware outlives it’s usefulness I’ll consider alternatives. In the meantime, I’ll be turning off iCloud and delaying OS updates as long as I can. I’ll be dropping the extra iCloud storage I currently pay for.

No solution or product is ever “perfect.” I think a lot of my decisions come down to “the lesser of evils” and since I bought my first Mac in 1993, I had no trouble choosing Apple. Over time, I feel Apple has ceased to innovate in ways that were relevant to what I do with the technology on a day-to-day basis, but that’s a different topic.

I’ve owned iPhones since the original became available but for me, being put under surveillance crosses the line. The technical details about how CSAM works are not nearly as important to me as the fact that they implement part of it on my device, that I paid for. To be clear, I understand they are required to take steps to prevent misuse of THEIR hardware (iCloud servers). Apple is basically saying it is their duty to surveil me using my own hardware because “think of the children”. So, for me, Apple no longer evaluates to “the lesser of evils.”

Apple’s position here reminds me of a time I was riding in a car driven by a colleague and when I noticed we had been riding on the passing lane doing the speed limit while several vehicles were behind us trying to get by. I asked him why he was not moving over and he basically said “they are not supposed to be going over the speed limit anyway.” I told him that was being an a*****e and reminded him that enforcing the law is

“NOT YOUR JOB.”

 

[jseymour]

It IS whining, what action are y’all doing to stop/voice you guys don’t like it?

I don't know about others, but, for me, see: https://forums.macrumors.com/thread...g.2306957/page-34?post=30179929#post-30179929

I'm currently on-line with an Apple Card specialist, cancelling my Apple Card.

ETA: Apple Card cancelled. All other cards removed from Wallet. Wallet removed from home screen.

 

[antiprotest]

Imagine being loud and wrong. The audacity.

A sarcastic statement without a direct refutation is tantamount to admission of defeat. If you could refute what I said, you would have given the refutation.

 

[singularity0993]

For those who voted No: A new option has been added and you might want to revise your vote. Thanks for pointing this out.

 

[QueenTyrone]

I don't know about others, but, for me, see: https://forums.macrumors.com/thread...g.2306957/page-34?post=30179929#post-30179929

I'm currently on-line with an Apple Card specialist, cancelling my Apple Card.

You’re one of the only ones actually doing something and that’s great. I canceled all my subs, and my iCloud, not sure if I’m going to cancel my  card. I probably just won’t use it but once every 6 months like I do now.

 

[MuppetGate]

But that's not what the poll is doing. The poll is just asking for information. Action is something separate.

For example, suppose you don't like Biden, you might make a poll in which the most important option would be "I do not like Biden, but I do not plan to vote in the next election." That would be the most important number, because those are the people you talk to.

Right. I see what you mean. Point taken.

 

[Jayson A]

Question: If a police car is sitting on the side of the road with a radar gun waiting for someone to speed by, then aren't they also assuming that everyone is a criminal until you prove that you're driving the speed limit?

Why should my car be checked for speeding, I'm not a criminal?

 

[MuppetGate]

You’re one of the only ones actually doing something and that’s great. I canceled all my subs, and my iCloud, not sure if I’m going to cancel my  card. I probably just won’t use it but once every 6 months like I do now.

Yeah, I'm working on it. The photos are going to take a while to move, if my phone doesn't melt first.

To be honest, this has been a bit of wake-up call. I've become too dependent on a closed-platform. A few years ago, I wouldn't have touched anything that I didn't work on multiple platforms. Where did my common sense go?

Now I have a lot of work to do. 🤷‍♂

 

[Jayson A]

Yeah, I'm working on it. The photos are going to take a while to move, if my phone doesn't melt first.

To be honest, this has been a bit of wake-up call. I've become to dependent on a closed-platform. A few years ago, I wouldn't have touched anything that I didn't work on multiple platforms. Where did my common sense go?

Now I have a lot of work to do. 🤷‍♂

Fact is, you either like the products and services you buy and use, or you look for products and services that will better serve you. That's the freedom of choice.

Thank you for voting with your wallet. I'm not even being sarcastic. I think everyone has the right to do what they think is right for themselves instead of just complaining and not doing anything about it.

 

[MuppetGate]

Question: If a police car is sitting on the side of the road with a radar gun waiting for someone to speed by, then aren't they also assuming that everyone is a criminal until you prove that you're driving the speed limit?

Why should my car be checked for speeding, I'm not a criminal?

What you've described there is the current system used by Google, Microsoft, Facebook and Apple: checking every file as it arrives on the server and giving a ticket to the ones that break the law.

Apple's new system works like this:

The cop is riding in your passenger seat. Every time you nudge the accelerator, the cop makes a note of your speed and compares it with the local speed limit. If you exceed the speed limit thirty times then he tells you to pull over, takes your ignition keys and tells you can have your keys back if you win the appeal.

And you've also used extra petrol carting this cop around …

 

[QueenTyrone]

Yeah, I'm working on it. The photos are going to take a while to move, if my phone doesn't melt first.

To be honest, this has been a bit of wake-up call. I've become to dependent on a closed-platform. A few years ago, I wouldn't have touched anything that I didn't work on multiple platforms. Where did my common sense go?

Now I have a lot of work to do.

SAME, I have realized a bit before the whole csam thing that I was relying much too much on apple and I should branch out. I transferred 65k photos to my own server and lord it took ALONG time. Never again will I keep that many on my phone and deleting them from I could took forever too.

 

[Mr_Ed]

Question: If a police car is sitting on the side of the road with a radar gun waiting for someone to speed by, then aren't they also assuming that everyone is a criminal until you prove that you're driving the speed limit?

Why should my car be checked for speeding, I'm not a criminal?

Through taxation, I am paying that law enforcement officer to enforce the law (annoying as it may be sometimes). That is literally his/her job.

I am not paying Apple via my purchase of hardware/services to enforce the law. Not their job.

 

[Moto68000]

Question: If a police car is sitting on the side of the road with a radar gun waiting for someone to speed by, then aren't they also assuming that everyone is a criminal until you prove that you're driving the speed limit?

Why should my car be checked for speeding, I'm not a criminal?

What about if your new car has an inbuilt speed detector that sends a signal to the police each time you're overspeeding or drive trough a red light? The detector is installed by the car maker at the factory.. The police then will send you a ticket.. Would you buy that car?

 

[jseymour]

To be honest, this has been a bit of wake-up call. I've become to dependent on a closed-platform. A few years ago, I wouldn't have touched anything that I didn't work on multiple platforms. Where did my common sense go?

A big +1 to that ^^^^^

I'm the same way. Or should I say I was the same way you were? And we were this >< close to going even further down the rabbit hole, with the first of two Macs to be purchased w/in the next month or months. (Essentially, whenever the mood hit me.)

Lesson learned. I will not be making this mistake again.

♫ I'll keep my eyes wide open all the time. I'll keep the ends out for the ties that bind... ♫ - with apologies to Johnny Cash

 

[Jayson A]

What about if your new car has an inbuilt speed detector that sends a signal to the police when you're overspeeding? The detector is installed by the car maker at the factory.. The police then will send you a speeds ticket.. Would you buy that car?

My post wasn't about speeding. It was about being presumed guilty until proven innocent.

Speeding is very easy to accidentally do whereas collecting 30 CSAM files is not. I would definitely not mind if a cop was in my car looking to see if I had CSAM images, but the catch would be, he must not look at the content of any of my photos. He actually must hold each image up to a robot without looking until 30 matches are found, then he may arrest me and I would deserve it.