Apps WorkOutDoors: New workout features

[MarcellusChan]

Hi. Ever since I installed WorkOutDoors, I stopped using the native workout app on Apple Watch.

In my most recent run, WorkOutDoors stated that the GPS distance is 12% longer than my session.

What are the pros and cons of switching to GPS on WorkOutDoors for distance (instead of Apple)?

Thanks in advance!

Reply

 

[cfc]

Hi. Ever since I installed WorkOutDoors, I stopped using the native workout app on Apple Watch.

In my most recent run, WorkOutDoors stated that the GPS distance is 12% longer than my session.

What are the pros and cons of switching to GPS on WorkOutDoors for distance (instead of Apple)?

Thanks in advance!

Reply

The main advantage of Apple's pedometer-based approach is that it works in tunnels, dense forests etc. The disadvantage is that it needs good calibration.

So you probably need to recalibrate the pedometer as described here: https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT204516.

If the recalibration doesn't work (Apple's pedometer just doesn't work for some people) then you can switch the app to use GPS to determine distance.

When Apple's distances are as massively wrong as you are seeing then it usually means that you have done something strange to confuse watchOS. Have you maybe done a different activity (in any app) and told the watch that it was a running activity? I have heard of people doing skateboarding or cross country skiing but have told the watch they were running. This has then made the watch think they have the wrong running stride length, which has affected the distance estimates.

 

[MarcellusChan]

The main advantage of Apple's pedometer-based approach is that it works in tunnels, dense forests etc. The disadvantage is that it needs good calibration.

So you probably need to recalibrate the pedometer as described here: https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT204516.

If the recalibration doesn't work (Apple's pedometer just doesn't work for some people) then you can switch the app to use GPS to determine distance.

When Apple's distances are as massively wrong as you are seeing then it usually means that you have done something strange to confuse watchOS. Have you maybe done a different activity (in any app) and told the watch that it was a running activity? I have heard of people doing skateboarding or cross country skiing but have told the watch they were running. This has then made the watch think they have the wrong running stride length, which has affected the distance estimates.

Thanks for the prompt response. Will try to recalibrate as first course of action.

 

[pina]

is it still not possible to backup my workouts? I need to reinstall my iPhone but it would be a shame if I would lose all my workouts in the app. I know it‘s still in apple health but it lacks many details from the workouts in the app…

if i would export it via another app and import it back to the app would be also a solution

 

[cfc]

is it still not possible to backup my workouts? I need to reinstall my iPhone but it would be a shame if I would lose all my workouts in the app. I know it‘s still in apple health but it lacks many details from the workouts in the app…

if i would export it via another app and import it back to the app would be also a solution

If you choose not to restore from a full backup of the old phone then you can use Apple's File Sharing to copy the data from the old phone to a computer and then to copy it from there to the new phone:

https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT201301 (Windows)
https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT210598 (MacOS)

 

[pina]

If you choose not to restore from a full backup of the old phone then you can use Apple's File Sharing to copy the data from the old phone to a computer and then to copy it from there to the new phone:

https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT201301 (Windows)
https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT210598 (MacOS)

Works like a charm!

 

[kabzior]

I have a favour to ask the good folks on these forums. I am currently working on adding turn by turn navigation for GPX routes that contain directions. Unfortunately there isn't really a standard for storing directions in a GPX file, so every system does it slightly differently.

This means that it would be very useful for me to see some sample GPX files containing navigation waypoints. So if you use a particular app/website to create GPX files that contain turn by turn navigation then please could you send some sample files to info@workoutDoors.net. I will then try to ensure that WOD supports turn by turn navigation for GPX files created by that app or website.

Thanks!

Do you already have enough data?
Probably komoot and other similar ones have already been checked off, but I can send you files from the mapa.cz system (I have recommended it many times, very intuitive and convenient and completely free) and from the Suunto application (which surprisingly is also completely free). I use both regularly.

I will be happy to help because I have been an ardent advocate of the upcoming changes for many months

I don't want to interfere with your vision, but if I can make a suggestion - some systems, to my knowledge, use the WayPoints system for TBT navigation (Suunto did this for some time), which is a huge inconvenience. The way it worked was that each turn or change of direction was marked in the GPX file as a WP with an icon and a comment, which works great provided you want to receive all these dozens/hundreds of notifications. However, if you are only interested in the list of WPs you have added (water, shelter, summit, finish line) and notifications for them, it's a huge pain, because it's all or nothing. I hope this won't be the case in WOD

Let me know if you still need GPX files. Good luck in work

 

[cfc]

Do you already have enough data?
Probably komoot and other similar ones have already been checked off, but I can send you files from the mapa.cz system (I have recommended it many times, very intuitive and convenient and completely free) and from the Suunto application (which surprisingly is also completely free). I use both regularly.

I will be happy to help because I have been an ardent advocate of the upcoming changes for many months

I don't want to interfere with your vision, but if I can make a suggestion - some systems, to my knowledge, use the WayPoints system for TBT navigation (Suunto did this for some time), which is a huge inconvenience. The way it worked was that each turn or change of direction was marked in the GPX file as a WP with an icon and a comment, which works great provided you want to receive all these dozens/hundreds of notifications. However, if you are only interested in the list of WPs you have added (water, shelter, summit, finish line) and notifications for them, it's a huge pain, because it's all or nothing. I hope this won't be the case in WOD

Let me know if you still need GPX files. Good luck in work

Any GPX files with turn by turn would be great. Or TCX or FIT because I have added them as route sources because so few GPX files seemed to have TBT.

At the moment I am assuming that the directions in GPX files are in waypoints. How else could they be stored? If you have any examples then that would be great.

 

[kabzior]

OK, flashbacks, I was wrong again, just like years ago when Suunto introduced this function and we all kept confusing WPs with POIs.

Of course, you are right that navigation (when based on an uploaded GPX file) must be implemented via WPs. Initially, Sunnto did not introduce POIs and only allowed you to add your own WPs, which meant that you either had the distance/time to your places (like a summit or a shelter) and notifications about them along with a hundred notifications about turns, or nothing at all. It was simply unusable. Then they separated WP and POI and everything started working as it should.

I have never expressed interest in "full" TBT navigation filled with WPs because in my opinion it is overloaded with notifications, when it is enough to remember that, for example, I am trekking on the red trail all the time and I do not need notification at each fork, if when planning the route something looks like it would be unclear, I simply add there a POI with information, e.g. "turn right".

Another aspect is that some systems can generate turn notifications themselves, but only if the routing is done directly on them, and not when they are fed with a GPX file.

Anyway, to sum up, after over a decade of using tourist navigation, I have come to the following conclusions about what is most important (for me, YMMV):
- WPs are rather useless
- the system should accept a clean GPX file (without WP) and allow POIs to be added to it (because many websites have problems with exporting GPX with POIs)
- the system should know where I am on the given route from the GPX file and, based on this, calculate the distance/time to the POI and the end of the route in real time

I don't know if you are planning to implement route creation in the phone application, if not, it is probably important to import both WP and POI (although, as I wrote above, many websites have problems with exporting GPX from POI). I am sending you by email two files, they are the same route, one is from mapa.cz (which does not allow POI import) and the other is from Suunto/SportsTracker - there are POIs here.

If I may mention one more thing - I remember that a huge problem for Suunto developers when introducing navigation was for the system to recognize which direction you are moving in, because you can go back for a while while on the route, or even turn around altogether. Many GPX files and saved activity files were posted to the forum (in those days developers actively worked with users, just like you do here today ) and many versions of the software were updated before the system learned to interpret it correctly.

PS - if you have a moment, download the Suunto application, it is free, you don't need a watch to see how routing, accepting GPX files, adding POIs to them and possibly exporting them works. Of all the systems, it seems to me that this is currently the best refined and at the same time the simplest.
Additionally, it is apparently compatible with some POI system (because there is a specification for it) and uses these standardized icons and descriptions when adding POIs, like this:

 

[cfc]

OK, flashbacks, I was wrong again, just like years ago when Suunto introduced this function and we all kept confusing WPs with POIs.

Of course, you are right that navigation (when based on an uploaded GPX file) must be implemented via WPs. Initially, Sunnto did not introduce POIs and only allowed you to add your own WPs, which meant that you either had the distance/time to your places (like a summit or a shelter) and notifications about them along with a hundred notifications about turns, or nothing at all. It was simply unusable. Then they separated WP and POI and everything started working as it should.

I have never expressed interest in "full" TBT navigation filled with WPs because in my opinion it is overloaded with notifications, when it is enough to remember that, for example, I am trekking on the red trail all the time and I do not need notification at each fork, if when planning the route something looks like it would be unclear, I simply add there a POI with information, e.g. "turn right".

Another aspect is that some systems can generate turn notifications themselves, but only if the routing is done directly on them, and not when they are fed with a GPX file.

Anyway, to sum up, after over a decade of using tourist navigation, I have come to the following conclusions about what is most important (for me, YMMV):
- WPs are rather useless
- the system should accept a clean GPX file (without WP) and allow POIs to be added to it (because many websites have problems with exporting GPX with POIs)
- the system should know where I am on the given route from the GPX file and, based on this, calculate the distance/time to the POI and the end of the route in real time

I don't know if you are planning to implement route creation in the phone application, if not, it is probably important to import both WP and POI (although, as I wrote above, many websites have problems with exporting GPX from POI). I am sending you by email two files, they are the same route, one is from mapa.cz (which does not allow POI import) and the other is from Suunto/SportsTracker - there are POIs here.

If I may mention one more thing - I remember that a huge problem for Suunto developers when introducing navigation was for the system to recognize which direction you are moving in, because you can go back for a while while on the route, or even turn around altogether. Many GPX files and saved activity files were posted to the forum (in those days developers actively worked with users, just like you do here today ) and many versions of the software were updated before the system learned to interpret it correctly.

PS - if you have a moment, download the Suunto application, it is free, you don't need a watch to see how routing, accepting GPX files, adding POIs to them and possibly exporting them works. Of all the systems, it seems to me that this is currently the best refined and at the same time the simplest.
Additionally, it is apparently compatible with some POI system (because there is a specification for it) and uses these standardized icons and descriptions when adding POIs, like this:

View attachment 2377240

Thanks for the files. The app will allow you to create waypoints on a blank route (as well as create them during a workout). It will also know where you are and calculate the distance/time/ascent to the next POI on the route and to the end of the route.

I don't plan to implement route calculation on the phone because it would require me to pay for a server, which isn't economic with the app's business model of a one-off payment. I did spend several weeks investigating the possibility of implementing it based on the data that the app uses to display the map, but unfortunately that was missing key information (e.g. turn restrictions).

Checking for when people turn around etc is something I will try to implement. I am actually looking into that now.

Thanks for the Suunto example. I loaded it into the app and the waypoints were displayed nicely but the app did not recognise their POI types (e.g. cafe, summit). I have Googled and found a list of their types so I will implement as many of them as I can (in terms of showing a relevant icon).

 

[Drock1119]

I saw there was mention of this before, but any timeline on adding a calibration distance for the treadmill?

 

[cfc]

I saw there was mention of this before, but any timeline on adding a calibration distance for the treadmill?

It's one of those moderately requested features that is in the middle of my to-do list, so it's not in my immediate plans but I will probably look into it at some time in the future.

It may be too much work because Apple don't allow workouts to be edited afterwards and I use their "live workout builder" system, which does a lot of the work for me, and which saves data as it goes along. So to change the data that has already been saved may require a custom approach to creating and saving the workouts instead of using that system.

If so then I may consider it too much work for a moderately requested feature and that my time is better spent elsewhere. However I haven't properly investigated it yet, so I could be wrong.

 

[kabzior]

Thanks for the files. The app will allow you to create waypoints on a blank route (as well as create them during a workout). It will also know where you are and calculate the distance/time/ascent to the next POI on the route and to the end of the route.

The app will allow to create WPs or POIs (or both)?

In any case, I see that this is heading towards the navigation of my dreams, which I have been thinking about for a decade, so I am very positive

I don't plan to implement route calculation on the phone because it would require me to pay for a server, which isn't economic with the app's business model of a one-off payment. I did spend several weeks investigating the possibility of implementing it based on the data that the app uses to display the map, but unfortunately that was missing key information (e.g. turn restrictions).

Routing is not a problem, there are tons of applications for this, I have like 5 of them installed all the time, these days applications allow you to export GPX (it used to be that only websites were allowed to do this) and send directly to WOD or save to iCloud for import.
I don't know anything about creating applications, but I noticed that, for example, komoot uses OSM, Suunto - Mapbox, mapy.cz its in-house proprietary map, but SportsTracker uses Apple maps for routing (which are less than perfect, but better than nothing) - in that case you also have to pay for the server? It doesn't happen locally on the device (since it allows routing even when offline)?

Checking for when people turn around etc is something I will try to implement. I am actually looking into that now.

If you encounter significant problems, I can give you the contact details of one of the Suunto developers who dealt with it at the time, a very nice and helpful person, maybe he will be able to give you some tips.

Thanks for the Suunto example. I loaded it into the app and the waypoints were displayed nicely but the app did not recognise their POI types (e.g. cafe, summit). I have Googled and found a list of their types so I will implement as many of them as I can (in terms of showing a relevant icon).

Personally, I think that the key element is to provide the ability to add POIs in WOD, due to the fact that not all services allow POI export (and if so, they can do it according to different standards), it is best to add these few POIs yourself to a clean route and have certainty that they have not been lost or tampered with in any way during import.

 

[cfc]

The app will allow to create WPs or POIs (or both)?

In any case, I see that this is heading towards the navigation of my dreams, which I have been thinking about for a decade, so I am very positive



Routing is not a problem, there are tons of applications for this, I have like 5 of them installed all the time, these days applications allow you to export GPX (it used to be that only websites were allowed to do this) and send directly to WOD or save to iCloud for import.
I don't know anything about creating applications, but I noticed that, for example, komoot uses OSM, Suunto - Mapbox, mapy.cz its in-house proprietary map, but SportsTracker uses Apple maps for routing (which are less than perfect, but better than nothing) - in that case you also have to pay for the server? It doesn't happen locally on the device (since it allows routing even when offline)?



If you encounter significant problems, I can give you the contact details of one of the Suunto developers who dealt with it at the time, a very nice and helpful person, maybe he will be able to give you some tips.



Personally, I think that the key element is to provide the ability to add POIs in WOD, due to the fact that not all services allow POI export (and if so, they can do it according to different standards), it is best to add these few POIs yourself to a clean route and have certainty that they have not been lost or tampered with in any way during import.

At the moment the app does not distinguish waypoints and POIs, but it does deal with them differently depending on whether or not they are on the route. However now that you are asking then I may reconsider that and explicitly call them different things. I will have a think about that.

Apple's map system is free so I plan to look into it to create routes, but not for the next version. I used Apple's maps a lot for a previous app and the off-road trail coverage was almost non-existent back then, but it does seem to have improved so may be useful.

 

[kabzior]

At the moment the app does not distinguish waypoints and POIs, but it does deal with them differently depending on whether or not they are on the route. However now that you are asking then I may reconsider that and explicitly call them different things. I will have a think about that.

This is an interesting issue from the point of view of simplicity. I know it took me ages to learn the difference between WPs and POIs, and I still confuse them, so it's unnecessary chaos for users. On the other hand, however, IMO it is a complete must for the user to be able to choose whether he wants to have on the map and be notified only about POIs or about POIs and WPs, because without this choice navigation is futile. So there must be some distinction between them.
Maybe "navigation points" and "remaining points"? But I guess WPs and POIs are better...
Or maybe "use all navigation waypoints" vs "use only user-added waypoints"?

 

[cfc]

This is an interesting issue from the point of view of simplicity. I know it took me ages to learn the difference between WPs and POIs, and I still confuse them, so it's unnecessary chaos for users. On the other hand, however, IMO it is a complete must for the user to be able to choose whether he wants to have on the map and be notified only about POIs or about POIs and WPs, because without this choice navigation is futile. So there must be some distinction between them.
Maybe "navigation points" and "remaining points"? But I guess WPs and POIs are better...
Or maybe "use all navigation waypoints" vs "use only user-added waypoints"?

When I am unsure in situations like this then I usually start with the simple approach and then adapt it in response to feedback during beta testing. So I may just start with "on-route" and "off-route" waypoints and see what people think.

 

[Project Speedforce]

I'm a Stryd nextgen power meter user and often run with both an Apple Watch Ultra and Garmin Epix Pro. I have been experiencing a power lap averaging anomaly where only the first lap (or interval) of a workout on the WOD app reports an average ~10-15W low by the end of the lap/interval. At the beginning of the lap/interval, the average power delta is much larger ~40-50W. After the first lap/interval, lap/power averages match closely to my Garmin comparison watch. After the workout, the WOD phone app reports the same low power average for first lap/interval but when I export the fit file from the WOD phone app and view in WKO5 the 1st lap average power matches my Garmin watch.

Does anyone have guidance on a app setting that I may be using that could cause just the 1st lap/interval to report a low power.

 

[cfc]

I'm a Stryd nextgen power meter user and often run with both an Apple Watch Ultra and Garmin Epix Pro. I have been experiencing a power lap averaging anomaly where only the first lap (or interval) of a workout on the WOD app reports an average ~10-15W low by the end of the lap/interval. At the beginning of the lap/interval, the average power delta is much larger ~40-50W. After the first lap/interval, lap/power averages match closely to my Garmin comparison watch. After the workout, the WOD phone app reports the same low power average for first lap/interval but when I export the fit file from the WOD phone app and view in WKO5 the 1st lap average power matches my Garmin watch.

Does anyone have guidance on a app setting that I may be using that could cause just the 1st lap/interval to report a low power.

I have never heard of that before. So the data shown in WOD after a workout matches what you saw during a workout but is different when exported to WKO5, but the values shown in WKO5 match what your Garmin is showing?

Is your Garmin also connected to the Stryd, or is it calculating the power in some other way?

My first thought is that it is an issue with the app not ignoring zero power values when calculating averages. It should be doing that, and a quick look at the code seems to confirm that it is correctly ignoring them. However it would explain the average values being lower, and would also be more likely at the start where the Stryd may take a while to report values.

I would be surprised if that is the issue because no-one else has reported it in the past, but I have been surprised many times before, and I can't think of another explanation.

Out of interest do you see lower values at the start when using the power reported by the watch instead of by Stryd? Testing that would reduce the number of possibilities because it uses a different area of the code.

It may also be worth using the precision start screen (3 dots then Open Workout) and doing a warm up for a few seconds before pressing the start button. This may allow Stryd to start providing values before you start the workout.

Also please could you send the wkt file to info@workoutdoors.net and I will take a look. To do this tap the Export button 3 times quickly.

 

[NicoBse]

Hi CFC,

In previous discussions, you mentioned an IOS application that would replicate the functions of WOD on the Apple Watch. Is this still in the works? If so, when can we expect it?

Thank you for your work,

Nicolas

 

[cfc]

Hi CFC,

In previous discussions, you mentioned an IOS application that would replicate the functions of WOD on the Apple Watch. Is this still in the works? If so, when can we expect it?

Thank you for your work,

Nicolas

Mirroring to the iPhone is still on my To-Do list, but lower down than other features like navigation, custom activity types and interval schedule improvements. So it is unlikely in the next year or so. Sorry about that.

 

[Tonius_eats_pho]

Hey CFC,

I just switched from a Garmin watch to an Apple Watch Ultra and found out that WorkOutDoors gives me everything that I need!
But unfortunately I am not able to get the syncing of offline maps working between my phone and watch.
I tried everything stated on the user guide (reststarting watch and phone, reinstalling watch app). When enabling communication logs in the settings->file management, I also get an error (Map Tiles: Error saving batched map file on watch). Disabling batch download also didn’t help unfortunately. The downloads are stuck at 1%.

Does anyone have an idea what else I could do?

 

[cfc]

Hey CFC,

I just switched from a Garmin watch to an Apple Watch Ultra and found out that WorkOutDoors gives me everything that I need!
But unfortunately I am not able to get the syncing of offline maps working between my phone and watch.
I tried everything stated on the user guide (reststarting watch and phone, reinstalling watch app). When enabling communication logs in the settings->file management, I also get an error (Map Tiles: Error saving batched map file on watch). Disabling batch download also didn’t help unfortunately. The downloads are stuck at 1%.

Does anyone have an idea what else I could do?

Sorry that you are having problems transferring maps. Apple have broken something in iOS 17.5 such that the iPhone app no longer gets informed when the map files have been transferred to the watch.

The maps are actually getting transferred, and are usable on the watch, but it doesn't look like they have been transferred because the iPhone app is not being informed. So you will probably find that the maps actually work fine when you try to use them when offline on the watch.

Several developers have complained about this on Apple's forums, and submitted bug reports, so hopefully they will fix it soon.

In the meantime I have possibly worked around it in a beta if you want to try that? If so then please email me at info@workoutdoors.net. I can't guarantee that it works because it is very early days and no-one who has tried it so far has reported back. When someone does then I will probably roll it out to all beta testers.

In the new beta the watch app now explicitly sends a message to the iPhone app to confirm that the maps have been transferred, instead of relying on iOS to do it, as it should do and which it did in the past.

It's getting to the stage where I will probably need to release a bug-fix release to the App Store, not only for this workaround but also for the always on display workaround for the problems introduced in watchOS 10.4. I was trying to avoid this because a release is usually quite time consuming and I am trying to focus on the navigation coding, but it is looking more and more necessary.

 

[Tonius_eats_pho]

Sorry that you are having problems transferring maps. Apple have broken something in iOS 17.5 such that the iPhone app no longer gets informed when the map files have been transferred to the watch.

The maps are actually getting transferred, and are usable on the watch, but it doesn't look like they have been transferred because the iPhone app is not being informed. So you will probably find that the maps actually work fine when you try to use them when offline on the watch.

Several developers have complained about this on Apple's forums, and submitted bug reports, so hopefully they will fix it soon.

In the meantime I have possibly worked around it in a beta if you want to try that? If so then please email me at info@workoutdoors.net. I can't guarantee that it works because it is very early days and no-one who has tried it so far has reported back. When someone does then I will probably roll it out to all beta testers.

In the new beta the watch app now explicitly sends a message to the iPhone app to confirm that the maps have been transferred, instead of relying on iOS to do it, as it should do and which it did in the past.

It's getting to the stage where I will probably need to release a bug-fix release to the App Store, not only for this workaround but also for the always on display workaround for the problems introduced in watchOS 10.4. I was trying to avoid this because a release is usually quite time consuming and I am trying to focus on the navigation coding, but it is looking more and more necessary.

Hey CFC, thanks for the answer! This explains why I could navigate yesterday when trying

I already wrote you and got access to the beta. With that fix, I can confirm, that the transfer of maps is visualized correctly. Thanks a lot!!!

 

[Dovales]

It's getting to the stage where I will probably need to release a bug-fix release to the App Store, not only for this workaround but also for the always on display workaround for the problems introduced in watchOS 10.4.

The always on problem was resolved for me, at the moment, after updating do WatchOS 10.5 a few days ago.

 

[cfc]

Hey CFC, thanks for the answer! This explains why I could navigate yesterday when trying

I already wrote you and got access to the beta. With that fix, I can confirm, that the transfer of maps is visualized correctly. Thanks a lot!!!

That's good to hear. Thanks for testing that.