Windows on M1?

[Maconplasma]

Apple needs to offer Windows on ARM (WoA) as a BTO OS option and support it with drivers

Uh no. Why should they do that? That makes no sense. Apple has an OS for their computers. They are not trying to turn Macs into a Windows machines. You've gotta be kidding.

otherwise responsibility falls on Microsoft

As it already is and should be. Also you don't need every computer running Windows. That's a monopoly. Strange how some here get agitated if Apple gets a small amount of dominance in something but these same people want Microsoft to dominate the world with Windows. We should be living in a mixed tech world and not running one main OS. SMH.

 

[mi7chy]

You can "boot" does not necessarily means that is "useful".

You even need USB dongle to access internet because the Wi-Fi driver is missing.

No GPU acceleration or sound either for Corellium Linux.

Asahi Linux is even missing more drivers.

https://github.com/AsahiLinux/docs/wiki/Tasks

Good luck totally running Linux. ?

 

[leman]

No drivers so no Windows which is the discussion of this thread so you lose versatility and usability vs x64 Macs/Macbooks.

You win some, you lose some. If compatibility with Windows was important to Apple, they wouldn’t go custom.

Then again, even the technical Windows preview comfortably runs on my M1 with all legacy applications I need, so no, I don’t feel like I lost any versatility.

VM is antiquated and a worse experience. The world has moved on to containers.

bare metal > container > VM

When was the last time you ran a GUI application in a container? Exactly. Completely different tech for completely different purpose. VMs are a great solution that is not going anywhere, and if you need containers - well, be my guest, download Docker and container ahead.

 

[anshuvorty]

Does Windows run better on an M1 over an Intel Mac? Couldn’t Apple have a larger slice of the pc market if they made it easier to use Windows? What made the experience on an Intel Mac not great, and could an M1 improve this experience?

No, it doesn't and it depends on how you define better. ARM-based Windows can run on M1 Macs but the software compatibility with legacy x86 apps isn't present. You also can't run x86 version of Windows on an M1 Mac.

So, in my opinion, if I want to define better as faster and compatible with my legacy apps, then no, Windows doesn't run better on M1 Macs.

 

[mi7chy]

When was the last time you ran a GUI application in a container? Exactly. Completely different tech for completely different purpose. VMs are a great solution that is not going anywhere, and if you need containers - well, be my guest, download Docker and container ahead.

Just because you're clueless about it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. As a matter of fact, it recently surpassed MacOS and is a desktop GUI that runs GUI apps from another OS in container but you're going to have to do your own homework to clue yourself in.

 

[leman]

Just because you're clueless about it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. As a matter of fact, it recently surpassed MacOS and is a desktop GUI that runs GUI apps from another OS in container but you're going to have to do your own homework to clue yourself in.

Would you give us a link to this solution please? I am curious to have a look. I can't say that I see any inherent benefit over the traditional VM for normal desktop user here: it's not like you are saving anything, and the setup overhead is likely higher.

Anyway, the point still stands: macOS offers you plethora of virtualization options, so if you like containerized apps, you are free to use them. Native Windows boot is not on Apple's list, why would they care if Parallels can offer a solution that satisfies the majority of users. And I doubt that Microsoft is willing to invest in native drivers.

 

[UBS28]

I doubt that. During the Apple Silicon launch they said Bootcamp installations had fallen from 15% of users to 2%. I don't think running Windows is that important to Apple anymore. In fact I'm not sure it's that important to Microsoft either.

The most I expect to see is some kind of Windows in the cloud offering.

Is Apple spying on what we are running on our computers?

 

[leman]

Is Apple spying on what we are running on our computers?

They don't even have to. They can just count the number of bootcamp driver downloads to get a reliable estimate.

 

[UBS28]

They don't even have to. They can just count the number of bootcamp driver downloads to get a reliable estimate.

So Apple is only counting the number of downloads of Bootcamp? Well, then 2% is quite misleading, because you cannot install Bootcamp on the new M1 Mac's, so why would people download it?

People who have bootcamp installations, will not download bootcamp every day.

 

[leman]

So Apple is only counting the number of downloads of Bootcamp?

I have no idea, I am just speculating how these statistics can be collected without any usage data. Apple also collects anonymous usage data (if opted in), so they have pletora of possibilities.

Well, then 2% is quite misleading, because you cannot install Bootcamp on the new M1 Mac's, so why would people download it?

What does this have to do with M1 machines? The supposed quote was about Intel machines.

People who have bootcamp installations, will not download bootcamp every day.

No, but number of downloads can still be used to estimate the number of total installations with a reasonable degree of accuracy. It's a relatively trivial exercise in data science and there are many ways of approaching it.

 

[UBS28]

I have no idea, I am just speculating how these statistics can be collected without any usage data. Apple also collects anonymous usage data (if opted in), so they have pletora of possibilities.



What does this have to do with M1 machines? The supposed quote was about Intel machines.



No, but number of downloads can still be used to estimate the number of total installations with a reasonable degree of accuracy. It's a relatively trivial exercise in data science and there are many ways of approaching it.

Point is, people will only download Bootcamp on new machines usually. And the new machines (M1 Mac's), don't support Bootcamp. So it is more like the one leading to the other, rather than Bootcamp being less popular.

And this makes the downloads per month a pretty poor estimate of the number of Bootcamp installation on Intel Mac's out there, because people probably only installed it once ages ago.

 

[Gerdi]

And this makes the downloads per month a pretty poor estimate of the number of Bootcamp installation on Intel Mac's out there, because people probably only installed it once ages ago.

In theory you can correlate new Macs sold with downloads. The estimate is still poor, because users can download a certain SW several times - so you need to adapt the statistics using an estimate on how downloads are related to unique installations.
In any case i would assume Apple uses telemetry for such statistics.

 

[leman]

Point is, people will only download Bootcamp on new machines usually. And the new machines (M1 Mac's), don't support Bootcamp. So it is more like the one leading to the other, rather than Bootcamp being less popular.

To make it clear: I do not know which quote @ducknalddon refers to or whether these numbers are accurate. From what I understand it these alleged numbers were describing the situation before any Apple Silicon Macs were commercially available.

And this makes the downloads per month a pretty poor estimate of the number of Bootcamp installation on Intel Mac's out there, because people probably only installed it once ages ago.

As I've stated before: this is a trivial exercise in data science. There are known ways to model the number of existing Macs and there are simple ways to estimate the number of Macs with Bootcamps installed as well as the estimation error. Maybe you don't see how this can be done (and I don't mean this as an insult), but it does not mean that an expert statistician would have similar troubles.

If the only thing you care about is dynamics of change, a simple number of downloads per month normalize by the number of Macs on the market will do the trick. This will give you a time series which you can subject to seasonality and trend analysis. These are all trivial things to someone that works with this kind fo stuff every day. If you want to estimate how many computers have Bootcamp installed on them, it is a bit tricky but again possible by extrapolating from the available telemetry.

 

[ricom2ger]

Apple Software Update is checking on Windows startup with Apple server.

 

[leman]

Apple Software Update is checking on Windows startup with Apple server.

And there you have. It's even more trivial than I suggested. Shame on me for not thinking about this simplest of options

 

[eltoslightfoot]

You can "boot" does not necessarily means that is "useful".

You even need USB dongle to access internet because the Wi-Fi driver is missing.

Still, it is there...heck that is Linux support sometimes. I remember when they were missing GTX drivers for YEARS past when they came out.

 

[AttoA]

Unreal Engine is not the only tool around for 3D gaming, and Epic are the ones shooting themselves in the foot with regards to both Apple and Google. I own an M1 Mac, and I know what does and doesn't run. So not only have I done my research, I'm using it on a daily basis. Gaming is also not nearly as "nonexistent" on the Mac as you falsely claim. Blizzard dropped an M1-native version of WoW on launch day for the new Macs, Apple has emphasized AAA titles such as Tomb Raider and Baldur's Gate 3 at WWDC and the M1 event respectively, and Steam Play (only available in beta at the moment) allows you to run games that either a) are still 32-bit only or b) Windows only) on any Mac. I know this because I've been able to play both Final Fantasy XV Windows Edition and Cyberpunk 2077 that way. So while Apple themselves may not be investing heavily on the gaming side of things, major players in the space such as Activision Blizzard and Steam are. You also keep referring to 3D creation almost exclusively in the context of gaming, ignoring the vast availability of 3D software, and UE still is not relaly used outside the gaming industry, regardless of your misinformed claims to the contrary. Here's a partial list of 3D apps being ported to the M1, and this was from November, so the list has only grown since then:

Which CG applications support Apple’s new M1 chips? | CG Channel

Discover which 3D, image-editing and rendering apps will support the first Apple Silicon processors when they ship next week.

www.cgchannel.com

Steam Play on Mac? That's the first I've heard of it - do you have a tutorial link to enable that?

 

[Maconplasma]

Steam Play on Mac? That's the first I've heard of it - do you have a tutorial link to enable that?

Then you haven't been on Steam for very long. Perhaps not current in the past Steam has had games for both Windows and Mac, but no doubt the Mac versions were ports.

 

[dmccloud]

Steam Play on Mac? That's the first I've heard of it - do you have a tutorial link to enable that?

You first have to enable beta downloads for Steam, then after updating the client, you go back in and enable Steam Play.

 

[leman]

Then you haven't been on Steam for very long. Perhaps not current in the past Steam has had games for both Windows and Mac, but no doubt the Mac versions were ports.

That’s not what Steam Play is...

 

[Maconplasma]

That’s not what Steam Play is...

Sorry I haven't been on Steam in years. I still get emails from them about discounted games. Not familiar with Steam Play. I just thought the other user was stating that there's never been games for Mac on Steam.

 

[leman]

You first have to enable beta downloads for Steam, then after updating the client, you go back in and enable Steam Play.

I can't seem to find this option... can you give us a bit more details where it is located?

 

[JMacHack]

Within the span of three posts, you shift from saying the XPS has better cooling than the Mac to saying the Macs are "best in class" for cooling. The Epic suit is irrelevant to the question of running windows on a Mac though, as that is a case of Epic wanting to keep more money instead of complying with either the Apple App Store or Google Play Store terms of service. The motivation for greed is why they are currently suing both Apple and Google and also trying to get state legislatures in states like South Dakota to pass legislation they wrote that would force Apple and Google to allow competing app stores on their platforms.



Wrong. The issue in the creative space isn't the applications themselves. The vast majority of those either have already been recompiled for the M1 or run just find under Rosetta 2. The issue is that many of the plugins either use older frameworks that are no longer supported or are 32-bit only, which means they wouldn't even run on an Intel Mac running Catalina or later.



Google File Stream isn't working because Google doesn't want to rewrite it for the M1. As far as 3D/rendering software goes, the underlying APIs (e.g. Metal) are identical to the Intel Macs, and the issue is the plugins, which are usually developed by third parties rather than the software developers themselves.






UE4 is a gaming engine, so Epic's crusade against Apple will have no effect on the 3D market as a whole. Apple has been at the forefront of 3D software (which is more than just gaming related apps) for decades, just as it has been the go to for publishing, music production, etc. in the same timespan. How is Apple starting with a "clean sheet" when they have already brought their existing APIs and tools to the M1?

iirc, UE4 is also used extensively in special effects and cgi. I’ve heard that The Mandalorian uses it anyway

 

[dmccloud]

I can't seem to find this option... can you give us a bit more details where it is located?

When you open Preferences for Steam, it's right there on the main preferences panel.

 

[AttoA]

When you open Preferences for Steam, it's right there on the main preferences panel.

I've updated to the beta, but I can't find the "Steam Play" option - in which menu is that located?