Windows XP Booting on Mac Contest Over

[corywoolf]

Glad I decided to go with the 1.83 Ghz MBP with a Dell 20" monitor instead of the 20" iMac! Can't wait to be playing Half Life 2 on my widescreen.

 

[corywoolf]

I just can't understand yet, especially given the potential risks to Mac-native software, if the solution turns out too easy in the near future...and NO, I don't see any value in having Winblows on my Mac...VPC and the like are more than enough...and for gaming go buy a PS3, it's much cheaper.

How is a PS3 going to be much cheaper???? Hmmmm.... $500 PS3 + $60 games vs. Windows XP Professional ($150 on new egg) + $30-$50 games....

VPC is weak too, sounds like you have a little mactel ENVY??? Don't have one yet, so you bash the privileged who do.

Edit: and no, I doubt there will be much of a risk for OS X software (until Microsoft officially sells XP made to run natively on the Mac without patches), If anything it adds pressure to Apple to turn out better products that can compete with the XP only Pro Apps. Still laughing that Adobe Premier is coming back to the Mac. Within the coming months I wouldn't be shocked to hear VPC 2007 is going to be the last release of VPC and that Apple and Microsoft have came up with a special version of their OS's to run on mactels at the same time. Think Dashboard, they could even add a 5th icon for windows, although some might want easier access then having to launch Dashboard every time they want to switch OSs.

 

[1macker1]

Blah, I say this should be stopped. If Apple refuses to let OSX be loaded on a PC, I say MS should stop people from loading Windows on Mac hardware.

 

[jimN]

you know, I don't actually mind that people want to run windows & OS X side by side on the same machine. I certainly understand why you'd want to do it, the thing that gets me is how everyone (ok most) people in these forums go around bashing Windows users & M$, but now that they can run windows on their mac they are giddy with excitement over it.

I guess I'm just saying that "silly windows users" comments should probably stop now since it's apparent you don't all hate windows as much as you claim.

it's not a case of wanting to use windows because they like it but because with the majority of the computer world running windows inevitably there is a lot of software that demands it. Most people want dual booting for system specific games or programs, needing to use an OS and wanting to use it are two different things.

 

[aLbAn]

Thanks for seeing the obvious, at least one additional person perceives what will happen in the near future, if that effort becomes OFFICIALLY supported or TOO EASY.

Sometimes I have the impression that this forum is full of 15-year olds who are only interested in their individual gaming needs, as they have NO idea about the medium-term or long-term impact of WindowsOnMac; so we see a lot of excited posts regarding "my chances to play Counter Strike Source or Star Wars whatever", paying no attention to the prospective developers out there that will just PULL ALL STOPS in software porting efforts.

Already responding to another poster, it's NOT about those that have already spent a lot of R&D on Mac software, like MS or Adobe, they will continue with Macs for the time being...it's about those that thought about creating some new for the Mac, like Autodesk or others...they will NOT port anything if the same software can be run on a Windows partition flawlessly.

And why? Because you, Windows supporters, prefer to take the easy route and say "Ah, I don't wanna wait, let's run the Winblows version anyway"; and if Windows is just a boot away, why bother? Why hire 10 Mac programmers when the Windows product is already on the shelves for desperate Mac-go-Windows users? It's so clear I cannot even understand how some people disagree with this fact.

Go figure, y'all...this might be even worse than having OS X on normal PCs. Only blind gamer kids cannot see that (or are not worried anyway); well, soon they will be playing Half-Life 2 on a white box...and they will be happy in a great selfish way...bleargh.

well... you are right on some things. but are you REALLY considering the possibility that Apple will ever support this stuff? that would be cutting your own fingers, and Apple knows that. Apple would have supported BIOS and all that crap if they ever had considered supporting winonmac officially some time in the future. or do you think that Apple does not plan ahead for years with the intel-switch and so on??

another point: you guys seem to forget that people buy macs to run OSX!!!
that means, that whatever other OSes the hardware supports, it wouldn't matter because we use OSX with a reason: because many people consider it to be one of the best OSes at the moment. in other words: an OSX version of any software is still worth the trouble, even if the hardware can run other OSes. it is all comparable to OSX on pc's.... a number of people have done it, but it is nothing more than a gimmick for those people; i seriously doubt that they have ever done anything useful with it. why? because those people prefer windows over OSX. otherwise they would have had a mac already.

 

[Shaker]

Makes you wonder if we'll start to see bootleg Slipstream CD's pop-up on the market such as e-bay or elsewhere.

 

[kungfu]

Apple will do whatever it suits them to do commercially. Hell, if abandoning OS X and selling expensive but very attractive Windows boxes suited them, they'd do that.

see, that's where you're wrong. steve jobs is too much of a perfectionist to adopt an os he has no control over. if he was in it for the money, he wouldn't be at apple. he's a stickler for detail, that's all.

 

[mattfrox]

Question

I know nothing about Mac and very little about OS's in general. Here it goes:

Now that there is a way to run XP on a Mac do you think it will work vice versa? That is: "Is it possible to run Mac OS-X natively on a PC?". I mean non emulator style.

 

[AidenShaw]

The Steve doesn't have the final say...

see, that's where you're wrong. steve jobs is too much of a perfectionist to adopt an os he has no control over. if he was in it for the money, he wouldn't be at apple. he's a stickler for detail, that's all.

Ultimately, Apple's owners will make that decision, not Jobs.

 

[peharri]

The next step

...produce a program that does this:

- Is associated with a ".windows" file type.
- Configures Mac to boot into Windows
- Configures Windows to autorun the app specified in the .windows file.
- Configures Windows to restore Mac system upon app exiting.
- Saves entire state of Mac OS X (running applications, etc) (probably achievable by dumping memory to a great big swap-like file.)
- Reboot.

Confused? Ok, this is how it appears to the user.

User installs, under Windows, WinGame III: The Killing, an amazing FPS/SEU/Platformer that's taking the world by storm and, alas, is only available for Windows.

User sets up "WinGameIII.windows" on the Mac.

Whenever user wants to run WinGame III, they double click on WinGameIII.windows. Within seconds, it's playing.

They exit WinGame III, and it's as if nothing's happened, they're back in Mac OS X, their Safari/Firefox sessions are still there, documents open, etc.

This is probably a nightmare for the "All developers will switch to Windows" mob, but would be rather nice for the rest of us. I don't really care what OS a game runs under, given it takes over the entire PC when it runs anyway. I'm more bothered about production apps, which typically need to be used in cooperation with others.

I'd actually love this for PowerPC/Mac OS 9. Some games, such as SiN and the original UT, work better in OS 9 than under OS X, even if you have the carbonized binaries. I would imagine the save/restore state thing would work quite well if you take advantage of the suspend (Sleep mode) features of Darwin.

 

[dejo]

Ultimately, Apple's owners will make that decision, not Jobs.

"Apple's owners" meaning...? People who uses their products? Stockholders? Some other group? Just seeking clarification here.

 

[mrplow]

Why is it that ANYONE has a professional opinion? You all take this so political and professional... accusations flying about about how we "ripped on windows users" ... you have any idea how many people post to the forum? I highly doubt it's the same users saying one and then the other- no one person speaks on behalf of this forum (perhaps arn)... To say that ANYTHING should not be done on a computer is ludicrous. Why should anyone deny anyone the right to do anything? This goes right along with my hatred for DRM...

Please DON'T ANSWER this because I really don't care about it making some billionaire software company unhappy. I am a user, I own my hardware and my software and I will use it in whatever way I please without the consideration of the rich bastard that created it!

 

[dornoforpyros]

it's not a case of wanting to use windows because they like it but because with the majority of the computer world running windows inevitably there is a lot of software that demands it. Most people want dual booting for system specific games or programs, needing to use an OS and wanting to use it are two different things.

I dunno, just seems that in the same breath people are bashing it embracing it at the same time.

 

[reyesmac]

Apple is using Windows bootability as bait.

Heres a theory. Apple is counting on the Windows booting on a Macintel hype to sell Macintels. They need a large number of macintel owners to get give developers a reason to port their apps over to it. And one day they can disable the hack once they have a large enough user base and developers port enough native apps over. If the developers stop porting to mac, the hack is disabled to protect the Mac OS. If there is a huge wave of developers developing universal binaries Apple can still disable the hack once it has a large enough number of native apps.

Sorry, I can't put it beneath Apple to use hype to sell its machines. Or to use bait and switch tactics to sell Macintels. Until Apple comes out with its own BlueBox solution I don't see them embrasing Windows on a Mac.

What Apple should do is disable all windows hacks and make one of their own. They should allow Windows to boot on a Mac at full speed, but the Mac OS has to run at the same time, it would resemble fast user switching. That way, windows people will have a greater chance of switching since they can't turn the Mac side of the Mac off!

 

[kungfu]

Ultimately, Apple's owners will make that decision, not Jobs.

while steve is around, he's gonna do things his way. maybe in the after-steve, apple will follow money (no matter how perverted its path), but to me, that's just not apple. money follows apple.

business is important, but computers are paramount. (and if by 'owners' you mean shareholders, there ain't no way in hell they'd oust steve at this point)

 

[janstett]

You'll notice that Linux doesn't have very many mainstream applications on it.

I'll take a couple of examples of why being able to run Windows is a BAD THING.

1) I'm an engineer. My company wants me to produce drawings in AutoCAD format but since there is no MacOSX version I would normally run VectorWorks or some other Mac only product that can produce AutoCAD files even if there may be slight problems. Now that I can run it natively on Windows, I'll use AutoCAD instead of buying the comparative Mac product. The Mac CAD developers die off gradually.

2) I'm a 3D artist. There's a kick ass product for 3D only on Windows. I boot into Windows and use that instead of buying a comparable OSX product. 3D Mac app developers who don't want to compete for a dwindling market drop out of the market.

3) I'm an accountant. Not content with MYOB, Incognito or the mess that is Quicken on the Mac, I boot into Windows and run Sage. Mac accountancy software dies off even more than the poor state it is today.

I hope you can see why being able to run Windows applications at full speed is a bad thing for the Mac market in general. It may not be bad for users in the short term but in the medium to long term you want strong Mac development, even if it means that excludes the heavyweights from the Windows world. Many Mac only developers exist because the big Windows only companies don't bother with the Mac.

Your argument is insightful and well thought out. However, I must point out that the status quo (holding out for Mac-only versions of programs) is futile and will inevitably lead to the same outcome as running Windows applications, or at best it will maintain the status quo for a time longer.

Yellow Box (apps developed with Apple developer tools that run on both OS X and Windows) is the only way out of this quagmire.

 

[quicksilver77]

Yep, I pose the same question to the enlightened new MR members here...

This is getting to be a very old and tiresome question posed by people not in the know. Please try and pull ur head out of your ass and read. There are 29 pages on this thread and I bet 25 of them are about the value of Windows on a mac.

 

[quicksilver77]

Why is it that ANYONE has a professional opinion? You all take this so political and professional... accusations flying about about how we "ripped on windows users" ... you have any idea how many people post to the forum? I highly doubt it's the same users saying one and then the other- no one person speaks on behalf of this forum (perhaps arn)... To say that ANYTHING should not be done on a computer is ludicrous. Why should anyone deny anyone the right to do anything? This goes right along with my hatred for DRM...

Please DON'T ANSWER this because I really don't care about it making some billionaire software company unhappy. I am a user, I own my hardware and my software and I will use it in whatever way I please without the consideration of the rich bastard that created it!

And Steve Jobs is poor?

 

[Windshadow]

Strong arguments are being made on both sides of this and as I am involved with the best CAD software for the Mac right now (Concepts Unlimited 3.0) I understand the danger... but what about Game software that will never be ported? The Elder Scrolls games jump to mind Morowind was never ported and they have said that Oblivion will also never get a OS X Port... I would Far rather be able to run it on an Intel Mac Than either have to buy a PC or an XBOX 360 the Game is the only one announced for the XBOX360 I have any interest in and on the 360 you give up access to the modding that is in the PC version... and the extra cost to run it on my 20" iMac is just that of a copy of XP and the game... the other options cost far more I have a 3 year old PC that I use ONLY for morowind it would cost me more than $500 to upgrade it to run Oblivion and I am looking forward to giveing it to charity once I can run the Elder Scrolls games on my 20" iMac

The point now is not whether this is good or bad for Apple... the XP Djinn is out of his bottle and once the video card and Bluetooth driver issues are sorted gamers will be doing this...

Take Photoshop... I own Mac Photoshop I do not own PC photoshop... I am not going to spend $800 to get another copy to run under XP for a few months... I am going to run Photoshop and other software that is too slow under rosettea on my old Dual 2 gig G5 tower and play and develop and work on my new 20" imac untill the universal Photoshop and other neded pro apps and the intel Mac Tower computer are released... people who Use photoshop in their work already have a fairly powerful G5 and they will either not change over untill the universal photoshop and tower macs are out or they will do like I did and get a core duo now as a 2ed machine

 

[janstett]

Good news for...

Consumers, now you can natively run Windows on the best looking and best performing computers in the world.

Well, they're just PCs like everybody else. I have a MBP, is it magically a better performer than any other Dual Core 2.0 GHz box especially those ALSO using the same motherboard?

Bad news for...

Dell, IBM, Sony and every single PC manufacturer. Usually PC users would not consider Apple because, it can't run Windows, but now, every single Intel Mac will compete directly with PC manufacturers, and frankly, the Mac is superior in all aspects, plus you get OS X!

Yes, but there is a flip side to this, it's a double-edged sword. What about when Apple's hardware ISN'T superior? For example, if I want an ultraportable subnotebook, Apple's 12" Powerbook is a heavy porker at 5 pounds. What if I want to run OSX on a Thinkpad X60 which weighs half as much as a PorkerBook?

Mixed news for...

Apple Software, think for a minute here, Mac OS X and Windows used to compete from different hardware, Apple for the Mac OS X or PCs for Windows. Now they will be able to compete on the same computer since speed is no longer an issue because Windows can run natively on the Mac. People will be able to administer their computer through one OS and use the other to run specific applications for that OS. Basically the battle will be for which OS ends up being the "main OS" in which people usually work, and which OS ends up being the "bitch OS" which people use to run specific applications. If people like OS X better, then they will do most of their stuff on OS X and boot Windows when they want to play a game or use some Windows only software. The opposite is true. In my opinion, OS X is superior to Windows in most aspects, the only draw back from OS X used to be software that would not run on it, that is no longer a problem, so this means...

I have to break some news here that people may not want to hear.

Apple has always been a two-headed beast -- hardware and software. And as long as Steve Jobs is CEO, the hardware comes first and the software comes last.

That's why no generic OS X for PCs, even though it would mean $99 sales for Apple and application sales as a result. That's why no iLife for Windows.

My previous company dealt with Apple, we wanted to make a device that would allow iPods to stream to UPnP compliant network devices. Apple's people told us they don't care unless it sells more iPods or Macintoshes.

Given this attitude which comes straight from the top, let me reiterate the lesson: selling Macintosh hardware comes first, selling OS X comes last.

So, if Jobs can sell hardware he doesn't care about OS X as much. I'm sure if they ever do offer Windows pre-loaded you'll still have to pay the OS X license fee. More fuel for the Dvorak theories...

I keep saying Apple should realize hardware is a commodity and software is what's important. OSX, Quicktime, iTunes, iLife, Final Cut Studio, all those are the true magic. Maybe there is some hope and Apple will release these applications into the Windows world as Yellow Box apps.

 

[Abulia]

I guess I'm just saying that "silly windows users" comments should probably stop now since it's apparent you don't all hate windows as much as you claim.

Especially since this sub-forum has more people viewing it than the rest of MacRumors combined.

 

[damon5334]

I just can't understand yet, especially given the potential risks to Mac-native software...

Are you talking about Mac-native software development? Because you do know that Windows XP can't see your Mac partition, right? Therefore everyone's fear about spyware and viruses moving from their windows partition to their mac partition is foolish. In fact, given the fact that file sharing is easier with virtualization, I'd say that'd be more of a risk (if that stuff even ran on a mac in the first place).

 

[whooleytoo]

Are you talking about Mac-native software development? Because you do know that Windows XP can't see your Mac partition, right? Therefore everyone's fear about spyware and viruses moving from their windows partition to their mac partition is foolish. In fact, given the fact that file sharing is easier with virtualization, I'd say that'd be more of a risk (if that stuff even ran on a mac in the first place).

Are you certain about that? Windows apps might not recognise the partition format, but they would still see the partition - so they might not be able to copy files to the OSX partition easily, but they might be able to wipe it.

 

[cr2sh]

so they might not be able to copy files to the OSX partition easily, but they might be able to wipe it.

Wow.. that is a scary thought.

 

[janstett]

This was posted from my MacBook Pro 2.0 GHz running Windows XP SP2

Did anyone else cringe while reading this?

I'm posting this from my Gateway P4 2.5 GHz running OS X. I booted it specifically just for this message

It's a different world!