Windows on M1?

[OnawaAfrica]

From apples side there is NO restriction to run windows on the M1 Macs however the issue comes from Microsoft.
Microsoft doesn't give out licenses for its Windows ARM variant. Windows ARM is only for preinstallation licensed.
I am not sure but it Think it was Phil Schiller who said that from apples side there is no Problem or Restrictions against windows on their M1

 

[AndyMacAndMic]

From apples side there is NO restriction to run windows on the M1 Macs however the issue comes from Microsoft.
Microsoft doesn't give out licenses for its Windows ARM variant. Windows ARM is only for preinstallation licensed.
I am not sure but it Think it was Phil Schiller who said that from apples side there is no Problem or Restrictions against windows on their M1

Source?

 

[Apple Fritter]

While I don't have a specific source, it's common knowledge. I think Craig Federighi mentioned it as well. M$ just doesn't sell retail licenses for ARM. Go and try to buy one, that should be all the source you need.

 

[AJB1971]

Source?

Craig Federighi: Native Windows on M1 Macs is 'Really up to Microsoft'

Following the release of the M1 Macs Apple executives have been doing interviews with a range of publications, and today, Ars Technica published...

www.macrumors.com

 

[mi7chy]

From apples side there is NO restriction to run windows on the M1 Macs however the issue comes from Microsoft.
Microsoft doesn't give out licenses for its Windows ARM variant. Windows ARM is only for preinstallation licensed.
I am not sure but it Think it was Phil Schiller who said that from apples side there is no Problem or Restrictions against windows on their M1

Apple needs to offer Windows on ARM (WoA) as a BTO OS option and support it with drivers otherwise responsibility falls on Microsoft which isn't going to happen and even on PC it has never happened since it's always been the device or component manufacturers' responsibility to provide drivers. Otherwise, it benefits Microsoft software and services sales to have more devices in their ecosystem like Lenovo Flex 5G, Samsung Galaxy Book S, etc. WoA devices.

In a nutshell, Apple might say they won't restrict other OS' for PR but it doesn't mean squat if they don't provide drivers and it's closed source.

 

[Gerdi]

I would say good functional emulation of 3D software, which would include games is not gonna happen on Windows ARM anytime even remotely soon is my guess. And Since Windows is more of 3D home ground than MAC, Microsoft have a problem.

What are you talking about? Only the CPU is emulated, and as far as this is concerned, the emulator cannot distinguish between 3D software and other software.

Windows programs are more likely to use more "near hardware" software functionality, which is harder to emulate correctly.

This makes not much sense either, given that the CPU and only the CPU is emulated.

 

[OnawaAfrica]

Apple needs to offer Windows on ARM (WoA) as a BTO OS option and support it with drivers otherwise responsibility falls on Microsoft which isn't going to happen and even on PC it has never happened since it's always been the device or component manufacturers' responsibility to provide drivers. Otherwise, it benefits Microsoft software and services sales to have more devices in their ecosystem like Lenovo Flex 5G, Samsung Galaxy Book S, etc. WoA devices.

In a nutshell, Apple might say they won't restrict other OS' for PR but it doesn't mean squat if they don't provide drivers and it's closed source.

Apple would provide drivers if Microsoft would license win on arm

 

[theluggage]

From apples side there is NO restriction to run windows on the M1 Macs however the issue comes from Microsoft.
Microsoft doesn't give out licenses for its Windows ARM variant.

M$ just doesn't sell retail licenses for ARM.

Why would they? There are few, if any, ARM-based desktops of laptops on the market apart from Macs. There's no real ARM equivalent to the standard "IBM" PC architecture, nor do hardware manufacturers routinely supply windows-on-ARM drivers for all their hardware. The Raspberry Pi is barely powerful enough to make a practical Windows machine, and there's a developer preview version that can be downloaded and run on a Pi if you just want to experiment. Phones, tablets etc. can't run Windows without various degrees of hacking and jailbreaking... bottom line, approx. zero people would actually buy a retail Windows-on-ARM until there's something to run it on.

Before WoA will run on M1 Macs there needs to be a complete Hypervisor package available to buy: Parallels for M1 is still in tech preview, as is the version of WoA that actually runs on it - lots of people have tried it and reported it as extremely promising, but still unstable.

...also, the WoA x86-64 emulator has only recently turned up in the preview version, not released yet, and there's also a suggestion that the current WoA still contains bits of ARM32 code which won't run on the M1.

Microsoft "gives out" (methinks the odd dollar changes hands) OEM licenses to Dell, HP etc. to make their own Windows-on-ARM systems. Potentially, they could do an OEM license deal that enabled WoA to ship with Parallels or VMWare. But why would we hear about that until there's actually a stable solution that works?

It's quite true that you can't buy a retail WoA license yet, and it might never happen, but there's no particular cause to be pessimistic while there would be no point in releasing one.

What we do know is that Apple are not supporting booting alternate OSs (i.e. Boot Camp) on M1. They will support virtualisation. Federighi said it point blank. Quick google will give you lots of references to that.

To run Windows on Boot Camp, without Apple support, MS would potentially need to reverse-engineer Mac Os in order to write Windows drivers for all the functionality which is now implemented in proprietary Apple Silicon. Not impossible, but a lot of work, prone to triggering Apple's lawyers, and likely to result in incomplete/unstable drivers not up to MS standards. To run in a VM, however, you don't need native Apple Silicon drivers - the Hypervisor provides a virtual device which it implements using MacOS frameworks. Hence, the WoA preview is already running on the Parallels preview, complete with graphics acceleration etc.

The later Federighi "up to Microsoft" comments were referring to virtualisation and the fact that there's a M1 Hypervisor "backend" already built into MacOS. Which is true, but there's still a lot of work to turn that into a full-blown hypervisor app with virtual graphics devices etc. Hence Parallels still being in tech preview.

 

[ducknalddon]

Apple would provide drivers if Microsoft would license win on arm

I doubt that. During the Apple Silicon launch they said Bootcamp installations had fallen from 15% of users to 2%. I don't think running Windows is that important to Apple anymore. In fact I'm not sure it's that important to Microsoft either.

The most I expect to see is some kind of Windows in the cloud offering.

 

[richinaus]

I would say good functional emulation of 3D software, which would include games is not gonna happen on Windows ARM anytime even remotely soon is my guess. And Since Windows is more of 3D home ground than MAC, Microsoft have a problem. Apple is more or less starting on a clean sheet with 3D now. Investing a lot into it. So intel/AMD Windows gonna be home to 3D the upcoming closest years.

3D is vastly better on a pc than the intel Macs, so arm macs are even worse.
a couple of apps like C4D and octane are native with Unity I believe.

I assume from your post you are referencing native mac M apps. Gaming I couldn’t care about as the Xbox does that.

just hope than Apple pull out some amazing GPU at WWDC, that may inspire developers.

 

[sebban]

Within the span of three posts, you shift from saying the XPS has better cooling than the Mac to saying the Macs are "best in class" for cooling. The Epic suit is irrelevant to the question of running windows on a Mac though, as that is a case of Epic wanting to keep more money instead of complying with either the Apple App Store or Google Play Store terms of service. The motivation for greed is why they are currently suing both Apple and Google and also trying to get state legislatures in states like South Dakota to pass legislation they wrote that would force Apple and Google to allow competing app stores on their platforms.



Wrong. The issue in the creative space isn't the applications themselves. The vast majority of those either have already been recompiled for the M1 or run just find under Rosetta 2. The issue is that many of the plugins either use older frameworks that are no longer supported or are 32-bit only, which means they wouldn't even run on an Intel Mac running Catalina or later.



Google File Stream isn't working because Google doesn't want to rewrite it for the M1. As far as 3D/rendering software goes, the underlying APIs (e.g. Metal) are identical to the Intel Macs, and the issue is the plugins, which are usually developed by third parties rather than the software developers themselves.






UE4 is a gaming engine, so Epic's crusade against Apple will have no effect on the 3D market as a whole. Apple has been at the forefront of 3D software (which is more than just gaming related apps) for decades, just as it has been the go to for publishing, music production, etc. in the same timespan. How is Apple starting with a "clean sheet" when they have already brought their existing APIs and tools to the M1?

1. Xps and macbook are both best in class for cooling never stated anything else, nitpicking about obsolete details is irrelevant.

2. Apple and Epic Suite has a lot to do with the future of unreal engine on Mac ofcourse. Epic don’t like Apple now and that is a fact. They decide were to put their software.

3. I’ve tested a vast majority of software on both intel and M1 Macs, and the compabilty issues I’m speaking of only impacts M1 macs. Do your research.

4. Epic’s Unreal is not only a game engine. It’s the leading place for real time graphics as well. Which matters a lot.

5. Apple giving money to the likes of Otoy and Redshift developers for porting 3D software to Mac. Then in Apples AR, 3D is essential. At the same time current support for 3D creation on mac is weak. Support for games is pretty non existant. So yes altogether one can argue apple starting on a clean sheet with 3D and investing a lot into it.

 

[sebban]

I see what you mean, but most of these things have to do with the fact that Apple is changing their extension model as well as with these industries lacking agility. These are often large, complex codebases of mediocre quality, which are difficult to maintain. Apple was never a good choice if you need software stability, they change the system stuff too often.




It can really go either way at this point. Apple's own GPUs are potentially very interesting for gaming, but they require the developer to adopt their proprietary frameworks. Also, Apple has a unique advantage in VR — they don't need a large and hot GPU to drive VR, not to mention that they have some dedicated hardware to support efficient foveated rendering. It depends on how the developers react. At least one upcoming AAA title (Baldur's Gates 3) has already committed to supporting Apple Silicon, I am sure that more will follow. If Epic decides to scrap Mac support from UE4, they might lose market share to Unity. It's a complicated matter.



if I remember correctly, Appel did gain market share, but I doubt it had much to do with their ability to run Windows. If you don't care about macOS/OS X, there are better options out there. In the end, a Mac is a very expensive computer and using it to run Windows is a bit... suboptimal, especially on laptops (poor energy management, outdated drivers etc.).

Personally, I believe that Apple is comfortable with it's ~10% market share. They are not after the total PC market share (which is dominated by slow, low-quality boxes used in offices — not much money can be made from users who refuse to spend more than $500 on a computer), they are after the premium PC market share. And Apple is doing quite well here. They basically own the AIO market, the Mac Mini is a very popular office box in it's own segment (my university uses them exclusively for classrooms — that's alone several thousands of minis) and the Mac laptop is a de-facto standard for premium laptops. I am fairly sure that Apple sells more of >$1200 laptops than any other non-gaming laptop.

I agree with you in general! Thank you for good posts.

(but the “change kernel” can be because of hardware changes. I this is the case that it’s tempting to pick a certain technical reason, but at the end of the day what worked before and didn’t after is the only thing that is the effect of the actions)

 

[richinaus]

1. Xps and macbook are both best in class for cooling never stated anything else, nitpicking about obsolete details is irrelevant.

2. Apple and Epic Suite has a lot to do with the future of unreal engine on Mac ofcourse. Epic don’t like Apple now and that is a fact. They decide were to put their software.

3. I’ve tested a vast majority of software on both intel and M1 Macs, and the compabilty issues I’m speaking of only impacts M1 macs. Do your research.

4. Epic’s Unreal is not only a game engine. It’s the leading place for real time graphics as well. Which matters a lot.

5. Apple giving money to the likes of Otoy and Redshift developers for porting 3D software to Mac. Then in Apples AR, 3D is essential. At the same time current support for 3D creation on mac is weak. Support for games is pretty non existant. So yes altogether one can argue apple starting on a clean sheet with 3D and investing a lot into it.

Great post, agree with all of it.
I am very concerned about epics support for the engine and Twinmotion on macOS. Games are not the only things the engine is used for.....

I think apple need to buy Blender or create their own pro 3D content creation app to get ahead, otherwise I can’t see things improving very quickly.

 

[dmccloud]

Apple needs to offer Windows on ARM (WoA) as a BTO OS option and support it with drivers otherwise responsibility falls on Microsoft which isn't going to happen and even on PC it has never happened since it's always been the device or component manufacturers' responsibility to provide drivers. Otherwise, it benefits Microsoft software and services sales to have more devices in their ecosystem like Lenovo Flex 5G, Samsung Galaxy Book S, etc. WoA devices.

In a nutshell, Apple might say they won't restrict other OS' for PR but it doesn't mean squat if they don't provide drivers and it's closed source.

Apple can't do that because Microsoft won't allow it. WoA is only available to system builders, which by Microsoft's definition means existing Windows system builders. Microsoft would have to first change the licensing structure to allow it to legitimately be run on a Mac, then they would have to work with Apple on the driver side of things. Furthermore, Apple is never going to make any other OS a BTO option, because that makes no sense from their perspective. Apple is on record as stating that virtualization is the path going forward for running alternate OSes on a Mac, so Boot Camp or a BTO option are both out of the conversation.

 

[dmccloud]

1. Xps and macbook are both best in class for cooling never stated anything else, nitpicking about obsolete details is irrelevant.

2. Apple and Epic Suite has a lot to do with the future of unreal engine on Mac ofcourse. Epic don’t like Apple now and that is a fact. They decide were to put their software.

3. I’ve tested a vast majority of software on both intel and M1 Macs, and the compabilty issues I’m speaking of only impacts M1 macs. Do your research.

4. Epic’s Unreal is not only a game engine. It’s the leading place for real time graphics as well. Which matters a lot.

5. Apple giving money to the likes of Otoy and Redshift developers for porting 3D software to Mac. Then in Apples AR, 3D is essential. At the same time current support for 3D creation on mac is weak. Support for games is pretty non existant. So yes altogether one can argue apple starting on a clean sheet with 3D and investing a lot into it.

Unreal Engine is not the only tool around for 3D gaming, and Epic are the ones shooting themselves in the foot with regards to both Apple and Google. I own an M1 Mac, and I know what does and doesn't run. So not only have I done my research, I'm using it on a daily basis. Gaming is also not nearly as "nonexistent" on the Mac as you falsely claim. Blizzard dropped an M1-native version of WoW on launch day for the new Macs, Apple has emphasized AAA titles such as Tomb Raider and Baldur's Gate 3 at WWDC and the M1 event respectively, and Steam Play (only available in beta at the moment) allows you to run games that either a) are still 32-bit only or b) Windows only) on any Mac. I know this because I've been able to play both Final Fantasy XV Windows Edition and Cyberpunk 2077 that way. So while Apple themselves may not be investing heavily on the gaming side of things, major players in the space such as Activision Blizzard and Steam are. You also keep referring to 3D creation almost exclusively in the context of gaming, ignoring the vast availability of 3D software, and UE still is not relaly used outside the gaming industry, regardless of your misinformed claims to the contrary. Here's a partial list of 3D apps being ported to the M1, and this was from November, so the list has only grown since then:

Which CG applications support Apple’s new M1 chips? | CG Channel

Discover which 3D, image-editing and rendering apps will support the first Apple Silicon processors when they ship next week.

www.cgchannel.com

 

[leman]

Apple needs to offer Windows on ARM (WoA) as a BTO OS option and support it with drivers otherwise responsibility falls on Microsoft which isn't going to happen and even on PC it has never happened since it's always been the device or component manufacturers' responsibility to provide drivers. Otherwise, it benefits Microsoft software and services sales to have more devices in their ecosystem like Lenovo Flex 5G, Samsung Galaxy Book S, etc. WoA devices.

And why would Apple do any of these things? They don’t even provide Vulcan drivers on macOS. Do you really think that they would commit to maintaining a huge, complex driver stack for a competitor OS?

In a nutshell, Apple might say they won't restrict other OS' for PR but it doesn't mean squat if they don't provide drivers and it's closed source.

You don’t need native drivers for virtualization.

 

[richinaus]

So now you're resorting to insults instead of addressing the issues with your arguments. Unreal Engine is not the only tool around for 3D gaming, and Epic are the ones shooting themselves in the foot with regards to both Apple and Google. I own an M1 Mac, and I know what does and doesn't run. So not only have I done my research, I'm using it on a daily basis. Gaming is also not nearly as "nonexistent" on the Mac as you falsely claim. Blizzard dropped an M1-native version of WoW on launch day for the new Macs, Apple has emphasized AAA titles such as Tomb Raider and Baldur's Gate 3 at WWDC and the M1 event respectively, and Steam Play (only available in beta at the moment) allows you to run games that either a) are still 32-bit only or b) Windows only) on any Mac. I know this because I've been able to play both Final Fantasy XV Windows Edition and Cyberpunk 2077 that way. So while Apple themselves may not be investing heavily on the gaming side of things, major players in the space such as Activision Blizzard and Steam are. You also keep referring to 3D creation almost exclusively in the context of gaming, ignoring the vast availability of 3D software, and UE still is not relaly used outside the gaming industry, regardless of your misinformed claims to the contrary. Here's a partial list of 3D apps being ported to the M1, and this was from November, so the list has only grown since then:

Which CG applications support Apple’s new M1 chips? | CG Channel

Discover which 3D, image-editing and rendering apps will support the first Apple Silicon processors when they ship next week.

www.cgchannel.com

So not much at all then supporting M1.....

Also UE is used a lot in arch vis and they have made a big push in this area. Twinmotion is made using the UE also.....

It is the content creation apps that are currently missing. The games are not the issue.

 

[richinaus]

Macs were [are] not great for 3D before the transistion [due to lack of Nvidia support and apps developed well for Macos]

I feel the only ways things will get better are :

1. Apple create some amazing GPU that pairs with the M CPU’s
2. Apple create their own 3D app [buy one] that is supported like final cut / logic, and priced similar.

Developers simply do not seem to want to invest in the mac due to the user base. They are a consumer organisation now, and everybody I know who uses computers professionally for 2D + 3D design work use PC’s. I know why.........

 

[mi7chy]

And why would Apple do any of these things? They don’t even provide Vulcan drivers on macOS. Do you really think that they would commit to maintaining a huge, complex driver stack for a competitor OS?

You don’t need native drivers for virtualization.

No drivers so no Windows which is the discussion of this thread so you lose versatility and usability vs x64 Macs/Macbooks.

VM is antiquated and a worse experience. The world has moved on to containers.

bare metal > container > VM

 

[Maconplasma]

Macs were [are] not great for 3D before the transistion [due to lack of Nvidia support and apps developed well for Macos]

I feel the only ways things will get better are :

1. Apple create some amazing GPU that pairs with the M CPU’s
2. Apple create their own 3D app [buy one] that is supported like final cut / logic, and priced similar.

Developers simply do not seem to want to invest in the mac due to the user base. They are a consumer organisation now, and everybody I know who uses computers professionally for 2D + 3D design work use PC’s. I know why.........

From the first letter to the last letter of this post is filled with wrong!

 

[richinaus]

From the first letter to the last letter of this post is filled with wrong!

Thanks for the counter argument informing us all of what is the right way for things to get better on the mac.

 

[BigMcGuire]

I use Windows 10 with Visual Studio 2019 Pro compiling a massive application with thousands of files all via Parallels. It’s fast enough for me and works very well. It’s not fast enough for gaming though, even with an EGPU.

I’ve done Bootcamp and WOW that was a smooth experience ... if only I could have gotten my EGPU to work on my 2020 MBP 13’. (I spent a day trying) - it would have been amazing.

I love my i7 2020 MBP 13’. I need Windows and I love my 32GB of ram. I really enjoy my EGPU. I’ve been running this setup for quite a few years now. Works really well for what I need.

I look forward to Apple Silicon’s GPU offerings (I can’t wait to get rid of my EGPU without breaking the bank), but I really need to run Windows 10 (non-arm) for now and I don’t see that changing anytime soon.

Do the fans on my MBP 13’ come on? Yeah, especially when starting up Windows 10 but it isn’t bad.

I’ve been using Shadow Cloud to do my Windows gaming for the last year. Really hope they stick around.

 

[kundanno]

I have been running Windows on Arm dev builds on M1 MBA using Parallels Tech Preview since it was released. I have another dev build of Windows on an Intel MBP (2018). When I patch/upgrade the two instances the Windows-on-M1 instance finishes much faster than the Intel version. So far the Windows-on-M1 instance is zippy, graphics performance is quite sturdy and most apps run as X64 or X86 or Arm64 (only Arm32 apps are not supported, and Apps like Teams that do a hardware check). Mind you the entire “stack” all the way from MacOS, Parallels and Windows is a beta but the performance is solid to the point where I have not touched my Intel based laptops in nearly 4 months now.

 

[eltoslightfoot]

Doubt we'll ever see usable Windows or Linux on M1 if Apple doesn't provide drivers and they remain closed source.

Uhhh....

Corellium Linux on M1

Ubuntu also

Sooo....yeah you can totally run Linux.

 

[Gnattu]

Uhhh....

Corellium Linux on M1

Ubuntu also

Sooo....yeah you can totally run Linux.

You can "boot" does not necessarily means that is "useful".

You even need USB dongle to access internet because the Wi-Fi driver is missing.