Yosemite looks terrible!

[grahamperrin]

Yosemite redefining – not Apple maintaining – the elements essential to Mac

In thread display options a few hours ago I ceased presentation of people's avatars and signatures. The effect is surprising.

Don't you think its a little ridiculous that at Beta 2 and on a major release we're talking about fonts and icons? …

Yes and no.

Without ridicule: I applaud Apple for a bold public experiment; for pushing boundaries.

With some ambivalence: I treat this more as a sixth experiment, than as a second. Moreover I note that Apple had not just months, it had years to prepare human interface guidelines (HIG) for itself before seeding the first developer preview. My primary emotional response is to ridicule Apple for its divisive approach to 'completely new', because its years of preparation should have yielded an early experimental new design that was more acceptable, acceptable to (at least) customers who are familiar with the elements essential to Mac. I do sometimes resort to ridicule, but more often I pause … so, the silent applause can stop the ridicule before the ridicule reaches the page.

… So the frustration here for me is now they are going after the OS, making amateur mistakes again.

I thought, is amateur too strong a word from someone?

Then I thought, is deranged too strong a word from me? I had consciously taken care to use the phrase relatively deranged.

Yeah. If the people at Apple who promoted the design, whilst it was not yet known to the public, are offended by the paragraph below, I can only apologise. I do still believe that the company aims to act upon the real-world customer feedback that it so encourages. So yeah, here's more real ridicule.

Yeah. It is ridiculous that Apple's redesigns of Yosemite led to redefinition – not true maintainence – of at least one essential element of the Mac user experience (UX). Ridiculous because the end result is, for some experienced users, too far removed from what the company set out to create. It's new, but it is not sufficiently easier to use. It is no longer "Completely Mac", and the Apple people who chose to ignore (for example) one of the two things that all windows should have, those people have caused some lasting fallout. "Don’t be tempted to ignore the guidelines that govern the use of these UI elements, because users tend to notice even subtle differences in appearance and behaviour", Apple said to itself. It was entirely predictable that the result of partial ignorance – the unsubtle mash that is Yosemite – would prove divisive, somewhat ridiculous, and might appear somewhat amateurish.

Still, I applaud the company for its bold public experiments! And I'm inching slowly towards a possible return to feedback, although I'll be persona non grata so it probably will not happen.

 

[joedec]

"Don’t be tempted to ignore the guidelines that govern the use of these UI elements, because users tend to notice even subtle differences in appearance and behaviour", Apple said to itself.

That's a great quote. That passion we feel for these machines is because the developers paid such close attention to the user.

"Everyone wants an iPhone, but it would be impossible to design an iPhone in China because it's not a product; it's an understanding of human nature."

-- Ai Weiwei

Read more at http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/keywords/human_nature_4.html#SB2R8EEsPp5by1qP.99

 

[joedec]

I have to say that the overall rendering of fonts from PB1 -> PB2 has improved drastically. Fonts look much more like Mavericks than the weird garbled mess of PB1.

Definitely. They also fixed the bug where intermittently you couldn't show tabs and favorites at the same time in Safari. Nice fix for those of us who prefer to see web page titles all the time.

Some other things I noticed broken now working

1. Mail crashes when you show Previous Recipients
2. Search fails in Launchpad
3. Reminders, Open in New Window fails
4. Missing Do Not Disturb control in Notification Center
5. Weather displays incorrectly when expanded in Notification Center

4 of 5 are regressions. Now if only they get the contrast right. Light backgrounds don't work well. For some reason they fade the font here.

 

[MagnusVonMagnum]

I am absolutely positive that Metal (in this or other form) will come to OS X. There is nothing about Metal which makes it chipset-specific.

From what I gather, OpenGL and Direct3D are both also trying to make less driver overhead. The difference is Apple controls iOS like a security guard for the Queen's jewels and seems to actually care about its performance whereas traditionally, at least, Apple hasn't given two turds about OS X's 3D performance even with companies like Aspyr begging for certain features and cooperation. I just don't see Apple bothering with an OpenGL "replacement" API when they can't even be bothered to keep OpenGL up-to-date (they're at 4.1 when it's at 4.5) even when someone else is doing most of the work. They're making money off iOS games, though so there's their incentive to make it better. I doubt they sell a small fraction of the number of games for the Mac on the App store and they don't get a share of games sold elsewhere (not even possible on iOS without jailbreaking). In short, I wouldn't count on Metal ever appearing in OS X. They would just state OpenGL compatibility is the way to go (and might be if they'd keep it and their drivers up-to-date and optimized instead of write once and then ignore forever).

 

[joedec]

From what I gather, OpenGL and Direct3D are both also trying to make less driver overhead. The difference is Apple controls iOS like a security guard for the Queen's jewels and seems to actually care about its performance whereas traditionally, at least, Apple hasn't given two turds about OS X's 3D performance even with companies like Aspyr begging for certain features and cooperation. I just don't see Apple bothering with an OpenGL "replacement" API when they can't even be bothered to keep OpenGL up-to-date (they're at 4.1 when it's at 4.5) even when someone else is doing most of the work. They're making money off iOS games, though so there's their incentive to make it better. I doubt they sell a small fraction of the number of games for the Mac on the App store and they don't get a share of games sold elsewhere (not even possible on iOS without jailbreaking). In short, I wouldn't count on Metal ever appearing in OS X. They would just state OpenGL compatibility is the way to go (and might be if they'd keep it and their drivers up-to-date and optimized instead of write once and then ignore forever).

I agree.

Metal on Intel boxes, no, even if they go there it may not perform any better.

If you really look at what Apple is doing, Metal only preforms better than OpenGL because is optimized for A7, essentially ditching all the legacy code OpenGL supports.

There's a good article at;

http://appleinsider.com/articles/14...k-the-secret-graphics-performance-the-a7-chip

 

[leman]

From what I gather, OpenGL and Direct3D are both also trying to make less driver overhead.

...

In short, I wouldn't count on Metal ever appearing in OS X. They would just state OpenGL compatibility is the way to go (and might be if they'd keep it and their drivers up-to-date and optimized instead of write once and then ignore forever).

If you really look at what Apple is doing, Metal only preforms better than OpenGL because is optimized for A7, essentially ditching all the legacy code OpenGL supports.

We already had this discussion in a different thread, and I see absolutely zero indication that Metal has anything to do with A7. Looking at the specs, its a general-purpose 3D API which express all of the things OpenGL can (save for some shader stages) — but avoids the overhead. As I said before, in its current form OpenGL is extremely complicated, ugly and dysfunctional. The state machine semantics of OpenGL was developed in the beginning of the nineties and is extremely outdated by today's standards. And while 4.5 is looking much better, it still brings ton of ballast, making both driver development and application development a buggy mess. The API needs a complete reboot. Which the committee has botched number of times.

Obviously, I cannot predict the future and I am not arrogant enough to claim that I know Apple's plans. But introducing Metal on OS X would make so much sense. It will make development easier, drivers more stabler. The OpenGL is not going anywhere — the 4.1 target can be easily supported as a wrapper around Metal. Heck, I am ready to write one.

 

[MartinAppleGuy]

We already had this discussion in a different thread, and I see absolutely zero indication that Metal has anything to do with A7. Looking at the specs, its a general-purpose 3D API which express all of the things OpenGL can (save for some shader stages) — but avoids the overhead. As I said before, in its current form OpenGL is extremely complicated, ugly and dysfunctional. The state machine semantics of OpenGL was developed in the beginning of the nineties and is extremely outdated by today's standards. And while 4.5 is looking much better, it still brings ton of bailouts, making both driver development and application development a buggy mess. The API needs a complete reboot. Which the committee has botched number of times.

Obviously, I cannot predict the future and I am not arrogant enough to claim that I know Apple's plans. But introducing Metal on OS X would make so much sense. It will make development easier, drivers more stabler. The OpenGL is not going anywhere — the 4.1 target can be easily supported as a wrapper around Metal. Heck, I am ready to write one.

There has been a lot of talk going about (both here and on gaming sites) that Yosemite has increased there gaming performance by around 30%. Don't who where this is coming from, but it seems consistent across low end GPU's (HD 5000) to high end like the D500 and D700 GPU's on the new Mac Pro.

 

[leman]

There has been a lot of talk going about (both here and on gaming sites) that Yosemite has increased there gaming performance by around 30%. Don't who where this is coming from, but it seems consistent across low end GPU's (HD 5000) to high end like the D500 and D700 GPU's on the new Mac Pro.

I did some benchmarking and there is indeed an increase, but not of 30%. Real games might differ. I guess its time to start playing Guild Wars 2 again And - 30% increase would put OS X on even terms with Windows.

 

[MartinAppleGuy]

I did some benchmarking and there is indeed an increase, but not of 30%. Real games might differ. I guess its time to start playing Guild Wars 2 again And - 30% increase would put OS X on even terms with Windows.

Well that is not all that hard to believe (in terms of Apple doing that). This was taken from actual games, not benchmarks. I have read of people having the 30% increase on Intel HD 5000, Intel Iris, Nvidia GeForce GT 750m, and dual FirePro D500's.

I will test it myself (using X-Plane) when I upgrade to get an exact figure as X-Plane let's you save situations so I will note such a situation then compare it to Yosemite.

 

[leman]

I would like to admit that I stand corrected. I have stumbled on some direct indication that Apple indeed dos not intend to use Metal for OS X. I believe its a shame, but that is how things are. I hope that Khronos will make something good out of OpenGL NextGen. With current OpenGL specs, I am afraid, buggy drivers with idiosyncratic behaviour will continue to exist.

 

[nontroppo]

@leman: all we can hope for is that the graphics specalist engineers for Metal (who finally seem to know something about GPU APIs) when they've finished on iOS, will move on to the OS X team. As a visual neuroscientist who uses an OpenGL toolkit for doing Psychophysical research, OS X has got worse and worse graphics wise on every release, so much so that many researchers who once considered OS X as the best platform for psychophysical research are being forced to migrate to Linux... And why are Apple incapable of 10bit display support!?!?!?!

This major bit-rot (in terms of GPU / driver problems) in core parts of the OS puts the minor UI twiddles in Yosemite into stark perspective...

 

[leman]

As a visual neuroscientist who uses an OpenGL toolkit for doing Psychophysical research, OS X has got worse and worse graphics wise on every release, so much so that many researchers who once considered OS X as the best platform for psychophysical research are being forced to migrate to Linux...

I find this really curious because Apple's OpenGL support was always subpar (as far as gaming is concerned). Besides, it has improved with every subsequent release of OS X. I would guess that you are using volume rendering. What exactly do you find insufficient for your purpose?

And why are Apple incapable of 10bit display support!?!?!?!

I think there is simply not enough general interest... I do hope that in near future we will get monitors that can support true high dynamic range and then all color calculations and output can be done in floating point. The GPU are powerful enough for this. Its the display tech that holds us back...

 

[nontroppo]

I find this really curious because Apple's OpenGL support was always subpar (as far as gaming is concerned). Besides, it has improved with every subsequent release of OS X.

The most important thing for scientists is consistent timing, and the toolkit we use (Psychophysics toolbox/PTB, an Matlab wrapper to OpenGL, used by the vast majority of vision researchers), goes to great lengths to guarantee consistent timing (Windows has never had good timing, even if it may be considered best for gaming). Around the time of Tiger, OS X has much better latency control (less variable) than either Windows or Linux. Mario the developer used Apple APIs, not necessarily just OpenGL, to measure timing variances (we need to know which frame is dropped, synchronisation to equipment is critical on a per frame basis). OS X in each release has broken or deprecated APIs used, dumbing down the control available. And more and more bugs have accumulated. For Linux, Mario can just ask the open source developers if there's an issue, or fix the drivers himself. For OS X it is Radar bugs reports and the well known black hole of apple engineering. Mario's submitted so many bugs that were ignored he just gave up. Currently the last stand for us is to use a custom kernel extension that works round the bugs and limitations, but Yosemite may kill even this band aid.

Gamers don't care about latency or timing variability, only general sustained frame rates; scientific research critically depends on them.

OS X, sadly, is much less a research grade OS than it was...

----
Mario's kernel extension actually enables 10bit output for some AMD cards as he injects support at the kernel level (if a PhD student can do this, so can Apple!). And for researchers, luminance range extension is critical, we need very precise control of contrast. Oh, and perhaps surprising to you but vision scientists still dominantly use CRTs -- precise deterministic timing and analog control of luminance...

 

[FrtzPeter]

One of the download sites for iPhone software indicated that 34% of the people that did initial iOS 7 downloads came back, did a reversal, and went back to iOS 6. I think that fact and declining iPad sales, which aren't tied to phone contracts are a true indication of the "new" designs actual popularity.

At this point I'd have to call Yosemite the dumbest looking user interface I've seen. If I had to rate OS versions anything before Yosemite would probably rate 4 or 5 stars with me, with Yosemite getting a big fat "1".

 

[ABC5S]

Been using PB 2 for a short time and have to say its mighty fine by me. Like the fonts, color scheme, and the folders. No complaints here Far as Safari and the new Favorite design where one can create a folder, transfer links to it and click the arrow to open that folder only, which opens below showing the sites one placed there until I close it, is tidier than the old way. Safari is faster as well for me.

 

[DesterWallaboo]

One of the download sites for iPhone software indicated that 34% of the people that did initial iOS 7 downloads came back, did a reversal, and went back to iOS 6. I think that fact and declining iPad sales, which aren't tied to phone contracts are a true indication of the "new" designs actual popularity.

At this point I'd have to call Yosemite the dumbest looking user interface I've seen. If I had to rate OS versions anything before Yosemite would probably rate 4 or 5 stars with me, with Yosemite getting a big fat "1".

From what I've read.... iOS 7 install is sitting around 91% of iDevices.

 

[MagnusVonMagnum]

From what I've read.... iOS 7 install is sitting around 91% of iDevices.

I guess you didn't understand what he was saying. He's saying the ONLY reason iOS7 has been adopted is because you're FORCED to use it with newer models and/or when software dries up for the older OS version. In other words, that adoption rate has NOTHING to do with people liking the "looks" of iOS7 but rather they forced to either use it or go to another product entirely, which is pretty extreme for just the appearance of the GUI. 91% adoption doesn't mean people didn't prefer the look of iOS6. Honestly, I don't know how anyone could ever infer the other when graphics of the GUI are trivial to most people compared to overall usability, functionality and software availability. That doesn't mean people can't complain to Apple that their GUI guy clearly has a head injury.

 

[joedec]

I guess you didn't understand what he was saying. He's saying the ONLY reason iOS7 has been adopted is because you're FORCED to use it with newer models and/or when software dries up for the older OS version. In other words, that adoption rate has NOTHING to do with people liking the "looks" of iOS7 but rather they forced to either use it or go to another product entirely, which is pretty extreme for just the appearance of the GUI. 91% adoption doesn't mean people didn't prefer the look of iOS6. Honestly, I don't know how anyone could ever infer the other when graphics of the GUI are trivial to most people compared to overall usability, functionality and software availability. That doesn't mean people can't complain to Apple that their GUI guy clearly has a head injury.

I think if its free, adoption is greatly improved. For example how many people would fork out $129 for Yosemite. I may or may not, and I bought a lot of Apple software, I used to buy Family license. This release just seems too light on technology and stripping away features does not me happy.

If you're impressed with Handoff and Continuity, keep in mind a lot of that functionality worked in past releases and was stripped out. I used to dial and answer my Sony BT phone from the Mac, using the native software.

 

[BaldiMac]

One of the download sites for iPhone software indicated that 34% of the people that did initial iOS 7 downloads came back, did a reversal, and went back to iOS 6.

It's funny what people are willing to believe when it supports their point. As pointed out, 91% adoption rate says that this statistic is incorrect.

(Who even downloads iOS from a download site?)

I think that fact and declining iPad sales, which aren't tied to phone contracts are a true indication of the "new" designs actual popularity.

So, just to be clear, any negative statistics are a "true indication", but any positive statistics are not. This is what we call "selection bias".

 

[Great4447H52]

Yosemit and 2D Character

Hello.

I have been an Mac OS X user since Jaguar and have enjoyed the progression of the desktop which became more 3D in its look. That presented the idea of character and dimension. I lived in Yosemite National Park for 8 years... in no way is Yosemite "Flat".
When I saw the similarity to Windose 8, I was astounded!
My guess is that Steve Jobs would not appreciate the flatness and similarities of Windose 8, which looks cartoonish and non functional. My understanding of Apple was the leader in Unique Artistic Endevours.

I hope you will at least have the option.... to choose a 3D Desktop if one chooses. Our society is not flat. Let hope there is a little 3D character left in this world.

Regards...

 

[joedec]

Hello.

I have been an Mac OS X user since Jaguar and have enjoyed the progression of the desktop which became more 3D in its look. That presented the idea of character and dimension. I lived in Yosemite National Park for 8 years... in no way is Yosemite "Flat".
When I saw the similarity to Windose 8, I was astounded!
My guess is that Steve Jobs would not appreciate the flatness and similarities of Windose 8, which looks cartoonish and non functional. My understanding of Apple was the leader in Unique Artistic Endevours.

I hope you will at least have the option.... to choose a 3D Desktop if one chooses. Our society is not flat. Let hope there is a little 3D character left in this world.

Regards...

That's funny, never thought about it that way, they should have called it "Mojave"

 

[MagnusVonMagnum]

It's funny what people are willing to believe when it supports their point. As pointed out, 91% adoption rate says that this statistic is incorrect.

Hey, just ignore whatever facts get in your way.

He said initially (as in when it first came out), 33% that downloaded software from a certain iOS software site (i.e. implying jailbreaked) came back and downloaded the software again using iOS6 (i.e. they went to iOS7 and then rolled back and downloaded the iOS6 software again), thus indicating 1/3 of people getting software from that software site (jailbreaked site) went back to iOS6 after trying iOS7 out.

Who gets iOS from a download site??? He didn't say they got iOS from a download site! He said they got iOS7 downloads (i.e. software using iOS7, thus indicating it's a software site for iOS and since they required jailbreak status to get software from anyone but Apple since Apple has a MONOPOLY on software distribution for iOS without jailbreaks, it must be a jailbreak. See? That's a logical deduction. It takes a little reading between the lines.

So, just to be clear, any negative statistics are a "true indication", but any positive statistics are not. This is what we call "selection bias".

You would know.

 

[mabaker]

Hello.

I have been an Mac OS X user since Jaguar and have enjoyed the progression of the desktop which became more 3D in its look. That presented the idea of character and dimension. I lived in Yosemite National Park for 8 years... in no way is Yosemite "Flat".
When I saw the similarity to Windose 8, I was astounded!
My guess is that Steve Jobs would not appreciate the flatness and similarities of Windose 8, which looks cartoonish and non functional. My understanding of Apple was the leader in Unique Artistic Endevours.

I hope you will at least have the option.... to choose a 3D Desktop if one chooses. Our society is not flat. Let hope there is a little 3D character left in this world.

Regards...

Actually everything what your eye sees is 2D, straight-down flat! The 3D effect is your brain's trickery!

 

[BaldiMac]

Hey, just ignore whatever facts get in your way.

I didn't ignore anything. You are just jumping to conclusions.

He said initially (as in when it first came out), 33% that downloaded software from a certain iOS software site (i.e. implying jailbreaked) came back and downloaded the software again using iOS6 (i.e. they went to iOS7 and then rolled back and downloaded the iOS6 software again), thus indicating 1/3 of people getting software from that software site (jailbreaked site) went back to iOS6 after trying iOS7 out.

Who gets iOS from a download site??? He didn't say they got iOS from a download site! He said they got iOS7 downloads (i.e. software using iOS7, thus indicating it's a software site for iOS and since they required jailbreak status to get software from anyone but Apple since Apple has a MONOPOLY on software distribution for iOS without jailbreaks, it must be a jailbreak. See? That's a logical deduction. It takes a little reading between the lines.

Mostly, it takes you restating the post to change the meaning of what was written. Just like you did in your previous post.

(And I love how you managed to work a monopoly accusation into this topic. It brings me back to our first conversations. )

You would know.

Yes. I do understand what selection bias is. You can search for information on it if you would like to know as well. It should be avoided in honest debate.

 

[joshlalonde]

OSX is themeable. Every time I hear someone whine about something that takes 3 seconds to theme I lose a little faith in the average computer user.
(There are some legit complaints about non-themeable/configurable things but even then 3rd party software can often provide a work around)

OMG new folder icons! good thing you can just stick the old flipping pictures in

/System/Library/CoreServices/CoreTypes.bundle/Contents/Resources

to make them look exactly like they used too...

Tell me how to theme it. I'm new to OS X. And anyhow, it's not like I'm whining. I just don't like the new look, and I wanted to know who else doesn't. The attitude most people have is ridiculous. It's not wrong to express their opinion. That doesn't constitute as whining. Anyhow, I would be very obliged if you gave me information on theming OS X. I don't want to pay to theme it either.