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Windows 11

maflynn said:
The sad part is probably just clicking update.
This past update is causing black screens, outlook crashing, Frame rates from dropping, two out of band updates from MS, and them finally saying don't apply the update.
Troubled Windows 11 January Patch Now Preventing Some PCs From Booting Up
Nvidia confirms that the Windows 11 January update causes frame drops and artifacting
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nVidia should have been testing the betas.

I guess that explains why I have seen zero problems. I have a 1660 Ti on my desktop and saw no problems so maybe it's just newer cards.

Two of the programs that I use have issues like this in Tahoe which is why I'm not upgrading until they are fixed. Ideally, those two companies should test the betas but that's not their development approach. They fix things when things break which may mean that it takes a while for them to fix it.

I did have black screens and artifacts back in December 2024 with my 1050 and 1660 Ti and was looking to get a newer GPU card but it turned out to be nVidia's drivers and they were fixed in the spring. I found lots of articles about similar complaints and just used Intel Integrated until the problems were fixed.

I checked with our daughter who has the 9900X and RTX 4060 system and she has not had any problems with that Windows 11 update. Our son has a 14900H with RTX 4070 and he hasn't had any problems either. If the problem were really widespread, then I would have expected a much bigger outcry from gamers and general users. And a much faster subsequent fix.
 
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pshufd said:
nVidia should have been testing the betas.
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I don't know how much testing they have for typical patch tuesdays. I can see when its the annual update, but for regular updates that shouldn't impact them? This is really on Microsoft, its clear they didn't do much testing when their own Outlook was crashing when this update was applied
 
maflynn said:
I don't know how much testing they have for typical patch tuesdays. I can see when its the annual update, but for regular updates that shouldn't impact them? This is really on Microsoft, its clear they didn't do much testing when their own Outlook was crashing when this update was applied
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As far as I am aware MS doesn't do a huge amount of testing for security updates. As there is simply too many system combinations for it to be worthwhile. I know on my system I don't seem to be having issues with the latest update (not today's since it is patch Tuesday again). Though I am also not on the bleeding edge nvidia update either (just recent enough to get DLSS 4.5 support in the nvidia app).

I also don't use outlook at home, much so maybe I've just not noticed it.
 
I just reviews Gamers Nexus and Hardware Unboxed for videos on the Microsoft Windows 11 update problem last month and there weren't any. Most of the videos were related to AI, RAM, SSDs, GPUs and the affordability problems with gaming today.
 
maflynn said:
I don't know how much testing they have for typical patch tuesdays. I can see when its the annual update, but for regular updates that shouldn't impact them? This is really on Microsoft, its clear they didn't do much testing when their own Outlook was crashing when this update was applied
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The large software companies have extensive regression test systems. At Oracle, I'd say that we had at least millions of tests. The hardware to run them nightly was significant. So there is some dependency on customers and third-party applications to test their stuff.

I had an old USB3 to DVI DisplayLink card that either Sierra or High Sierra broke. The DisplayLink folks had several betas to try and fix the problem but Apple had changed how graphics handling worked in a .5 maintenance release. The DisplayLink folks finally admitted that they couldn't fix it in the current release and to try running it in the next release of macOS. But this was at work and we typically waited nine months to allow upgrading to new versions of macOS so I was out of luck.

Microsoft should have caught the Outlook issue but the industry changes on software QA changed a decade ago which means less destructive testing which I think is what has contributed to declining software quality over that time.

I don't use Outlook as I like portable solutions.
 
pshufd said:
I just reviews Gamers Nexus and Hardware Unboxed for videos on the Microsoft Windows 11 update problem last month and there weren't any. Most of the videos were related to AI, RAM, SSDs, GPUs and the affordability problems with gaming today.
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And yet other news sites had covered it, Microsoft offered two out of band updates to address the problems (KB5077797 and KB5078127) and tells people to uninstall the update:
Microsoft Warns Millions Of PC Owners—Remove Windows Update
 
maflynn said:
I don't know how much testing they have for typical patch tuesdays. I can see when its the annual update, but for regular updates that shouldn't impact them? This is really on Microsoft, its clear they didn't do much testing when their own Outlook was crashing when this update was applied
Click to expand...

It may be that the Outlook folks have their own regression testing and that their suites weren't run for the security updates.

At Oracle, we could run the entire regression suite overnight for the RDBMS, but layered applications weren't part of that.
 
maflynn said:
And yet other news sites had covered it, Microsoft offered two out of band updates to address the problems (KB5077797 and KB5078127) and tells people to uninstall the update:
Microsoft Warns Millions Of PC Owners—Remove Windows Update
Click to expand...

That GN and HU didn't cover it generally implies that they didn't get a lot of emails on the issue. They are very sensitive to those things and have done some great investigative journalism where there are problems and they have a much higher level of expertise. How many news sites have the CEO learn Chinese for a trip to Taiwan and China to do an investigative journalism piece. GN is also really good at getting outside expertise to describe how things work and what the industry problems are.
 
pshufd said:
That GN and HU didn't cover it generally implies that they didn't get a lot of emails on the issue.
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Claiming there’s no problem because a specific YouTuber didn’t mention it is flawed reasoning. Microsoft’s response alone signals how serious this was: two out-of-band updates, plus guidance telling Windows users to uninstall the update entirely. That’s an extraordinary move, and not something I remember seeing before.
 
maflynn said:
Claiming there’s no problem because a specific YouTuber didn’t mention it is flawed reasoning. Microsoft’s response alone signals how serious this was: two out-of-band updates, plus guidance telling Windows users to uninstall the update entirely. That’s an extraordinary move, and not something I remember seeing before.
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I didn't say that there wasn't a problem.

What I'm saying is that they didn't get enough contacts to do a video on it. Their audience is gamers and they have 2.6 million subscribers. That's a lot of gamers!

I think that Microsoft's response was unreasonably broad. Has anyone on this board actually run into this problem? Tom's Hardware described the number of people seeing it as "few".
 
pshufd said:
It may be that the Outlook folks have their own regression testing and that their suites weren't run for the security updates.

At Oracle, we could run the entire regression suite overnight for the RDBMS, but layered applications weren't part of that.
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When they say there is an outlook problem, do they mean Mail (the built in app) or Office Outlook? I'd be curious if the 365 team actually checks Mail.
 
maflynn said:
Claiming there’s no problem because a specific YouTuber didn’t mention it is flawed reasoning. Microsoft’s response alone signals how serious this was: two out-of-band updates, plus guidance telling Windows users to uninstall the update entirely. That’s an extraordinary move, and not something I remember seeing before.
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They have done this in the past for DC updates that break PKI authentication (ask me how I know, lol).
 
diamond.g said:
When they say there is an outlook problem, do they mean Mail (the built in app) or Office Outlook? I'd be curious if the 365 team actually checks Mail.
Click to expand...

I don't know the difference between Outlook products; didn't really understand that there's more than one product.

When people talk about Outlook, my concept is Apple Mail or Thundebird and some associated cloud mail service.
 
pshufd said:
I don't know the difference between Outlook products; didn't really understand that there's more than one product.

When people talk about Outlook, my concept is Apple Mail or Thundebird and some associated cloud mail service.
Click to expand...
Yeah I actually looked it up, apparently Outlook for Windows is the new thing, and it is done by the "Outlook Team", but it is just an app version of outlook.com. Not the same as "Outlook Classic". 🤷‍♂️
 
pshufd said:
What I'm saying is that they didn't get enough contacts to do a video on it. Their audience is gamers and they have 2.6 million subscribers. That's a lot of gamers!
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Doing a quick search on GN, and seeing what they cover, its not surprising they didn't do a video, they're a hardware YTer as is Hardware Unboxed (their name gives it away). Again, just because a given YTer doesn't cover the story, indicates its a small/unknown issue. Not when microsoft states to uninstall it and that in of itself impacts millions hence the other article I linked too.

pshufd said:
I think that Microsoft's response was unreasonably broad.
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They didn't and I'm going to go out on a limb that they're closer to the issue and know the full impact.


pshufd said:
Has anyone on this board actually run into this problem?
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MacRumor's probably not a great sample population, given that most members are using Macs. Just look at how active this forum is - only a small handful of members (like maybe 10 of us).
 
maflynn said:
MacRumor's probably not a great sample population, given that most members are using Macs. Just look at how active this forum is - only a small handful of members (like maybe 10 of us).
Click to expand...

I'm on r/lenovo and I think that I ran into a handful of people that had the problem. r/lenovo has massive traffic so a handful is a tiny number.

Do you know anyone personally at work or in your network that has run into the problem? I can email my kids who are gamers and ask them if they've run into other gamers that have seen this problem.

I run into far more people on the Mac subreddits with Tahoe problem than on the Lenovo sub with this Windows 11 problem.
 
pshufd said:
Do you know anyone personally at work or in your network that has run into the problem? I can email my kids who are gamers and ask them if they've run into other gamers that have seen this problem.
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This isn't a contest to see who's right or wrong, I really don't care. I posted that there was an issue, Microsoft felt it impactful enough to advise windows users to uninstall it

You disagree - that's fine, I'm just pointing out that making assumptions on two influencers not covering the issue seems misguided.

I'm rather tired of beating this dead horse.
 
maflynn said:
This isn't a contest to see who's right or wrong, I really don't care. I posted that there was an issue, Microsoft felt it impactful enough to advise windows users to uninstall it

You disagree - that's fine, I'm just pointing out that making assumptions on two influencers not covering the issue seems misguided.

I'm rather tired of beating this dead horse.
Click to expand...

You're generally stating your disgust with Windows and my perspective is that it's fine.

Does Windows have problems? Sure. But so does any complex software that's widely used.
 
I am facing the unable to shut down issue on multiple systems. I have to force a shut down every time or run a powershell script.
 
I like how Bellular News describes the issues that MS had this past year - they're a gaming news site, so they have that perspective.

I like what he had to say, even if the problems are effecting 5% of the user base, that's millions of users, given the huge installed base of windows.

 
This is an interesting test. Though folks were pointing out that all AMD hardware would have seen a bigger performance improvement.
 
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